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  1. #81
    Blademaster Spellpl's Avatar
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    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Its so damn simple that Discipline Priest is one of worst possible choices for Val.
    We have raid with 2 healers - Holy Paladin and Discipline Priest. 1st possiblity is Holy Paladin got Val and Priest have some other weapon and 2nd possiblity is that Holy pala got some other weapon and Disci got Val.
    1st possibility - Holy Paladin gonna put on HIGHER than priest Valnyr procs due to better healing and Priest gonna put anyway 30% absorb shield on tank anyway and PWS anyway Valnyr wont improve it at all.
    2nd possbility - Holy Paladin will only heal and Priest gonna do LESS heals and that means he gonna make less absorbing Valnyr shield + he still gonna do their PWS and Absord shield from Devine Aegis so Basicly what u prefer:
    15% of Holy Paladin Heals as Valnyr procs or 15% heals of Discipline Priest as Valnyr Procs.
    So coming to conclusion is basicly
    Holy Paladin have better HEALS or Discipline Priest have better HEALS (not absorbs)]
    Holy Paladin won. (and all other healers aswell)

    I was wondering Beacon of Light aswell gives shield from Valnyr?

  2. #82
    Stood in the Fire Rollo's Avatar
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    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    tbh, i think the thread has been slightly derailed. sure, val'anyr would be better in the hands of someone other than a disc priest, but what if the priest in question in the OP is the only healer in your raid (please for the sake of arguement imagine a raid doable with 1 healer, or assume a 5man group).

    would that priest then be better as holy with this hammer or disc with this hammer. yes i understand the hammer gives a better shield with higher HPS and has no effect on absorbs being put up by a disc priest. i dont have any numbers or recount parse's to play off of, im not a healer, but i was wondering if one who is can run some numbers for this scenario.

    another scenario would be, 25 man group ... 6 healers ... priest already has the hammer and is the only priest (so no arguing about giving it to the holy paladin). would it be better for said priest to be disc or holy? i dont know the difference between a holy priest and a disc priest when hps AND absorbs are put into account, but if disc is that much higher, would the hammer in the hands of a holy priest make up that missing ground and go above and beyond that of a disc priest?
    wyrd bið ful aræd

  3. #83

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphyx
    I'm not sure about that.
    Tell me how a disc priest would put out 130k healing in 15 seconds. Show me with spells, numbers and math.

    Because i just simply don't buy it.

  4. #84

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Holy, because discipline really doesn't heal very much at all they mitigate, which val'anyr does nothing for.

  5. #85

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    btw...assuming we talk about ulduar ( no knoledge on new instance )...
    mace proc on raid healer is valuable at ( talking about perfect situation and according to my knoledge ofc ) :

    - XT during tantrum or during hardmode when add are out ( so situational proc )
    - Kologarn during hsi ae ( situational again )
    - Council hardmdoe ( always )
    - Hodir ( always )
    - Thorim ( situational...ae damage is not predictable...so barely useless here )
    - Mimiron ( valuable in some moment...but only 8 sec duration...situational again but mroe valluable than on other boss )
    - Freya ( rly situational for the ae damage...nearly useless compared to having it on tank )
    - Ignis ( useless )
    - Scale ( useless )
    - Yog ( situational...and anyway damage around is quite low )
    - General ( wasted....in the perfect situation only tank is taking huge damage )
    - Auriaya ( wasted in almost 90% of the case )
    - Algalon ( no knowledge of the fight...so dunno rly )

    In Main Tank healer hand ( considering that tank damage is always going ) the bubble is used in 99,9% of the case, making it more valuable as a proc ( and even trivializing some fight...i'm thinking at multimace raid environment )..

    So easy choice....mace is valuable on tank healer...
    Then yo have to see your guild....

    did you have high attendance froma skilled pala healer? give it to him
    high attendance is from a skilled disco healer ? give it to him

    as i told, in perfect situation the mace ( even statwise ) seem designed for holy pala.

    but please, don't give it to a raid healer if you want to use the proc nearly at his max always

    btw
    i keep considering holy priest ad raid healer...not as a tank healer ( i know they can do it, and do it quite nice...but nothing compared to holy pala or disco priest ).

