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  1. #21

    Re: Where do you see prot pallys in 3.2....?

    The idea of a block set being better is that the lower damage incoming allows block value to catch up..

    E.g. 3k hits after armour and talents:

    BV set has roughly 2k BV, Avoidance/ EH set has 1k BV.
    BV set has 50% avoidance, Avoidance set has 60%.

    In 100 hits, the BV set will take on average 50 hits of 1k each.. the avoidance set would take 40 hits of 2k each.

    Which would make the BV set better at mitigating the damage.

    The bigger the hits after armour and talents are, the worse BV scales in relation to them as it's a static reduction.

    An avoidance geared tank on loatheb will take more damage than a tank stacking BV.

    And with the whole BV is static thing, this means that the harder bosses hit, the worse BV is as mitigation.. 2k off of 3k is a huge amount, but 2k off of 30k is almost insignificant.


    Replying to the guy who has a dk with 40k unbuffed, I'm guess he is a mongrel spec DK that went for all of the stam talents in his build, but if he isn't.. fair play to him. I was actually referring to paladins in my post though, not DKs, but this just intensifies the problem even further to be honest..

    45k HP DKs and 50-55k hp druids.. the bosses are going to have to hit mighty hard. or it will just be a druid tank meatshield deal for every fight.

    Having thought about it, even with the nerfs to DKs, just with the nature of how druids tank, high armour, high HP and soak up the damage, its hard to think of any scenario where they wouldnt shine.

    The main problem lies within the fact that a fast hitting, low damage boss wouldn't need much healing, making the encounter trivial, unless there were some sort of weird and wonderful mechanic involved.. and then the focus isnt on the tank doing a good job, is it?
    Does anyone go into the loatheb fight when and say "GJ" to a tank for not dying at the end?

    The essence of tanking is having a character than makes the seemingly impossible, possible.. unfortunately shield tanks are painted into a corner, and changing block and slightly nerfing dodge wont nearly be enough to fix it.

    I'm not gonna toss around the word overhaul, because it would be ridiculous to do so mid-expansion, but for shields to be even remotely effective they need somethign big that isn't too much of RNG.. I was thinking fo soemthign like a chance on block to increase your block value for that hit by the armour value of the shield, but this would lead to spikey damage.. the only other option is to have it cooldown based, perhaps this could be a change to holy shield and shield block?

  2. #22

    Re: Where do you see prot pallys in 3.2....?

    First, drop the myth about "druid's high armor". You have no clues on the current armor values, I play both a paladin and a druid and I can tell you, it's not any big difference.
    Second, a 2.5k block (PTR with avoidance set) means 10% off EVERY 25k hit, which isn't exactly cake. For bosses with a decent speed, that's WAY more mitigation than what Bears offer even accounting for Savage Defense, due to the difference in activation.

    If ANY of you think a 6k block value is necessary, please reroll. NO class at the moment takes a so reduced amount of damage. A 25k hit on your pala won't be a 19k hit, not on a warrior, not on a druid, not on a DK. Period.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  3. #23
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Where do you see prot pallys in 3.2....?

    Quote Originally Posted by arel00
    First, drop the myth about "druid's high armor". You have no clues on the current armor values, I play both a paladin and a druid and I can tell you, it's not any big difference.
    Second, a 2.5k block (PTR with avoidance set) means 10% off EVERY 25k hit, which isn't exactly cake. For bosses with a decent speed, that's WAY more mitigation than what Bears offer even accounting for Savage Defense, due to the difference in activation.

    If ANY of you think a 6k block value is necessary, please reroll. NO class at the moment takes a so reduced amount of damage. A 25k hit on your pala won't be a 19k hit, not on a warrior, not on a druid, not on a DK. Period.
    Except on a DK with no defense that pops IBF

  4. #24

    Re: Where do you see prot pallys in 3.2....?

    Everyone seems to think that DK's will be worthless post 3.2. They won't be. Anyone with half a brain will be able to see that DK's are still a premier magic tank, still have high AoE threat, and still high amazing cooldowns.

