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  1. #121

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    I'm sorry, I stopped reading when you said "healing meters."

    Let me clarify. Holy pallys crank out more hps than anyone. And we do it for longer than anyone too (spare me your 3.2 insults). Val'anyr cares not about overhealing.

    If you and your holy pallys are reading the healing meters, I really feel sorry for you all. If you're reading the overhealing meters and are sad that your holy pallys are topping it then you should re-familiarize yourself with the proc from Val'anyr. And if your pallys aren't topping the overhealing meters then cut them loose because they're not doing their job.

  2. #122

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Bye-bye thread. There are just too many knuckleheads posting on you for there to be any reasonable discussion.

  3. #123
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    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by RestoRiven
    Holy pallys suck really. They are constantly at the bottom of the overall healing meters and they double or triple the overhealing of priests and druids. I could be a holy pally no problem just let me start spamming healing touch and nourish. We have two holy pallies that feel like real dead weight. We bring in priests and druids in heroic gear and some pug naxx 25 gear and the pallies get owned hard.
    Your holy pallys must be awful... because I've seen the exact opposite: holy pallys on the top of the healing meters consistently (with, yes, tons of overhealing). I wouldn't want a raid healed solely by healadins, but having one for the MT is something my guild almost considers necessary.

    As to the rest of this discssion... mostly I just hear "blah blah blah [insert class here] healers are best for the mace," with people ignoring the main point: disc priest vs. holy priest using it. Personally, I think it comes down to the raid composition: you can make an argument for either.

  4. #124

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    What happens in you guild with all of your healers doing sub optimal healing, many of whom probably have a poor understanding of their their class is completely irrelevant,if your paladins are topping meters it just means you haveterrible hoyl priests and resto druids. The fact that paladins should not be topping meters is also completely irrelevant.

    The fact is that a paladin overheals alot because their single target heals are so damn good, and when the tank is taking spikes of 30k damage massive heals are exactly what you want, holy paladins haev a very strong niche in raids just like a disc priest, they are low on the meters because of limited aoe healing and often being asked to spend every single, or most GCDs on a tank who may or may not be taking damage at the time.

    The fact is that if you raid without a holy paladin you are SERIOUSLY gimping your ability to keep the main tank alive. especially since a paladin can carry on healing at full potential for the duration of an entire fight when any other healing class would go OOM.

    Of course there is an argument that always being able to spam your most powerful heal is a little bit too easy and maybe that is true, thats why blizzard is changing them, but when they do they will be able to constantly apply a massive val'anyr bubble to two tanks simultaniously, making the mace even better for them.

  5. #125

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    A disc priest with Val'Anyr is bad, but a disc priest healing a tank with a paladin using Val'Anyr is great.

    Also, to the guy on the first page talking about "thinking outside the box", thinking outside the box isn't a substitute for real arguments, don't use it any more please
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  6. #126

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial
    A disc priest with Val'Anyr is bad, but a disc priest healing a tank with a paladin using Val'Anyr is great.

    Also, to the guy on the first page talking about "thinking outside the box", thinking outside the box isn't a substitute for real arguments, don't use it any more please
    People thought yogg+0 was impossible until a "guild thought outside the box" and came up with a strat that gave them the world first. Do people argue that they shouldn't get the world first for thinking outside the box?

    The guy on the front page is saying think of the total amount of and healing and absorbed damage(Val'anyr+DA) a disc priest will get and compare THAT to the amount of healing and absorbed damage(From Val'anyr) that a non-disc healer will get. Now we just need someone who is good at theorycrafting to come up with the numbers for that.

  7. #127

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    The problem with this discussion is its known that its better for a strait healing class, therefor it should go to everyone but the disc priest. But once youve given it to the priest you either want them holy to heal the raid when the aoe comes along and a missed proc before or after the aoe is rng at its best, or you want the priest disc for MT healing where the shield always gets used but where the mace gets the least effective healing so the proc is worth less than a class that is heal spamming.

    The worst thing you can do is change up your healing style which is obviously working because you got an item that shields people based on healing done, so let your GM make the choice, does he want more shields but at potentially bad times, or does he want more tank absorbtion but at the price of reducing the effectiveness of his new weapon.

  8. #128

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Best person to give it to: A Holy Paladin MT healer.
    Second best: Discipline Priest
    Then your Holy Priests/Restoration Druids/Shaman that raid heal.