    Imagine in like 2 expansions hpw much heal a healer can output in 15 seconds, that would maybe make the mace OP even at level 100ish if there wasn't this cap.
    ye, and then immagine it ( withot cap ) at lvl 100 with 4 healer with the mace in raid....
    nearly no damage going on tank lol

    @Phyrion

    limit is not designed to be used everytime you got a proc....you wont have the mana to sustian a fight if you do that..
    limit is there to not trivialize fight on higher level on when more than one is present considerint htat buble stack

  6. #86
    Stood in the Fire Rollo's Avatar
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    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by evoslayer
    Holy, because discipline really doesn't heal very much at all.
    what i am getting at is this. say a holy priest puts out 6k hps. a similar geared disc priest is gonna put out 5k hps (???), but his absorbs when accounted for jump him to say 8k. now, giving the holy this hammer, during those 15 seconds of a proc, the hammer will add 900 absorb per second, bumping the holy to 6.9k. while the disc priest's hammer shield will resultingly be smaller, aren't they still out performing a holy priest?

    ofc these are arbitrary numbers as i dont know what a holy or disc will be doing. someone who does, please post.
    wyrd bið ful aræd

  7. #87

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    They are, so maybe the priest should be discipline, but thats not the argument at all, also there is no way in HELL a disc priest is putting out 5k dps, or even close to that.

  8. #88
    Stood in the Fire Rollo's Avatar
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    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by evoslayer
    They are, so maybe the priest should be discipline, but thats not the argument at all, also there is no way in HELL a disc priest is putting out 5k dps, or even close to that.
    like i said, arbitrary numbers are arbitrary. it would be easier to do this math with real numbers, but i dont have any.
    wyrd bið ful aræd

  9. #89

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Heres the thing, your argument is only internally valid because it states that although disc gets less out of the hammer disc is so much better than holy at raid healing already that no one would ever spec holy even if they got the hammer, which couldnt be farther from the truth, holy out preforms disc at raid healing by a massive margin.

  10. #90
    Stood in the Fire Rollo's Avatar
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    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by evoslayer
    Heres the thing, your argument is only valid because it states that although disc gets less out of the hammer disc is so much better than holy at raid healing already that no one would ever spec holy even if they got the hammer, which couldnt be farther from the truth, holy out preforms disc at raid healing by a massive margin.
    and i completely agree with this comment. i believe my guild rolls with 1 holy and 1 disc priest for most fights in uld 25, with the holy switching to disc or w/e, i hoenstly dont really pay attention to what they do. the only time i ever look at the healing meters is when our ret paladin has a chuckle at his 8k hps off JoL procs, or when for some reason we arent killing a boss and people fall left and right.

    so yeah...my arguement is skewed due to the scenario, but i still think of it being valid. the OPs guild is in a position where they have already given the fragments/hammer to a priest. that priest has stated they will be switching to disc. to me the arguement about giving the hammer to another class is moot for this thread, and the only arguement that should be is the choice for 1 priest between holy and disc. without the hammer, which spec has better hps+absorb? after the hammer, which spec has better hps+absorb? thats my simple question.
    wyrd bið ful aræd

  11. #91

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Phyrion
    Tell me how a disc priest would put out 130k healing in 15 seconds. Show me with spells, numbers and math.

    Because i just simply don't buy it.
    I can't tell you right now because server isn't on and I would have to speculate on T9 Numbers.
    But to speculate for you:
    Assume
    10 jupms from POM (1-2 GCD's)
    3 targets on renew (3 GCD's some of the ticks from cast before procc, some won't count.
    2 POH healing cast
    + anything (if possible else I can put in 15 secs)

    Now where does this put me in T9? I don't know. Let all crits be crits. After all I said: "I'm not sure that it is impossible!" And even if it is, I think the higher procc chance on a disc put him even with a pala.
    It works different with different classes. And if a pala can hit it now, there is no room for improovement in 3.2 or 3.3. But this get to far I think. As I said, for us class was no argument in the discussion on whoever is first in the list.

    And another advantage on a priest is that he can go holy or disc, what ever is needed. A heal pala can go healpala, a head druid can go heal druid, a head shammy can go heal shammy. Now what?

    I guess we can speculate all day. But until I have it and can switch speccs to see how the difference is, it remains specculation. I guess I have to wait until I find some logs of a lucky wielder.

