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  1. #1

    Need shadow/disc priest help

    Alright. I just got my priest to 80 and I'm trying to gear him up, but I need some info before I do.

    He's currently shadow and will be a shadow/disc dualspec so I'm ideally looking for gear the mixes well with the specs. I intend to get most my hit from trinkets to help with that cross speccing

    Anyway, my questions are: what're the stat priorities for shadow, and what is the rotation?

  2. #2

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    on this site, 3 topics above your post:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=53036.0



  3. #3

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    shadowpriest.com

  4. #4

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    That seems like an awful lot of reading for something that could be summarized as easily as
    int > crit > haste > sp > mp5
    or something to that effect

  5. #5

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    oooookay. I don't want to have to check a spreadsheet for every single piece of gear. Is it just impossible to give a very simple breakdown that is true in general? It isn't for other classes. Holy paladin: int. DK: str. That's it.

    Can anyone give me a general statement instead of an essay to read?

  6. #6

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    SO rather than linking entire sites all anyone needed to do was this:

    * 1 spellpower = 1 PP
    * 1 crit rating = 0.61 PP
    * 1 haste = 0.56 PP
    * 1 spirit = 0.21 PP
    * 1 int = 0.19 PP
    * 1 hit = 1.12 PP (when not hit-capped)

    I'm sure someone knew where that was or could have summarized
    hit (till cap) > SP > crit > haste > spirit > int

    I'm posting it here in case anyone wonders in the future and doesn't want to get links saying "go read entire websites" (oh, and that first thread didn't have that breakdown, just the link to the other website)

  7. #7

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    That is theory craft and requirement for SP. Basically there is no easy way like: put a lot int, crit, sp, haste and im imba. For SP u need to know basic rotation, basic stats etc...

    DID U KNOW:
    When Shadow Word: Pain gets refreshed via Pain and Suffering, it recalculates spell power enhancing buffs, but not Shadow Weaving. The latter means that it's reasonable to wait for 5 stacks of weaving and only then cast SWP, so that it won't be sub-par for the entire fight.

    Meaning both your cycles should use SW: P as your 6th cast, otherwise it does not benefit from Shadow Weaving for the whole fight. That's a significant dps nerf.

  8. #8

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    Quote Originally Posted by Pospani
    That is theory craft and requirement for SP. Basically there is no easy way like: put a lot int, crit, sp, haste and im imba. For SP u need to know basic rotation, basic stats etc...

    DID U KNOW:
    When Shadow Word: Pain gets refreshed via Pain and Suffering, it recalculates spell power enhancing buffs, but not Shadow Weaving. The latter means that it's reasonable to wait for 5 stacks of weaving and only then cast SWP, so that it won't be sub-par for the entire fight.

    Meaning both your cycles should use SW: P as your 6th cast, otherwise it does not benefit from Shadow Weaving for the whole fight. That's a significant dps nerf.
    That IS the basic stats, which I asked for. You're right though, the rotation was in the other thread and was pretty much exactly what I was already doing so I'm not too worried about that.

    If you think ANY class is just "oh put in X stat and you're imba" you need to start actually PLAYING other classes. For every class you need to know your rotation and whatnot to actually be effective.

  9. #9

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    Why should anyone spend time doing your work? Best way to learn your class is playing it and doing research on your own (no, asking people to sum things up for you is not the same).
    Look through shadowpriest.com, there's a hell lot of topics telling you everything you want to know.

  10. #10

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    Quote Originally Posted by Aureact
    Why should anyone spend time doing your work? Best way to learn your class is playing it and doing research on your own (no, asking people to sum things up for you is not the same).
    Look through shadowpriest.com, there's a hell lot of topics telling you everything you want to know.
    Oh, yes. Everyone should do everything the hard way. So, you drive a car you put together yourself? Grow your own food? make your own electricity?

    I asked for very basic information. It could easily have been summarized in 2 lines. I have a 70+ of EVERY CLASS. I have multiple 80s and keep getting more. I'm not going to sit around and read through entire essays on every single class when 90% of the BASIC information can be summarized quickly.

    And guess what, asking for advice IS doing research, despite what you claim. If/when I want the detailed specifics I'd go read those sites. That's not what I was asking for.