    A Holy Paladin dishes out nothing but solid HPS on a tank. This much we know for certain. Hell, they just got extreme buffs to HPS but nerfed through mana. Oh well. A Discipline Priest, on the other hand, does exactly the same. "Health" per second. However, the Discipline priest's shields are smaller than the Holy Priests or the Resto druid's or whoever... sure. But the Discipline Priest is constantly putting them where they belong: on the tank. I don't know about you, but alot of AoE I see coming my way, the shield either a) wouldn't make a difference and I'd need to Prayer that group again anyways, or b) the shield falls off before that group gets hit again.

    Sure it has its uses, but realistically, so does gemming spellpower. The Discipline Priest uses the tool to absorb even more damage that's always going to be 100% effective. On the tank. It complements his tools very nicely, it just so happens the Holy Paladin does it better (when tank healing).
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  9. #129

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Even though disc has the lowest healing, using gheal, penance w/e, wouldn't still be helpful for them to have the mace since that's an extra shield to mitigate dmg? I can see if the bubbles didn't stack but since they do doesn't that make it more useful to them as mitigated healers? I'm not trying to be a smart ass or nothing I'm really asking lol

  10. #130

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by darkdestiny
    Even though disc has the lowest healing, using gheal, penance w/e, wouldn't still be helpful for them to have the mace since that's an extra shield to mitigate dmg? I can see if the bubbles didn't stack but since they do doesn't that make it more useful to them as mitigated healers? I'm not trying to be a smart ass or nothing I'm really asking lol
    Generally that's my take on it. But everyone else says "lol lowest on healing charts shouldn't get legendary". So who am I to disagree with the masses. :
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  11. #131

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    I don't know, being able to prevent dmg sounds impressive to me, less work to actually have to keep up the health bars, and since the mace does the same thing, I just figured that's an extra tool to their tool box of dmg prevention.

  12. #132

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Why add the ability to apply shitty bubbles to a discs toolbox when you can add the ability to apply good bubbles to a paladins toolbox?

    The delusion that alot you seem to suffer is that because disc priests can alredy mitigate damage any future mitigation from them is somehow better, this is not true, their mitigation from val'anyr is worse

  13. #133

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote Originally Posted by Asgard
    You'll put ABSORBS on your target which WON'T trigger Val'anyr's proc ! The fact that discpriest's PW:S is improved won't improve AT ALL Val'Anyr's proc.

    Yes, it's the BiS healing mace for disc priest, the proc is still awesome, but a priest with it should spec Holy except if he's a retard, and it shouldn't be given to a discpriest. THIS IS IT. Don't try to think when you can't even read a tooltip.
    You guys know Disc priests spam heals often too right? There's not many instances where we can JUST throw out a bunch of shields. Usually It's Shield(BT)+PoH,+Penance+Flash+Flash+PoM+Flash, another shield somewhere, repeat. The healing isn't that much lower to say that it's "retarded" to give it to them, especially considering who we heal usually.

    I can't believe people actually think like this. As much as people want to say "I know I know you don't have to tell me how disc priests work blah blah blah I know shields blah blah" they don't know jack shit, like this guy.

    First of all, Holy's high amount of healing comes from AE healing. There are very few Holy GHeal tank healers these days do to the fact that the job is done more efficiently by many other specs. So Holy still is throwing around medium heals like Disc but just to more people at once. Disc priests cast PoH and PoM which hit multiple people also.

    Second, a well geared priest can have a Penance hit for pretty close to a GHeal crit, and squeeze a Flash Heal in after in the same amount of time to cast a regular GHeal. So single target wise, the difference between Holy and Disc isn't as big as you think, at least not big enough to call Disc priests with the mace "retards".

    Third, someone said it before, the shields would probably be better off on a tank anyway, where the big chunks of damage are, so the mitigation can slow it down so healers can do their job. Disc is extremely efficient at this. This isn't as important as #1 though.

    Am I saying Holy shouldn't get the mace? No of course not.

    What I am saying though is your reasoning for why Disc shouldn't is just....ignorant.

    There's no reason why any spec should not have this.