  12. #92

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    I find it interesting how the server first mace on my realm went to a disc priest, and the #1 in our guild to get it is a priest

    You can theorycraft how the mace is worse for priests but i look at the flip side and think of the benefits discs get from it

    The main benefit in the form of penance, penance is a very powerful heal in the first place...the only heal that heals as soon as you cast it. So that heal + the mace proc will make it furthermore powerful.

    Atm the most intense healing encounter is probably alagon, where yes another healer might benefit more from being able to pump out more hps to proc shields, but on any other encounter penance becomes a life saver used at critical moments, and i think the additional proc further helps this

    I'm not saying disc priests are the best choice for the mace, but I do think they have a valid shout for having it

  13. #93

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphyx
    I can't tell you right now because server isn't on and I would have to speculate on T9 Numbers.
    But to speculate for you:
    Assume
    10 jupms from POM (1-2 GCD's)
    3 targets on renew (3 GCD's some of the ticks from cast before procc, some won't count.
    2 POH healing cast
    + anything (if possible else I can put in 15 secs)

    Now where does this put me in T9? I don't know. Let all crits be crits. After all I said: "I'm not sure that it is impossible!" And even if it is, I think the higher procc chance on a disc put him even with a pala.
    It works different with different classes. And if a pala can hit it now, there is no room for improovement in 3.2 or 3.3. But this get to far I think. As I said, for us class was no argument in the discussion on whoever is first in the list.

    And another advantage on a priest is that he can go holy or disc, what ever is needed. A heal pala can go healpala, a head druid can go heal druid, a head shammy can go heal shammy. Now what?

    I guess we can speculate all day. But until I have it and can switch speccs to see how the difference is, it remains specculation. I guess I have to wait until I find some logs of a lucky wielder.
    PoH and PoM and Renew on multiple targets don't count, because they don't add to one shield which was the point. We were talking about single target healing.

    In the end though, I think we can all agree that the mace should go to the healer that puts most effort in raids and is the most active. The thing is obviously good for every healing class/spec.

  14. #94

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    The thing that those who are defending Disc are missing that they are getting the aegis shields and Pw:s anyways, with or without the the mace. The ADDITIONAL benefit they gain is smaller than a holy priest or a pally.

    Lets imagine a holy priest and disc priest healing the same target (numbers are very off, but it doesnt matter in this case):
    case 1:
    disc priest has the mace, holy doesnt
    Disc uses PW:S (5k) and crits with Pennance and Flash heal for total 20k
    15% of the 20k will be added from the mace (3k) and 30% from DA as they all were crits (6k)
    total 20k healed and 14k absorbed
    Holy heals with GH's or something for 25k, which is the same as the disc priests heal + shield.

    Total on tank: 20k + 25k healed, 14k absorbed

    case 2:
    disc doesnt have mace, holy does, same heales going out from both
    Disc uses PW:S (5k) and crits with Pennance and Flash heal for total 20k,  he gets 30% from DA as they all were crits (6k)
    total 20k heal + 11k shield
    Holy heals with GH's or something for 25k, 15% of it will be 3,75k shield from the mace

    Total on tank: 20k + 25k healed, 14,75k absorbed

    Difference 0.75k

    I pulled the numbers out of my sleeve, but they dont matter at all just as long as the DIRECT HEALING from the holy priest (or pally or whatever) is higher than on the disc priest. Just put any kind of numbers fullfilling that requirement and the math will be the same in the end. And in any case, the direct healing from a disc priest is lower than from basically any other healer, thus it is worse on disc.

    And no-one in this thread has said Disc is a bad healing spec. It is a great spec and needed in many situations, but the mace proc benefits them the least. Its pointless to argue with it.


  15. #95

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Phyrion
    PoH and PoM and Renew on multiple targets don't count, because they don't add to one shield which was the point. We were talking about single target healing.
    I supposed you would reply with "XYZ does not count, because..."

    But I guess you have the type of the buff wrong. The buff is on the caster, not the target healed! And all heals cast in ne next 15 secs will create an 8 sec shield on the target healed. So it DOES count.

    The mace will buff the style of the caster. -> Many shields, one big shield. What ever you need..

    I wonder, how does a holy priest perform on single target heal against a pala of equal equip?

