Frost Tanking and TPS

[xxzincxx]

Hello Fellow DKs,

I am a main tank for a 25 man raiding guild working on Ulduar. Here's my armory link (frost spec is the one i tank with):

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...esbeh%C3%A4lte

I have recently been having problems with my threat. Mages and warlocks are right on my ass waiting for me to produce some good threat so they can do some better dmg. When i crit, i'm up over 6-8k tps, but when i am not critting, im down at like 4.5k-5.5k. That's just not enough when you have a lock pushing 7-8k tps (as far as omen is concerned).

I have runestrike macro'd to all of my strikes, so if its up, it will go off w/o me having to push anything. I also have reached 8% expertise so i wont get dodges anymore.

My single target rotation is: IT - PS - HB - BS - BS - Dump - repeat.

Am i doing something wrong? Should i be stacking something other than stam?

I plan to stay frost through WotLK, and would love some pointers if im doing something wrong.

Thank you in advance.

[mebashumgud]

well the main problem i see is that ur rotation is messed up

if u have the hb glyph, then u rly dont need it/ps but if u want to do double diseases than u do it > ps > oblit > bsx2

or if u have the hb glyph then jsut be hb > oblit > bsx2 and then 3 oblits and hb when rime probs

personally if its single target i would go blood, i main tank most bosses of ulduar for my guild, and blood is the way to go for single target threat

the only fight where anyone pulls off of me is hodir or vezax, jsut b/c of the insane buffs the casters get close

also i jsut dont like ur spec

for frost i go with something like this

http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...00000000000000

uve got to max out rime for frost tanking, i personally dont like taking icy talons as a tank, but its whatever, i generally run with another dk that does it

[General Vezax]

^^ what he said. Try doing the single disease frost rotation. For talents, ditch Epidemic and Acclimation and fill up Rime.

HB-OB-BS-BS
OB-OB-OB

replace an OB with HB when FF is about to run out, and use HB on rime procs.

[rabbimojo]

...
Replace your AMS and UbA Glyphs with Frost Strike and Rune Strike glyphs.
...

This is probably one of the most valuable suggestions you'll get for boosting threat.

You may also want to consider changing out a trink for a threat trink like 90str Greatness.
Lastly, legs/belt, neck, those red sockets could be 8str/12sta gems without losing a whole lot of stam, but picking up a healthy bit of strength.

Unless you're doing HMs, you're probably well above what you need for stam/HP, and your avoidance is quite high as well. This is why I'd recommend considering a threat trinket for fights where you aren't in desperate need of HP.

[nobanme]

^^ what he said. Try doing the single disease frost rotation. For talents, ditch Epidemic and Acclimation and fill up Rime.

HB-OB-BS-BS
OB-OB-OB

replace an OB with HB when FF is about to run out, and use HB on rime procs.

This.

Runic Dumps with frost strike when you are in excess rp.

[xxzincxx]

Thank you for your responses. I will try this out tonight.

[Jigglypuff]

Frost Rotation:

Single Target
PS – IT – OB – BS – BS – OB – OB – PS – IT

Multiple Targets/AoE
DnD – PS – IT – PT – BB – HB – BB

Runic Power Usage
With Death Coil, Rune Strike and Frost Strike we have 3 abilities to use Runic Power on. The priority of using Rune Strike still holds true, however using Frost Strike with a Killing Machine proc should give you an equal amount of threat. Don't ever waste Runic Power on Death Coil.

Rime procs
A free Howling Blast is pretty handy in both single target and AoE situations. If you get fortunate enough to gain a Killing Machine proc in AoE situations then use it for Howling Blast, because that will give you an insane amount of threat and also some pretty big numbers on your screen.

Major Glyphs should be Unbreakable Armor, Obliterate then as yourd 3rd you can choose between Frost Strike and Rune Strike

As for now there are only 2 viable Sigils in the game:
Sigil of Awareness which is being used most of the time because it boosts your threat by a lot.
Sigil of Deflection use this for fast or very hard hitting bosses.

The usage of those Sigils isn't bound to any spec, they are good for all of them. However Sigil of Deflection can be a major threat loss, so be 100% aware on when to use it. General Vezax is for example a boss where Sigil of Awareness is king.

