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  1. #101

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    I'm a discipline priest and passed on the fragments, we let our best holy priest and druid roll for it. Same as been said before, it works on hps and thus works much better on burst aoe healers. I'd like to have the mace no doubt but it works better for raid healers in my opninion, the shields will get used up very likely with all the heavy aoe damage in Ulduar.

  2. #102

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Xar
    I'm a discipline priest and passed on the fragments, we let our best holy priest and druid roll for it. Same as been said before, it works on hps and thus works much better on burst aoe healers. I'd like to have the mace no doubt but it works better for raid healers in my opninion, the shields will get used up very likely with all the heavy aoe damage in Ulduar.
    The thing is... lets say you have a boss that has a crazy AoE effect every 30seconds.

    (0sec) CRAZY AOE DAMAGE!!!!
    (6sec) Everyone back at full health
    (9sec) Crap! Someone stepped in the fire! *Cast FH/Renew*
    (10.5sec) Val'aynr Proc Occurs
    (11sec) Son of a....
    (12-25sec) Light raid damage
    (25.5sec) Val'aynr Proc Fades
    (26-29sec) Still light raid damage
    (30sec) CRAZY AOE DAMAGE!!!!
    (31sec) Could've used that damn proc now....

    Boo to RNG.

    MT healer:

    (0) Heal, heal, heal....
    (10) Heal, heal, heal...
    (15) Heal, Val'aynr Proc Occurs!
    (16) Pop haste/SP CDs
    (17) Super awesome healing badassery +15% shield for 15sec!
    (30) Giant shield on the tank for 8more seconds. /happydance


    The RNG aspect of the proc would make me a sad raid healing panda when it procs when I don't need it. With it being on a 45sec CD, and the shields only lasting for 8sec, the proc will be wasted more often in the hands on a raid healer. RNG procs plus RNG damage = bad odds.

    But, if your holy priest and druid were the only ones who met the afore mentioned Criteria 1, then grats to them!

  3. #103
    Herald of the Titans -Ethos-'s Avatar
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    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-
    ]
    The thing is... lets say you have a boss that has a crazy AoE effect every 30seconds.

    (0sec) CRAZY AOE DAMAGE!!!!
    (6sec) Everyone back at full health
    (9sec) Crap! Someone stepped in the fire! *Cast FH/Renew*
    (10.5sec) Val'aynr Proc Occurs
    (11sec) Son of a....
    (12-25sec) Light raid damage
    (25.5sec) Val'aynr Proc Fades
    (26-29sec) Still light raid damage
    (30sec) CRAZY AOE DAMAGE!!!!
    (31sec) Could've used that damn proc now....

    Boo to RNG.

    MT healer:

    (0) Heal, heal, heal....
    (10) Heal, heal, heal...
    (15) Heal, Val'aynr Proc Occurs!
    (16) Pop haste/SP CDs
    (17) Super awesome healing badassery +15% shield for 15sec!
    (30) Giant shield on the tank for 8more seconds. /happydance


    The RNG aspect of the proc would make me a sad raid healing panda when it procs when I don't need it. With it being on a 45sec CD, and the shields only lasting for 8sec, the proc will be wasted more often in the hands on a raid healer. RNG procs plus RNG damage = bad odds.
    That being said, the flipside happens MT healing a fight like Hodir. The proc could occur before the frozen blows become active and effectively waste the proc. Rng will happen no matter which type of healer will get the mace.

    That being said, there are fights where disc is subpar to holy and some where holy is subpar to disc, any priest getting the mace should know how to play both specs and know in which scenario which spec should be used to maximise the proc.

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  4. #104

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    I don't even play a priest (or any healer for that matter), and I can still plainly see that any healing spec will benefit more from the proc than a disc priest.

    The thing that the very few people saying "DISC IS GOOD FOR THE PROC" are missing is the fact that the disc priest will still be able to do all of his shields/bubbles/absorbs WITHOUT the mace. If you have a paladin (or holy priest, more pertinent to this thread) on the MT, along with a disc priest, you get all of the goodness of the disc's absorption, along with all of the goodness of the holy priest/pally's insane healing, thus insane shield.

    I think what these people are saying is that the mace will make the disc priest a much better healer than they are without the mace, which is obviously true, but it doesn't benefit them as much as others.

    Some quick arbitrary numbers/math, which others have shown, but I'll show again. Say the pally and disc priest are on the tank. Assume the pally does 200k healing and the disc does 130k healing + 70k shields. That's 400k healing/absorb on the tank.