    Oh andplaying the class? Maybe I should just mash buttons until I get it perfect. That might take awhile. I know, how about intead I GO TO A FORUM DEDICATED TO MY CLASS AND ASK FOR SOME BASIC ADVICE.

    Oh wait, that's what I did.

    So how about instead of being an arrogant prick you actually be helpful? Thaaaanks.

  11. #11

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    OP:Posted on: July 13, 2009, 04:02:44 am
    Reply #4 on: July 13, 2009, 04:22:40 am
    Reply #5 on: July 13, 2009, 04:29:59 am

    20 mins of looking for others to do your work, then 10 mins of research...should have just researched for 30 mins.

  12. #12

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    Oh yes, the fact that people are pricks instead of being helpful totally justifies that logic. Lets take another look.

    information I needed:
    * 1 spellpower = 1 PP
    * 1 crit rating = 0.61 PP
    * 1 haste = 0.56 PP
    * 1 spirit = 0.21 PP
    * 1 int = 0.19 PP
    * 1 hit = 1.12 PP (when not hit-capped)
    and
    MB > VT > DP > MF

    Posts they were in (Ignoring actually FINDING those posts)
    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    Considering there is a request for help relating to shadow priest dps nearly every week, I figured I put together a bit of a guide for the things you should concentrate on.

    This post is designed to help you maximise your dps output, however keep in mind there is more to being a good dps raid member than your dps numbers. While improving the more technical side to your game play helps there are always other facets to your game play that are just as important (if not more so).

    Rotation or Priority

    There seems to be a belief that the spriest rotation should be VT>DP>SW:P>MB>MF. Some people throw in SW, others tell you it's a dps loss to do so.

    I'm going to ignore SW:P & SW as being in the rotation, firstly SW:P is only ever cast once (all things being equal) and it makes little sense to consider it part of your continual cast rotation. Secondly SW can only be used effectively in very subjective circumstances. It shouldn't be used automatically every CD and for this reason I don't consider it in the rotation.

    So with that in mind the highest dps rotation is MB > VT > DP > MF. While that seems odd on the surface (considering both VT and DP have a higher damage per execute time than MB), delaying MB for 1 GCD has a greater percentage delay effect on the MB cycle (that being 1.5 sec cast + 5.5sec CD = 7 sec ) than it does to VT (15 sec cycle) or DP (24sec cycle). For that reason it's less of a dps loss to delay VT and DP than it is to delay MB. For the so inclined, you can read the math explaining this concept here. If maths hurts your brain, just take my word for it.

    Now that you know the best possible rotation, the next step is to train yourself to cast those spells as close to the best you theoretically can. Keep in mind you will rarely be able to achieve this in a realraid encounter, but training yourself will help you select spells at the right time and minimise delay which should result in higher dps. Target dummies are good training tools but keep in mind that the raw dps figure isn't the number you care about. Instead you want to see how often you are casting your spells in comparison to how often they can be done in theory.

    Mind Blast - 1.5sec cast + 5.5sec CD = Possible to cast every 7 sec (and technically quicker if you factor in haste)
    DoTs - Best possible damage would result with them up 100% of the time
    MF - Cast as many ticks as possible while other spells are on CD, this can be measured in ticks per sec.

    The goal is to cast MB every 7.2 sec (on average), dots to be up 95% of the time (time in combat / 3 = max number of possible dot ticks, actual ticks/max number of possible ticks * 100 = percentage up) and a MF tick every 1.5sec (unbuffed, u can achieve better with haste buffs in a raid, ie. Bloodlust/Heroism).

    If you can manage these figures you are very close to the max theoretical dps. It sounds like it's simple but go test yourself and see how close you really are. Recount and other combat log type addons can usually give you all the necesary information.


    Spec & Glyphs

    This is the accepted 3.1 cookie cutter build is 3.1 cookie cutter build I highly recommend anyone who feels there are a beginner or they are unsure what is the best spec to use this spec.

    However,if you think you're a bit more advanced and mana isn't an issue, then this might interest you The advantage with this spec is you get more threat reduction for easier AoE and imp VE (which is particularly useful in Ulduar and any form of progression raiding).

    There is no real discussion about glyphs, you always take Glyph of Shadow, Shadow Word:Pain and Mind Flay. There is no debate, you take them, end of story.

    If you're a bit hard headed and using some other type of spec and glyphs, give the above a proper trial and you will see it increase your dps.