All of the above comes from Ensidia's DK tanking guide, to be honest you're not the only person in this thread who needs to be schooled so: http://ensidia.com/home/guides/tanking-death-knight/

NOW WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU INCLUDE HB IN A SINGLE TARGET THREAT ROTATION

[Mapex]

Ensidia says Unbreakable Armor is great. Wtf? It's situational at best (AOE tanking only) and sucks for hard hitting bosses compared to Vampiric Blood.

And Sigil of Awareness being better than the non-mentioned Sigil of the Vengeful Heart for threat? Seriously? With Scent of Blood you have enough RP to throw out DCs and FSs to your hearts content when RS isn't proccing. Insane threat from that Sigil compared to Awareness, especially when you factor in 3.2's change to Unholy Blight for Unholy. ATM, Vengeful Heart is king for both Frost and Blood and will only be amazing when next patch hits for Unholy.

[nobanme]

NOW WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU INCLUDE HB IN A SINGLE TARGET THREAT ROTATION

Because single disease rotations work just as well as double disease rotations, with howling blast glyph you never need to cast it or ps.

You go -
hb, ob, bs, bs, ob, ob, ob

When rime procs you have a free disease refresher which gives you an extra obliterate, and killing machine procs for hb > killing machine procs for it.

I play the single disease rotation as frost as standard for either dps or tanking.
For dps though, blood is still my main spec, but for fights with a decent amount of AoE, frost owns blood and unholy.

Killing machine + howling blast = 9-10k crits on every single mob (think freya adds, mimiron phase 3/4, yoggy phase 3), the dps you pump out just goes insane (talking 10k+).

[neonanaski]

I assume OP is talking about single target threat here...

First, throw "rotation" out. Priority system instead. When KM procs, you Frost Strike. Otherwise, you obliterate. Pestilence to refresh BOTH diseases.
I don't like HB glyph. I find Disease far more useful. You IT/PS once, and you're done. Pestilence instead of gimpy blood strike, fair trade for harder hitting Obliterates. Ob with my gear hits for about 3k average more than HB. The 30+% crit rate is nice too.

[nobanme]

I assume OP is talking about single target threat here...

First, throw "rotation" out. Priority system instead. When KM procs, you Frost Strike. Otherwise, you obliterate. Pestilence to refresh BOTH diseases.
I don't like HB glyph. I find Disease far more useful. You IT/PS once, and you're done. Pestilence instead of gimpy blood strike, fair trade for harder hitting Obliterates. Ob with my gear hits for about 3k average more than HB. The 30+% crit rate is nice too.

Killing machine doesnt affect obliterate. (not sure if you was implying that).

Not going to disagree with your methods though, with 2 diseases, obliterates do indeed hit harder, but with the 1 disease rotation you do more obliterates because rime is a free howling blast which means you get to refresh your disease at 0 cost meaning you can do an extra obliterate.

They both provide more of something in their own way.

1 disease or 2 play just as well as each other, i cant say ive ever noticed any more dps or tps with either playstyle on single target. The 1 disease method is superior for AoE though from my experience.

[xxzincxx]

Well, i thank you guys again. Last night in 25 man naxx i was consistently doing 1500-2000 more TPS than i used to do single target. You guys rock.

/bow

[Dukamok]

Frost Rotation:

Single Target
PS – IT – OB – BS – BS – OB – OB – PS – IT

Multiple Targets/AoE
DnD – PS – IT – PT – BB – HB – BB

Runic Power Usage
With Death Coil, Rune Strike and Frost Strike we have 3 abilities to use Runic Power on. The priority of using Rune Strike still holds true, however using Frost Strike with a Killing Machine proc should give you an equal amount of threat. Don't ever waste Runic Power on Death Coil.

Rime procs
A free Howling Blast is pretty handy in both single target and AoE situations. If you get fortunate enough to gain a Killing Machine proc in AoE situations then use it for Howling Blast, because that will give you an insane amount of threat and also some pretty big numbers on your screen.

Major Glyphs should be Unbreakable Armor, Obliterate then as yourd 3rd you can choose between Frost Strike and Rune Strike

As for now there are only 2 viable Sigils in the game:
Sigil of Awareness which is being used most of the time because it boosts your threat by a lot.
Sigil of Deflection use this for fast or very hard hitting bosses.

