Question about Vindication Change

[Vashir]

So I noticed that per MMO the new PTR form of Vindication reads:

"Vindication will reduce AP by 23/46"


Does that really mean that it only reduces attack power by 46 points? If yes, am I the only one that thinks that's waaay underwhelming?

If no, can someone help clarify what that actually means (or if perhaps it's just at typo)?

[Mysmere]

So I noticed that per MMO the new PTR form of Vindication reads:

"Vindication will reduce AP by 23/46"


Does that really mean that it only reduces attack power by 46 points? If yes, am I the only one that thinks that's waaay underwhelming?

If no, can someone help clarify what that actually means (or if perhaps it's just at typo)?

the talent shows it as seen by a lvl 1.

the end result is like 540 at 80

[Evereghalo]

the talent shows it as seen by a lvl 1.

the end result is like 540 at 80

Do most the ret paladiins think they will take this for PvE fights as well?

IMO paladins should get a talkent that drops the SP insteard of AP or Both.

[Kreth]

Do most the ret paladiins think they will take this for PvE fights as well?

IMO paladins should get a talkent that drops the SP insteard of AP or Both.

Well you've got to ask yourself- what else is there to take?

[Azharok]

No, I'd take Divine Purpose over Justification.

My 3.2 PvE build

[Prentice]

No, I'd take Divine Purpose over Justification.

My 3.2 PvE build

How do you justify Divine Purpose for PvE?? Unless you are too cheap to dualspec and use this spec for PvP as well, it does you no good in PvE. My problem is that I find myself 1 talent point shy of any kind of ideal PvE spec( thats without Divine Purpose). Our guild MT is a prot pally. While he could spec into Vindication if he wanted to, it would be a threat loss for him.

Without sacrificing bonus damage from SotP, the only way I can pull off putting 2/2 into Vindication is to sacrifice Divine Sacrifice. I doubt this would be an option because I am part of the CD rotation on so many boss fights in Uld25. I know that DSac would be more of a priority to my guild when Demo shout can be done by one of the 2-3 DPS warriors.

Edit: Initially, I just saw the structure of your talent points and assumed that you max'd everything you put points. Upon further inspection, I realized that you should never take part of any DPS theorycrafting or Talent build conversation. Going 1/2 Imp Judgement?? Are you kidding?? Taking PvP talents and not even claiming a mandatory DPS talent is pretty terrible.

[Azharok]

Good point actually, I thought I clicked 2/2. 1 point short then :/.

I wouldn't use Vindication/Justification because we always have a warrior that can have demo shout up on the target (our MT has Imp Demo shout). Since buffs and debuffs are so widespread across classes there is no point to have EVERY single buff / debuff in your spec because someone else can bring it.

I have BoK and Imp BoM, because I prefer having a 30min "don't think about" buff than having to nag at our warriors (when they are raiding) for a Battleshout. And besides cept a few bosses, they don't hit hard enough to justify using/wasting 2points to pick up Vindication.

And like you said, if having Vindication means no DSac I'd rather keep Dsac, it is worth more in terms of raid survival than Vindication.

[Nikoll]

i'll probaly spec it out of lack of where to put points. idk. My guilds prot pally said he planned on specing it.

[Prentice]

Good point actually, I thought I clicked 2/2. 1 point short then :/.

I wouldn't use Vindication/Justification because we always have a warrior that can have demo shout up on the target (our MT has Imp Demo shout). Since buffs and debuffs are so widespread across classes there is no point to have EVERY single buff / debuff in your spec because someone else can bring it.

I have BoK and Imp BoM, because I prefer having a 30min "don't think about" buff than having to nag at our warriors (when they are raiding) for a Battleshout. And besides cept a few bosses, they don't hit hard enough to justify using/wasting 2points to pick up Vindication.

And like you said, if having Vindication means no DSac I'd rather keep Dsac, it is worth more in terms of raid survival than Vindication.

I'd still like to know how you justify spec'ing into Divine Purpose for PvE. I am very interested in knowing what you gain from it.