    Now, let's show if the priest had the mace: 130k * 15% = 19.5k more absorb, thus 419.5k healing/absorb

    Now, let's show if the pally (substitute holy priest here if you wish): 200k *15% = 30,000, thus 430k healing/asborb.

    Summary:
    No mace = 400k healing/absorb
    Disc mace = 419k healing/absorb
    Pally mace = 430k healing/absorb

    There's really no way to argue this (unless you feel the need to argue with my healing numbers, which I blatantly said are arbitrary). A pally or holy priest w/ the mace will benefit the raid more than a disc priest w/ the mace.

  5. #105

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphyx
    I supposed you would reply with "XYZ does not count, because..."

    But I guess you have the type of the buff wrong. The buff is on the caster, not the target healed! And all heals cast in ne next 15 secs will create an 8 sec shield on the target healed. So it DOES count.

    The mace will buff the style of the caster. -> Many shields, one big shield. What ever you need..

    I wonder, how does a holy priest perform on single target heal against a pala of equal equip?
    You still don't get it. We were talking about building up one shield on one target. For that you need to do 130k healing in 15 sec on one target.

    If you're aoe healing or whatever, maybe you'll make 10 2k shields on 10 targets instead of 1 20k shield on 1 target. I'm not saying this is bad. On the other hand, disc priests are not raid/aoe healers, so what's the point?

    Also, I'm done with this thread, it's going nowhere.

  6. #106

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Things that are true:

    Hammershield + Diszishield > Diszishield
    Hammershield + Diszishield > Hammershield

    Which...shows is that "Diszishield" looks strange as a word and adds nothing to the diskussion.

    I began with "who gets the most out of that legendary hammer?"

    And the answer is: The one healing the most

    Healing =! shields/Absorb
    So since diszipline = a lot of absorb it also means
    diszipline = less healing than others, right?
    We've looked into the eye of c'thun...
    We've faced the thousand maws of yogg-saron...

    Soon will be encounter the mindconsuming nose of...wait what?

  7. #107

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by syanid
    There are healing niches, if you minimize the damage on the MT, you get to bring another dpser or use another raid healer. That's what Discipline will do. Casting bubbles for 15 seconds on entire raid when there's no damage is plainly dumb and does nothing. A paladin doesn't mitigate near enough damage as disc priest, I won't bother to prove it since there's way too many wws parses out there that prove it.
    Many people have said this already, but I'll do it too. This is not about healing niche, it's about which class benefits more from shield. Even without Val'anyr disc will have Divine aegis on MT, but paladin can stack more powerful shield in few secs than disc does.

    Someone also already said if boss hits the tank before you stack shield to 20k it's gone. That would make great synergy between disc and pally with hammer. Disc could shield tank with his abilities and prevent hammer proc from going off, so pally can stack it up fast.

    One way or another, I would still give the hammer to priest, cause priests are good healers for every task. With dual specc available he can always jump between 2 speccs and get best use of it, in current encounter.

    Oh by the way, I guess that it totally rocks having a Holy Priest with Val'Anyr healing Vezax hard mode. Oh wait...
    Absolutely on topic!
    I'm raiding as holy priest for 4years, and that is only fight where discipline is way better than holy, and maybe Kaz'rogal in Mount Hyjal.
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  8. #108

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Prove me if I am wrong but ain this mace best for Maintank or basicly tank healer?

    And Disci is definitivly Main tank healer with some shields on raid besides.

    Holy priest atm is mostly AOE healer, so ain extra absorb is better on healer who focus on 1 target so he can stack it?

    Coz what's the deal with hpriest who crit with PoH and creates 5 little shields.

    Once again. Imagine boss hitting for 90% tank hp - then comes disci priest with PW:S, divine aegis proc + mace pros = tank gets more EHP due to this.

    I dont know since I'm not a healer but imho this mace is in 1 place for disci priest/hpal a.k main tank healer and then goes to raid healers. Just my personal view

  9. #109

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by koledownik90
    Prove me if I am wrong but ain this mace best for Maintank or basicly tank healer?
    In most situations, yes. But you're assuming there is only ever 1 MT healer, which is wrong. Yes, disc priests are fantastic MT healers, but so are pallys and others.

  10. #110

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Yeah, Im talking generaly bout MT healers.

    Holy priest novadays is most likley raid healer.

    And just imagine for example holy priest casting FH on some random raid target with -4k hp = he cast in and BAH it proc. Basicly he just wasted his proc on some random target which wont take more dmg so shield will basicly fade.

    Thats why im in opinion that its best for MT healers, coz you ar 100% sure that shield wont be wasted since tanks will always get some spanks from bosses - that's their role

  11. #111

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Well honestly, if you give the mace to someone who would spend 15 seconds of the proc spamming small heals on raid members who didn't need shields, then you gave it to the wrong person.