The usage of those Sigils isn't bound to any spec, they are good for all of them. However Sigil of Deflection can be a major threat loss, so be 100% aware on when to use it. General Vezax is for example a boss where Sigil of Awareness is king.

All of the above comes from Ensidia's DK tanking guide, to be honest you're not the only person in this thread who needs to be schooled so: http://ensidia.com/home/guides/tanking-death-knight/

NOW WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU INCLUDE HB IN A SINGLE TARGET THREAT ROTATION

Can I be a sheep too!?

Glyph of HB rotations are fine. The extra DPS you get from having a hard hitting HB in every rotation balances out the loss of a disease and it's effect on OB damage. I've tanked with both and the TPS difference was hard to tell due to lots of RNG and fight differences, but for the most part it seemed close. Personally, I love the HB build/rotation just because it's more unorthodox for DKs and finally lets you get rid of that god forsaken IT+PS BEFORE EVERY ROTATION lol. It's a refreshing change after playing one for some months.

[xxzincxx]

Personally i like the IT - PS - OB rotation because i spec into icy talons. The enhancement shaman we have doesn't like to live as much as i do, as if i die, the fight is most likely over.

[deadrap]

The highest TPS rotation you can start with is IT BS Bloodtap OB OB Rune Dump and continue the rotation adding in PS at some point.

[nobanme]

What benefits would you get from wasting runes on PS?

If you start with PS or your diseases fall off your IT gets more benefit from glacier rot.

Apart from this point plus the fact your obliterates hit harder with 2 disease, i really dont understand what you would intend to use a spae unholy rune for, for anything other than plague strike if you decide to roll with 2 disease rotations ???

[Coldkil]

@lulzpie: can you provide a build for frost tanking? im using frost for dps, with HB glyph and i know to play the cycle a bit.

im blood now for tanking, but i really want to switch frost.

[Coldkil]

why 3/3 death rune mastery? not a flame, just curious

[nobanme]

Ok, here goes:

Glacier Rot: 20% more damage on IT? Woah, that's something I'd waste an UH rune for, because IT is our main source of threat, OH WAIT!
Obliterate however costs 1 UH Rune and 1 Frost Rune, and I hope you agree with me when I say Oliterate > PS?
Also Howling Blast costs 1 UH Rune and 1 Frost Rune, and I hope you agree with me when I say HB > PS?
Point is, you don't have spare UH Runes (the point is, if you use icy touch, you DO have a spare uh rune), as you need them for your doublerune attacks (you cant use an extra double attack if you already used icy touch as 1 frost rune is gone). And because of the Increases given to targets with FF (AND NOT PS!) in the frosttree, there honestly is no point on using it in this specc, as it only slows you down from spamming your doublerune abilities. Which is a bad thing.

Yes?

No. You are confused.

Whenever you use IT you lose the ability to use an unholy rune for anything that costs 1 frost rune + 1 unholy rune.
If you use IT the ONLY thing you can use that spare unholy rune for is plague strike.

You either go with a 1 disease rotation where you put frost fever up with howling blast + glyph
OR
You go with a 2 disease rotation where you use IT + PS.

Since Glacier Rot gives IT an extra 20% dmg, it is much more efficient to start with plague strike if you go with a 2 disease rotation when talking about maximising tps/dps.

edit - i added some notes and underlined them so you can see where you went wrong.

[nobanme]

._. Sadface, so tell me about this Deatknight class you're playing that doesn't have Death Runes coming from Blood Runes?

edit: I underlined some parts to let you know where you went wrong.

You miss the point.

2 disease rotation = harder hitting oblits.
PS, IT, OB, BS, BS, OB, OB, OB (the death runes give the extra oblit)

1 disease rotation (with hb glyph) = more oblits
HB, OB, BS, BS, OB, OB, OB (the death runes give the extra oblit)
(rime proc = free disease refresh = extra oblits)


If you try a 1 disease rotation with icy touch you end up with this -
IT, OB, BS, BS, OB, OB, OB (1 unholy rune not used, and nothing else to use it for + weaker hitting oblits)


As i said, you are confused