[Sinraél]

I'd still like to know how you justify spec'ing into Divine Purpose for PvE. I am very interested in knowing what you gain from it.

I'd like to know this aswell, if it's a PvE spec it seems pretty weird.

[Azharok]

Because it is a much use than Vindication .... not very much . Granted if you don't have a DPS war in your raid it will be useful, but as far as my guild goes, we won't need it.

[Krekko]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...&version=10072

or

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...&version=10072

That will be my dual spec set up. Each depending on if the raid has Imp Might or Vindication.

[Alinor]

No, I'd take Divine Purpose over Justification.

My 3.2 PvE build

I want to suggest that Seal Of Command better option for some situations when against multiple mobs, I think it is good idea to grab it.

[lolbrobot]

Because it is a much use than Vindication .... not very much . Granted if you don't have a DPS war in your raid it will be useful, but as far as my guild goes, we won't need it.

something you put up passively over something a dps warrior has to spend rage and a global cooldown on is a pretty easy decision. our ret paladins(at least one) will have it, so i don't have to demo shout anymore.

[m4e]

I want to suggest that Seal Of Command better option for some situations when against multiple mobs, I think it is good idea to grab it.

you will NOT use Command for PvE.... "Why" you may ask...because of this... http://ptr.wowhead.com/?item=47661

As for a base Ret talent build, your base build should look like this...

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...&version=10072

this build gives you 3 talent points to place where you please. Being that we seem to be having some issues with mana on the current PTR, it looks like you will want to dump the 3 points into Divine Intelect and skip out on Pursuit of Justice.

[Adamson]

this build gives you 3 talent points to place where you please. Being that we seem to be having some issues with mana on the current PTR, it looks like you will want to dump the 3 points into Divine Intelect and skip out on Pursuit of Justice.

AHAHAHhAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAAHA


*takes breath***

lol



__________________________________________


To provide some construct to my post:

Spec'ing 5/5 into divine intellect would net you ~150 mana, maybe 250-300 mana raid buffed. GG, you earned yourself an extra crusader strike.

The size of your mana pool means nothing.

Spec'ing into divine intellect as ret makes 0 sense whatsoever. It's like holy paladins spec'ing into strength so they can kill totems better.


Edit2: On a side note, pursuit of justice is hands down one of the strongest and most clear cut dps increase we have. Skipping out on the talent for anything from the holy tree is bass-ackwards.

[Nikoll]

Skipping out on the talent for anything from the holy tree is bass-ackwards.

SotP?

[Adamson]

SotP?

No, skipping pursuit of justice for divine intellect.

Notice where in the sentence before I had prefaced the statement with pursuit of justice.

[Prinsesa]

As for a base Ret talent build, your base build should look like this...

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...&version=10072

this build gives you 3 talent points to place where you please. Being that we seem to be having some issues with mana on the current PTR, it looks like you will want to dump the 3 points into Divine Intelect and skip out on Pursuit of Justice.

Since JOL was changed to heal a percentage of the attacker's max HP, its synergy with Divinity has gone way down, and since a Ret Paladin wouldn't be casting enough FOL's for the bonus healing to matter anyway, I doubt Divinity is a good investment.

I acknowledge that you're probably taking it as the only useful pre-requisite for Divine Sacrifice, but you definitely should NOT give up Pursuit of Justice, as movement speed is a silent DPS talent.

Personally, my talent build would probably look like this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...&version=10072

In the end, the choice is between 1 point in Vindication and 1 point in Divine Sacrifice, since the need for Seals of the Pure means Ret Paladins can no longer take 100% of their utility and 100% of their DPS talents at the same time. However, I do consider Vindication to be much more important than Divine Sacrifice, since the other current methods of applying an AP debuff are very cumbersome to use, tend to be forgotten, and tend to be un-improved.

Having a Ret Paladin provide the equivalent of 5/5 Improved Demoralizing Shout with 100% uptime at no cost to his own DPS is something I'd consider to be a better deal than Divine Sacrifice.

[Adamson]

Warriors are already bringing demo shout, and vindication doesn't stack with it. So unless you're not raiding with any warriors.