    Of course this isn't true if it's an aoe heavy encounter.

  12. #112

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Ah damn, my bad - didnt know that it gives a buff to healer not healed target - So now I got to change my opinion.

    Still best for MT healers but on heavy raid dmg fights it will be equal.

  13. #113

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Phyrion
    You still don't get it. We were talking about building up one shield on one target. For that you need to do 130k healing in 15 sec on one target.

    If you're aoe healing or whatever, maybe you'll make 10 2k shields on 10 targets instead of 1 20k shield on 1 target. I'm not saying this is bad. On the other hand, disc priests are not raid/aoe healers, so what's the point?

    Also, I'm done with this thread, it's going nowhere.
    Last post 4 me 2! As I reread your answer to my first post, I can't find us talking about shielding one target. If you now put the boundaries to "Who can build the biggest shield on MT, you win. But remember next time to mention that, and not putting me into "Tell me how a disc can heal 130k" and then go "Naaah, that doesn't count, because I'm now talking about something totally diffenrent!"

  14. #114

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    The fact is, Val'anyr is a token legendary. The proc is powerful (in the right hands), but if you are playing correctly, it is not going to make or break any boss fights, HM or reg. Giving this mace to a player is a vote of confidence; you are telling the recipient "You're a great healer, and we want you to stick around."

    Our first Val'anyr, which we'll have this reset, is going to a priest that specs discipline for some fights (Vezax HM, Thorim HM) and holy for others (Freya +3, Steelbreaker, etc.).

    The mace proc will likely proc less often and not get as much accomplished in the hands of a disc. priest as it will any other healing spec, I'm not going to go into the details of this as it's been explained multiple times throughout the thread. In my opinion, if you have a healing priest, that priest had better be willing to go either healing spec when the need arises. None of this "I'm disc ONLY" crap. Versatility in healing is one of the strengths of the priest class, and that your first Val'anyr recipient wants to go 'permadisc' upon getting the mace is silly; it's as if they are simply not realizing what class they are.

    Our second mace (if we decide to complete it, though I don't see why we wouldn't) is going to a tank-healing shaman. We don't have an active healadin for the time being; if we did, it may have gone to him instead.

    But once again I'd like to reiterate that the decision of who to give this mace to should not be something to spend sleepless nights agonizing over. While you obviously want to put your loot in the hands of those who can use it most effectively, giving it to a priest who is often discipline over another healer is not going to mean the difference between progressing and not progressing, one keeper and zero keeper, or two and three elders.

  15. #115

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Myzrael
    Many people have said this already, but I'll do it too. This is not about healing niche, it's about which class benefits more from shield. Even without Val'anyr disc will have Divine aegis on MT, but paladin can stack more powerful shield in few secs than disc does.

    Someone also already said if boss hits the tank before you stack shield to 20k it's gone. That would make great synergy between disc and pally with hammer. Disc could shield tank with his abilities and prevent hammer proc from going off, so pally can stack it up fast.

    One way or another, I would still give the hammer to priest, cause priests are good healers for every task. With dual specc available he can always jump between 2 speccs and get best use of it, in current encounter.
    Absolutely on topic!
    I'm raiding as holy priest for 4years, and that is only fight where discipline is way better than holy, and maybe Kaz'rogal in Mount Hyjal.
    If you have a MT healer with Val'Anyr you don't NEED another one. Also, proc is once every 45 seconds, who says a disc can't drop a more powerful shield than paladin? Heard of Divine Hymn? We're talking about such min-maxing that it's getting ridiculous. Those are all things that happen randomly, especially the proc and saying "oh it'll be better if you have disc and pally + val'anyr healing the mt" just sucks.

    What IF holy priest gets it but at the moment he gets the proc, there's huge raid damage? How will that priest utilize the proc of making bubbles when he has to heal up the raid?
    Scenario: Freya does Ground Tremor. Priest throws 3 PoHs and 1 CoH and nearly depletes the time with the proc left. Raid is healed up, there's no more raid damage. Wow, the proc got used so profesionally.

    Scenario 2: paladin has val'anyr, disc doesn't, Freya does Ground Tremor - tank receives almost no damage but raid does.
    Since it's an ability on a timer, disc can PoM > Penance > PW:S the tank if there's the proc up > PoH the raid. And WOW, at least 2 people will get the aegis and 5 others will get the small bubble. And once again, disc prevented the raid damage before it occurred.