    Gear

    We're lucky in that www.shadowpriest.com is one of the better class sites going around, and they have a comprehensive gear ranking list that utilises simulationcraft modeling. It's generally accepted as one of the best ways to rank gear, and if you follow the list you can't really go too wrong. Here is the list, it does give some information about Pseudo Power, hit cap, meta gem ranking etc. If you don't understand all those concepts, don't worry, just follow the list.

    When deciding where is the best place to get hit, it's a good idea to create a ratio between the highest possible PP item (with 0 hit) vs the best possible PP item that has hit. You then divide the amount of hit by the loss of PP for wearing that hit item.

    For example, the neck slot shows Pendant of the Shallow Grave as the highest PP item (151.29). The best hit item is Pendant of Fiery Havoc (132.04) with 46 hit rating. So the ratio is 46 / (151.29 - 132.04) = 2.38961. In other words you get 2.39861 hit per loss of PP for wearing that item. You can then rank gear by this ratio and work out where the most efficient hit items are. If all that seems too hard you can simply copy what is presented here.

    When gemming your gear there is only a limited amount of real alternatives.

    Runed Scarlet Ruby
    Potent Monarch Topaz
    Purified Twilight Opal
    Misty Forest Emerald

    Please note that the Misty Forest Emerald is only useful is some very rare particular cases. As you need 2 blue gems to activate your Chaotic Skyfire Diamond, while the Purified Twilight Opal is more PP the Misty can be used to get a socket bonus you would otherwise have to miss out on that makes it better.

    Also not that you can use Rigid Autumn's Glow, Veiled Monarch Topaz or Shining Forest Emerald but its generally a bad idea. On the surface it looks like those gems are great to use because they are higher PP. However they provide hit very inefficiently, i'll use the same neck example above to illustrate.

    Lets say you decided to use the Pendant of the Shallow Grave (151.29 PP) over the Pendant of Fiery Havoc (132.04 PP), meaning you decided to gem 46 hit rating to reach the hit cap. While the non hit stats on the Pendant of Fiery Havoc only provide a PP value of 132.04, all 46 hit on the item was being used, pushing the real PP value to 192.3. Therefore in using the Pendant of the Shallow Grave you have lost 192.3 - 151.29 = 41.01 PP. To get your 46 hit back, u are going to use 3 x 16 hit gems in place of 3 x 19 SP gems. You figure that 16 hit is 1.96PP better per gem, so you'll be ahead. However, those 3 gems only give a net of 1.96 * 3 = 5.88 but remember you lose out on 41.01 PP in using the non hit neck... so in fact you would lose out on 35.13 PP using this setup. Even if those yellow gems gave socket bonuses you'd otherwise lose out on it's rare that they would make up for what you would lose. Of course individual cases change, but you will find this outcome in 99% of situations.

    Lastly, don't be tight and enchant your gear appropriately. The best enchants are listed in the best gear thread on www.shadowpriest.com. If you are really keen to improve your dps ability, then go out and farm what you need to be as prepared as possible.

    Hope this helps, I know it's a bit long but its no where near as comprehensive as it could be... good luck melting face.
    and

    *These are the results from using the latest trunk build of SimCraft (build 1960) which is updated for PTR build 9733 of 3.1.0.
    Do not use for earlier versions.*
    These scaling coefficients are for Shadow Priests with gear somewhere between BiS T7 and BiS T8

    These tests were run with profiles manually increasing or decreasing stats compared to the baseline rather than using calculate_scale_factors until a possible bug is resolved with that.

    The tests were run with 30000 iterations.

    optimal_raid=1 was set in SimCraft (so all the raid buffs, except for any +spellpower that a deep Demo Lock brings above what ToW brings are covered).

    There were 3 "sets" tested.

    The sets were:
    ==========

    1) BiS T8 gear set and increasing stat values in turn (except for +hit rating).
    2) BiS T8 gear set and decreasing stat values in turn (incl. +hit rating).
    3) BiS T7 gear set and increasing stat values in turn (except for hit rating).

    There were of course baseline BiS T8 and BiS T7 profiles executed.