  5. #25
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    Re: Where do you see prot pallys in 3.2....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skiball
    Let me dispell myths about the block value changes. As of right now when fully raid buffed with libram of sacred shield, I have around 1800-1900 block value, and I stay almost pure avoidance for gear with one or two exceptions. They put DR at 30 times your level with a cap at 34.5% or around there. That would make 2400 block value the limit before DR. We are talking a difference of 600 block value. changing one piece after they double the block value from items would get me close to that cap.

    This buff to block value is really nothing significant with the DR and caps. Blocking 600 more damage off a 20-25k hit will not make me switch my gear to block nor does it help warrior and paladins really that much. The cap they put in place to reign in pvp block damage effectively stopped any progress they tried making with this block buff. In order for block valkue to be really significant for damage reduction (as far as threat it is fine now) it would have to block something retarded like 6-10K of the damage.

    Ardent defender is a really neat buff, however since you can't chose when you use it, it is not really the second cooldown they tried giving paladins. I thought Paladin tanking was just fine the way it is currently. There is nothing a paladin can't tank. DKs weren't that OP as my guild actually went a while wthout a steady reliable one throughout our first ulduar clear.

    Lastly I would like to rid the myth that block is some how better against fast hitting bosses/aoe trash and avoidance is better against slow hard hitting ones. Putting on both my block set and avoidance set I found that I actually reduce damage more with high avoidance regardless of what type of mob or mobs I am tanking. Such is thre state of how bad block really is and how high avoidance is. THis was confirmed when I tanked the same boss and recount showed I took less damage with the avoidance set by about 5% and tankpoints showng my flat damage reduction as 4.6% more with an avoidance set on.

    Those are my thoughts and observations for pally 3.2, sorry for the long post.
    I call bullshit, if ur BV is higher than how hard the mobs hit you for, then u should take practically no damage unless ur HS runs outa charges, and if that happens then gg redoubt teeds to start procing around that time

  6. #26
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Where do you see prot pallys in 3.2....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Offhand
    Everyone seems to think that DK's will be worthless post 3.2. They won't be. Anyone with half a brain will be able to see that DK's are still a premier magic tank, still have high AoE threat, and still high amazing cooldowns.
    If is in regard to my post above, don't worry- My DK is a Frost tank xD

    Simply, 20% of 25k is 5k, and 25k-5k = 20k, which is almost 19k

    And if it wasn't directed at myself: I agree, DKs have the most tools when it comes to dealing with magical damage; Bosses that do on a greater ratio of 3:1 in Magical to Physical damage proportion (like Fathom-Guard Caribdis) will be easily tanked by a DK, while maybe harassing the other Tanking classes a bit.

  7. #27

    Re: Where do you see prot pallys in 3.2....?

    Quote Originally Posted by lave
    with 3.2 i see a change there - for the first time people may say "damn that boss is hard - who tanks? the paladin? ok fine"
    Even though I love to see the change in here, that Paladins can (hopefully will be for a long time) be Main Tanks.
    However, I'd rather see them saying "This boss is hard, okay <insert name of random Protadin> you tank him."

    Paladins being MT in raids is awesome, however, how much MT are we actually?
    Protadins in 3.2 will be awesome and all, I just hope the Raid Leaders can see it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathflame
    Going for avoidance is like playing Russian Roulette.
    Quote Originally Posted by GaaraofSand
    It's time to eat Grandpa!
    It's time to eat, Grandpa!

    Grammar.. it saves lives.

  8. #28

    Re: Where do you see prot pallys in 3.2....?

    Ariel, all I can say is that you really underestimate the value of armour...

  9. #29

    Re: Where do you see prot pallys in 3.2....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightstrike
    Ariel, all I can say is that you really underestimate the value of armour...
    Beside being Arel and not Ariel... :P

    I don't. I built quite complex models for both Bears and Paladins to see how mitigation/avoidance are affecting the damage taken, and how the TTL is changing when a new patch comes and messed with the mechanics.
    I know very well how strong armor is, how the scaling factor on damage is linear (which most people never realize) and so on. Still, I can theorycraft *and* check in game the damage on two different tanks, and then compare the data.