    Since you apparently went trough ulduar and did your job as healer, you know that there are sometimes events when tank doesn't get hit but raid healers need help. Naturally, paladins as they are now can't do shit with raid healing. Disc at least has haste buffs and PoH. And it might not heal as much as Holy priests' PoH but it can sure proc aegis and help with raid healing.

    But let's return to the bit where OP said that his gm (a pries) wants to go disc when he completes the hammer > is it a valid decision? Yes it is, it's a great decision because val'anyr does stack with aegis incredibly well.

    Is it better to give val'anyr to a paladin than to a disc priest for mt healing? Yes, it is if you have both disco and pally on the tank duty 24/7, it'll provide slight higher absorption.

    Overall, which healer can prevent the most damage via val'anyr's absorption effect? Disc priest can, due to ability to cast bubbles by using PoH / PoM etc.

    Now, I'll let you to continue min-maxing, but it makes no sense to drag it to this length seeing majority of us won't see the mace or do some hard modes where it'll excel. I wish you all luck and fun in the game, but sometimes you gotta step on the brake and look at things outside of the box. You will never, ever be able to min-max things in the game as you can on forums so discussion about val'anyr being the most effective in hands of a paladin or druid or whatever is silly. It really does help every healer and it should always be served as a reward of a guild to a player who was always there and who was loyal.

  16. #116

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Have been reading most of this thread but not every single post. Especially not the ones that fail on basic math knowledge.

    First I want to say that I do play a priest myself. Mostly holy but disc and shadow occasionally. All speccs are viable and "better than the others" in certain situations.

    It is very clear that the valanyr hammer will cause maximum mitigated damage in the hand of a high HPS healer.
    This means druid or holy priest in most cases, however its arguable that the bubble will have most benefit on a tank, even if a raidhealer might have more total absorb from the proc.
    With this in mind I would vote for a holy paladin hands down, taken that there are equally active, skilled and devoted healers in the raid.

    To you that still vouch for a discpriest to get this mace, I can agree that the synergy effect from a total of more shields, preventing those huge blows is nice, but overall the discpriest is not the best candidate for this mace, looking purely at how much the proc will actually DO.

    If you by any means have a completely different view than this, I am sure you have missed something.
    This is simple and sound common sense.

    Once again, I am a priest(mostly holy) and I would pass this for a holy pala.

  17. #117
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    I a discipline priest healing the mt gets the proc, what heals would he throw on the MT during that time?
    Penance x2
    Flash Heal x10
    Dunno much about what a priest heals with those, mine is only poorly geared but gets about 14k from penance and 5k from flash heals (average, including crits).
    So let's say it's about 80.000 healing done -> 12.000 shield
    The Paladin would spam Holy Light that's about 10 Holy Lights during the time with an average of 14k per holy light -> 140.000 healing done -> 21.000 shield

    Sporting ~0.8 procs per minute, this would equal about 60k shield difference in an 8 minute fight. (or 5 paladin heals)

    If you are into min/maxing, this should definitaley go to the healer that has the most forced HpS throughput on targets that will definately take damage.

    And correct me if I'm mistaken, but these should be paladins and druids for MT-healing.

    Nevertheless, it's a great weapon for everyone and there will surely be some other great weapons in the next tier of gear.

    TLR -> The mace is awesome for whoever has it, but in a raid environment, it would be a shame to go disc if you complete the hammer.

  18. #118

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ethos-
    That being said, the flipside happens MT healing a fight like Hodir. The proc could occur before the frozen blows become active and effectively waste the proc. Rng will happen no matter which type of healer will get the mace.

    That being said, there are fights where disc is subpar to holy and some where holy is subpar to disc, any priest getting the mace should know how to play both specs and know in which scenario which spec should be used to maximise the proc.
    I would tend to disagree. Regardless of a Frozen Blows, Runic Punch, or Surge of Darkness effect, the tank will be getting hit during the 15sec proc duration, and will still be getting hit 8sec after, and will nearly always get hit for more than your Val'aynr shield is worth during those 23sec.

    On the flip side, its is much, much more likely for a raid member to not take damage for an 8sec period.

  19. #119
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphyx
    I'm not sure about that.
    I just wanted to clarify how the procc works. After all, it will procc faster on a disc than on a paladin!
    Has anyone confirmed whether or not JoL will proc this effect?? It counts as both effective and overhealing for the judging paladin. With 3.2 changes, there is no reason to not have a holy paladin judge light. If JoL proc'd the effect, there would be no faster class to proc the effect. No one.

    Just curious to see if this has been tested by anyone yet.

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  20. #120

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    A holy paladin with this essentially becomes a disc priest for the duration of the buff. In addition to all of the awesomeness that is holy pally.

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