    The results:
    ========
    For set 1 (BiS T8 increasing stat values):
    sp: 1.498
    crit: 1.0696
    haste: 0.9672
    spi: 0.3412
    int: 0.3336
    hit: 2.019

    For set 2 (BiS T8 decreasing stat values):
    sp: 1.5128
    crit: 1.0796
    haste: 0.9788
    spi: 0.2964
    int: 0.2968
    hit: 2.019

    For set 3 (BiS T7 increasing stat values):
    sp: 1.4112
    crit: 0.9768
    haste: 0.9292
    spi: 0.2888
    int: 0.2848
    hit: 1.745


    Averaging out Sets 1 and 2 gives an idea of the scaling factors at the T8 BiS level:
    sp: 1.5054
    crit: 1.0746
    haste: 0.973
    spi: 0.3188
    int: 0.3152
    hit: 2.019

    Averaging Sets 1, 2 and 3 gives an idea of scaling factors across the expected gear range etc:
    sp: 1.474
    crit: 1.042
    haste: 0.9584
    spi: 0.3088
    int: 0.30587
    hit: 1.92767

    The PP values for the Average of Sets 1 and 2:
    sp: 1 PP
    crit: 0.71383 PP
    haste: 0.64634 PP
    spi: 0.21177 PP
    int: 0.20938 PP
    hit: 1.34117 PP

    The PP values for the Average of all 3 Sets:
    sp: 1 PP
    crit: 0.70692 PP
    haste: 0.65020 PP
    spi: 0.20950 PP
    int: 0.20751 PP
    hit: 1.30778 PP

    For the purposes of gearing up towards the BiS T8 set from a BiS T7 baseline, we're probably better off using the Average of all 3 Sets PP results.

    So, I'd propose using:
    sp: 1 PP
    crit: 0.70692 PP
    haste: 0.65020 PP
    spi: 0.20950 PP
    int: 0.20751 PP
    hit: 1.30778 PP

    (numbers subject to change if there are any upcoming Priest changes on PTR).

    The resulsts are to 5 decimal places because we tend to multiply our coefficients with stats that are 3 to 4 digits big and we give results to 2 decimal places.
    However if you want simpler 2 decimal place values for easier number crunching:
    spellpower: 1 PP
    crit rating: 0.71 PP
    haste rating: 0.65 PP
    spirit: 0.21 PP
    intellect: 0.21 PP
    hit: 1.31 PP

    If you average Sets 2 and Sets 3:
    sp: 1.462
    crit: 1.0282
    haste: 0.954
    spi: 0.2926
    int: 0.2908
    hit: 1.882

    Which gives PP values of:
    sp: 1 PP
    crit: 0.70328 PP
    haste: 0.65253 PP
    spi: 0.20014 PP
    int: 0.19891 PP
    hit: 1.28728 PP

    Rounded:
    sp: 1 PP
    crit: 0.70 PP
    haste: 0.65 PP
    spi: 0.20 PP
    int: 0.20 PP
    hit: 1.29 PP

    You'll note that the first one had ALL the information I needed or asked for. Yea, clearly asking for that was a truly obscene thing to do. How DARE I ask for the basics.

    If some kid was learning multiplication you pricks would throw a calculus book at him. If all we want is the basics, we don't need an entire fucking encyclopedia of theorycrafting. I didn't ask for anything ridiculous. Why should I waste 30 minutes for something that would've taken 90% of the people here 30 SECONDS to post? Because you're all pricks? pass.

  13. #13

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    Save the drama for mama.


    Give a man a fish, he is fed for one meal.

    Teach a man to fish, he is fed for life.


    EDIT...if I was really a "prick" I'd ask you how in the hell you got to 80 and don't know the "basics" of stat priority and rotation. Did you buy that charactor?

    You came here not knowing "the basics". My point was, in reading for that 30 mins, you would learn "the basics" plus a whole lot more.

  14. #14

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    right, i see that once again after someone posting a simple question is getting flamed. yea he could have spent a hour or so looking like i did with my priest. i am disc main spec and shadow offspec. pretty much you will need two sets of gear for both, not all slots though just a few pieces to get hit capped and obviously 4 piece of what ever set you are after t7 or t8 depends on your current avalability to get gear.
    but here is a good site for geenral summery of disc gear http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...ihDYDHw&gid=18
    As for shadow gear you have found the simply stat weight, also there is a simple addon you can get for the ppp values based off shadowpriest.com that can help you make a decison a bit easyer in a raid etc http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-a...eudopower.aspx obviously dont always go for the best numbered gear as some general inteligence is needed and own decision making

    Hope that this is helpfull

  15. #15

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    No.