    If we talk about cooldowns like Ronark did, ok, then the situation depends on them. But as for static mitigation, Block isn't sub-par. The thing is, most players, and Blizzard aswell to some extent, would just like to have some "mitigation on-demand", a bit like warriors' Shield Block after 3.0 (failed in being implemented) or some DK cooldowns. They stated it very clearly "if block has to be a strong mitigation, then forget block cap".
    What noone gets is that mitigation cooldowns have inevitably three downsides: first, they tend to make damage bursty, because while good when active, your mitigation is bound to fall back when the cooldown wears off. Second, they are situationally useless, means that while you may be fine with that "incoming boss bomb" in a specific hardmode, you may be a pain to heal on the rest, because your average damage is higher even if you're surviving the burst well. Third, they are IMPOSSIBLE to balance for PvP, while it's clear that they've been created for a purely PvE utility, and so they tend to be good ideas soon nerfed to the ground because of whiners.

    As for me, if I'm asking to trade Holy Shield for Shield Block, then the answer is, no thanks, I'll keep the block cap and mitigate less.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    I don't do math, blind assumptions work so much better for me.

  10. #30

    Re: Where do you see prot pallys in 3.2....?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheeZ

    Paladins being MT in raids is awesome, however, how much MT are we actually?
    Protadins in 3.2 will be awesome and all, I just hope the Raid Leaders can see it.
    Unless your raid leader is a Paladin tank who already tanks 99% of bosses or throws a Warrior on it just because they're a Warrior.

    Sad but true. Some RL just don't bother to know what tanks are better at what bosses and intentionally gimp the boss fight.
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    Deathwing will come and go RAWR RAWR IM A DWAGON
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyCasual View Post
    There's no point in saying this, even if you slap them upside down and inside out with the truth, the tin foil hat brigade will continue to believe the opposite.

  11. #31

    Re: Where do you see prot pallys in 3.2....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thassaria
    Like has been said. Death Knights have been nerfed on everything but their Avoidance.
    Agility and Dodge Rating got nerfed so you need more of each to get Dodge %. So, yes, DK's avoidance was nerfed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightstrike
    I think the nerfs to kitty druids will make more people go back to tank as I believe a lot of the druid tanks decided to take advantage of the high cat dps while dks were ruling the roost.
    nerfs are miniscule and ferals will remain at the top spots on the meters.

    We've run with a Pally MT for all of Ulduar and have yet to encounter any problems. He requires more uses of saves due to lack of CDs but it's a decent trade for never having to worry about aggro.


  12. #32

    Re: Where do you see prot pallys in 3.2....?

    There is actually no problem for any tank 3.2, warriors are slightly coming from behind but you know blizzard stated that they want less protection warriors.

    The significant problem lies ahead is block is not scaling with incoming damage, but armor is. So the problem between paladins/warriors vs dks/druids are armor reduction. A guy is telling that there is not much difference in armor btw a paladin and a druid. Wrong... I am even hitting 69-70% armor reduction with ancestral fortitude/inspiration. So i assume a druid or a dk can hit 75% easily. 5-6% more armor mitigation is not a slight difference. Assume you are not kiting vezax, you may get a hit around 65-70k (unmitigated), 6% of this is around 4k. well think about a little... there is an armor topic in tankspots forum about armor actually doesn't have any diminishing returns, the more you have the more you have survivability. same thing is not true for block mitigation since it is not scaling with incoming damage.

    At the end, they gave paladins a little more chance to survive these kind of burst damage with AD, but warriors will not be this lucky.

    We have also more problems as paladins with block value gear; we don't need block rating on gear, i am looking for a gear that has only BV on it, show me one except the T8/8.5 gloves at this tier, although this is a known problem by everyone. So what i am doing is to find gear that has armor on it and i recently checked rawr and it mostly shows that the gear that has armor on it always better than anything else. So my point is we are forced to get armor from gear, where we supposed to get BV for mitigation since we are wielding a shield. Blizzard says they are aware of the block bla bla bla. We passed 1 year with this bull poo already, hopefully this will change in 4.0.

    Conclusion, they tweaked us with AD a bit, but druids and dks will still be reliable on burst damage (both physical and magical) due to their high armor and high hp.

  13. #33
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: Where do you see prot pallys in 3.2....?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sket
    only place, where i see pally is hogger tanking :-*
    Like in the Trail of the Crusader?

    /+1 Up

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