  16. #96

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    His specc together with mace could prevent incoming burst dmg wich could help other healers with keeping it up. (this is how i see it as dps POV)

  17. #97
    Stood in the Fire Rollo's Avatar
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    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    i guess it can also be argued this way in a dps point of view.

    player X does 6k dmg in spec #1, 90% is physical, 10% is spell
    player Y does 7k dmg in spec #2, 70% is physical, 30% is spell
    player Z can give a 20% physical dmg boost to one player, who will benefit the most.

    player X would end up gaining 1.08k dmg putting him to 7.08k for the fight. player Y would end up gaining 0.98k dmg putting him at 7.98k for the fight. obviously player X should get the buff.

    now this scenario ...
    player X does 6k dmg in spec #1, 90% is physical, 10% is spell
    player X does 7k dmg in spec #2, 70% is physical, 30% is spell
    player Z will give him the buff regardless of his spec.

    which spec should he go into for the fight. even though the buff will give him a bigger % boost in spec #1, he should still go into spec #2 because it is overall higher.

    obviously, when the choice is there to give it to one or another player, the obvious answer is the one who will get more benefit from it the most. when the choice has already been made to give it to one player, now the choice is between which spec is better and not which spec will receive a better boost.
    wyrd bið ful aræd

  18. #98

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Good lord, this topic popped up overnight like a weed.

    First thing is to address the OP: The reason that your GL wants to go disc over holy is that the RNG factor involved in the Val'anyr proc makes it MOST(not only) suited to MT healing. A MT healer will always be casting on the MT, thus the proc will never go to waste. Disco is the best spec for MT healing. Now, a holy priest could use the mace, and use it very effectively, however, if the raid isn't taking a large amount of damage and the proc occurs, I'm not going to waste boatloads of mana to put up 15% of my overhealing as shields on the raid.

    Now the for the tangent topic that has cropped up of "What class should get the mace OFC?"

    The following is a priority check list:

    (Criteria 1) The healer who deserves it the most. The one who has stuck with the guild and will stay in the guild for the foreseeable future. The one who shows up to the raids on time, all the time. The one who puts in maximum effort.

    (Criteria 2) Now, if you have multiple healers that fit this bill (lucky you), then next on the list should be the best MT healer.

    (Criteria 3) If you have multiple *best MT healers* (again lucky you), then it should be the one who can squeeze the most raw HPS within 15sec.


    I guarantee you that most guilds will never make it to 3. If you do make it to 3, and you have a Disco priest and a paladin; smart money defers to the paladin. Does that make Disco crappy? No. Disco is the hotness. It just means, in a minmax world, paladins have a slight edge on raw HPS.

  19. #99

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-
    ]
    Good lord, this topic popped up overnight like a weed.

    First thing is to address the OP: The reason that your GL wants to go disc over holy is that the RNG factor involved in the Val'anyr proc makes it MOST(not only) suited to MT healing. A MT healer will always be casting on the MT, thus the proc will never go to waste. Disco is the best spec for MT healing. Now, a holy priest could use the mace, and use it very effectively, however, if the raid isn't taking a large amount of damage and the proc occurs, I'm not going to waste boatloads of mana to put up 15% of my overhealing as shields on the raid.

    Now the for the tangent topic that has cropped up of "What class should get the mace OFC?"

    The following is a priority check list:

    (Criteria 1) The healer who deserves it the most. The one who has stuck with the guild and will stay in the guild for the foreseeable future. The one who shows up to the raids on time, all the time. The one who puts in maximum effort.

    (Criteria 2) Now, if you have multiple healers that fit this bill (lucky you), then next on the list should be the best MT healer.

    (Criteria 3) If you have multiple *best MT healers* (again lucky you), then it should be the one who can squeeze the most raw HPS within 15sec.


    I guarantee you that most guilds will never make it to 3. If you do make it to 3, and you have a Disco priest and a paladin; smart money defers to the paladin. Does that make Disco crappy? No. Disco is the hotness. It just means, in a minmax world, paladins have a slight edge on raw HPS.
    THANK YOU SPIRITUS!..

    /thread

  20. #100

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Can't agree more.

    But if you make it to Criteria 3, you will probalby do enough hardmodes to have multiple Val'anyrs...

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