    Quote Originally Posted by evoslayer
    ....this is not true, their mitigation from val'anyr is worse
    Not by much really, if I don't cast bubbles (except to get BT for Penance and FHeal) and just roll Renew+PoM+Penance+Flash Heal spam, I stay right up a good Holy pallies ass. The difference is being blown out of proportion. I'm not disagreeing that it might be better on a Holy pally (it really depends on the player also) but my gripe is saying that Disc should not have it AT ALL EVER. That's just ignorant and means you don't know the spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jathro
    I'm sorry, I stopped reading when you said "healing meters."
    This thread has degenerated (actually it might have started out that way) into a healing meter epeen flame war. I agree with this sentence very much. Every healing spec has a job, and not one of their jobs is topping the healing meters, all of their jobs are keeping people alive, meters don't mean shit for the most part, learn that.

    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-
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    Bye-bye thread.  There are just too many knuckleheads posting on you for there to be any reasonable discussion.
    I said my piece here, and it's long and probably won't be read by many, but it's what I think the truth is, that some people are ignorant to certain specs and out right saying one spec does not ever deserve this mace is just stupid. Time to leave and never look back!


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  14. #134
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    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    In the long run, the differenc between giving it to x class over y class with be minimal, and really having a mace in the raid isnt that noticeable in terms on incoming damage reduction. The only real thing you notice is the bright lightningy blue bubbles popping up everywhere.

    And honestly the argument between priests specs is just as useless. Any priest who gets this mace should be able to play both specs, since it's essentially a requirement to know how to play both where they are needed in ulduar. Not every fight warrants having a disc priest, and not every fight warrants using a holy priest.

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  15. #135
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    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Having at least one disc for raid is must for every encounter anyways Ethos
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  16. #136
    Herald of the Titans -Ethos-'s Avatar
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    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Firefighter = Holy.

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  17. #137
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    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Ther's a terrible misunderstanding since when Val'anyr has come out.

    People are thinking that;

    It shields= It will be the BEST on a class that already shields!

    WRONG.


    The fact that Discipline puts a fuckload of barriers between the boss hit and the tank does not mean that it will be improved with a weapon that will shields too.

    In fact, this weapon is way more efficient on an Holy Priest.

  18. #138

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    This thread starts to get full of similar posts. There are obviously new posters that did not read the thread.
    To recap, we can read about these facts:

    *This is a good mace in the hands of a good healer, any healer.
    *A high hps healer will make more use of the absorb procs.
    *A tankhealer will benefit the most from this, since shields on the tank is more desireable than random raidshields.
    *Looking at pure math, it is very hard to decline that a holy pally MT healer would be the best candidate (for best use of the proc)
    *Overhealing + Val'anyr is great. (Transfering a percentage of the overhealing into something useful)
    *In terms of discpriest vs holypriest getting the mace, most tend to agree that a priest who can play and switch between specs will make good use of it.
    *Discpriest with this mace is good, but not quite getting the same benefit as some other healers.
    *The overall difference you will see with giving to X or Y healer is small, taken they both are equally good healers. (Raid perspective)

    Most posters seem to agree on these points, and there is really no reason to not agree on them as they are common sense.

  19. #139

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Really the only issue that needs to be addressed is this: the OP's GM wants to switch to disc if/when he get his mace. In reality, he should be smart enough to know when to go holy and when to go disc, in which case the mace will be good for that particular fight in the hands of a healer who knows what he is doing.

    Can we stop now?

  20. #140

    Re: Val'anyr and the Disc Priest

    Quote from: Antisocial on July 15, 2009, 11:03:51 pm
    A disc priest with Val'Anyr is bad, but a disc priest healing a tank with a paladin using Val'Anyr is great.

    Also, to the guy on the first page talking about "thinking outside the box", thinking outside the box isn't a substitute for real arguments, don't use it any more please
    People thought yogg+0 was impossible until a "guild thought outside the box" and came up with a strat that gave them the world first. Do people argue that they shouldn't get the world first for thinking outside the box?

    The guy on the front page is saying think of the total amount of and healing and absorbed damage(Val'anyr+DA) a disc priest will get and compare THAT to the amount of healing and absorbed damage(From Val'anyr) that a non-disc healer will get. Now we just need someone who is good at theorycrafting to come up with the numbers for that.
    They thought outside the box, they didnt disguise lacking arguments with "thinking outside the box", big difference.

    Disc priests have bad synergy with the mace, just because discs toolbox includes absorbs, that more absorbs would somehow be better for disc than other classes.
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