    He asked for help, people direct him to helpful sites that will answer his questions plus any enevitable follow up questions he should have, he gets impatient and starts calling people pricks, then he gets flamed.

  16. #16

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    Emo kids shouldn't play this game. The most useful topic about stats and "rotation" is stickied, yet every week another of these threads come up. It also takes less than 2 minutes to read Worshaka's topic and post about shadow priests. And the worst thing is how primadonna got insulted when he got pointed to proper sites.. incredible.

  17. #17

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Coot
    Save the drama for mama.


    Give a man a fish, he is fed for one meal.

    Teach a man to fish, he is fed for life.


    EDIT...if I was really a "prick" I'd ask you how in the hell you got to 80 and don't know the "basics" of stat priority and rotation. Did you buy that charactor?

    You came here not knowing "the basics". My point was, in reading for that 30 mins, you would learn "the basics" plus a whole lot more.
    If you need to know EXACTLY which stats are better than others by exactly how much to get to 80 it's you that's bad. If you need to be doing the optimal DPS rotation to kill a mob that will die from one shadow word pain and a mind flay, then it's you that's bad. Knowing optimal stats and rotation are not even remotely close to required. Acting like you need optimal rotations and stats for leveling is one of the dumbest things I've seen on MMO champ, and that's pretty damn dumb.

    If I don't want the basics and a whole lot more, or to spend 30 minutes WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO. And the teach a man to fish thing is just so far off it's amazing. Teaching a man to fish would be having me do allllllllll the theory crafting, and guess what? I already know how to do that. I just don't want to spend my time doing theory crafting when it has already been done. Furthermore, you probably didn't do the theory crafting EITHER. Someone else gave you the fish too.

    Here's an analogy for how this went down.
    "Hey what's the biggest animal on earth?"
    "www.wikipedia.com"

    Ask a simple question, get a response that has the answer but requires digging for it.

    Did you see the giant fucking wall of text I posted? The answer I needed vs the HUGE wall of text that actually had it. That's completely ignoring having to look through a bunch of posts on the shadow priest website first to even get to that wall of text.

    TLDR: You're an idiot. If you want to see why your logic is flawed use this website: www.wikipedia.com I guarentee the proper method of critical thinking is in there but I'm not going to just GIVE you a fish.

    Quote Originally Posted by syanid
    Emo kids shouldn't play this game. The most useful topic about stats and "rotation" is stickied, yet every week another of these threads come up. It also takes less than 2 minutes to read Worshaka's topic and post about shadow priests. And the worst thing is how primadonna got insulted when he got pointed to proper sites.. incredible.
    The most useful topic about stats didn't have that stat priority in it. KTHXBAI.


    If you guys don't want to answer questions from people asking for help DON'T CLICK ON A LINK THAT SAYS "NEED HELP." That's not a difficult concept.

    Here's another fun fact. I came in here with a rotation I was doing and a stat priority that made sense to me. I come to try to figure out for sure what is optimal because I want to be a good shadow priest. Well guess what? The rotation I was using is the same as the optimal one. The stat priority I found? Confirmed that I was right about which gear I was picking. Oh and the cookie cutter spec? AMAZING it is point for point EXACTLY what I am specced, which I made on my own. So to all the pricks acting like I don't know what I'm doing, here's a newsflash: I didn't even need the giant walls of text. I would've been it right without ever having come here. YOU are the bads that actually do need someone else to tell you what to do.

    But none of that changes the fact that I came in here asking for some basic information to try to make sure I was doing my best, and you guys were pricks. Posting links to giant walls of text is not helpful. There is no need for every person to have to go read through page after page after page of theorycrafting crap when the answer can be summarized in a few lines. And it can be, just scroll up and look at my previous post.

  18. #18

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    Bla bla bla yawn.

  19. #19

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    Quote Originally Posted by syanid
    Bla bla bla yawn.
    Aww, can't come up with a counterpoint? Somehow I'm not surprised.

  20. #20

    Re: Need shadow/disc priest help

    No, I don't read walls of texts of angry nerds who can be bothered to spend 30 minutes to type this but can't be arsed to check a few links. Go figure.


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