Like the topic says
Like the topic says
Tanking 3.2 content.Originally Posted by Saphira
At the top.
You don't /thread yourself, so I'll do it for you.Originally Posted by Ronark
Originally Posted by Qieth
Originally Posted by Ronark
i agree that TS has made a bad post himself, but lets try to give a broader answer then 'tanking'.
ill kick off
the recent nerfs to DK's and their cooldowns and increase of block value make paladins warriors more even. i dont know how druids are as tank as we barely use one.
the ardent defender change is something that will make paladin tanks even more favorable then warriors i guess.
Driving a truckload full of dk- bear- and warriortanks to the employment agency after we t-t-take over every tank position in every raid.
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Like has been said. Death Knights have been nerfed on everything but their Avoidance. Paladins and Warriors have been buffed on Block. Paladins got Ardent Defender Buff.
So like Iktankniet said, Paladins at the top, Warriors right after, Druids then and Death Knights in the back.
I think the nerfs to kitty druids will make more people go back to tank as I believe a lot of the druid tanks decided to take advantage of the high cat dps while dks were ruling the roost.
The nerfs to DK should bring them more inline with the other tanks, but I don't see the changes to block being that significant in the whole scale of things. After all, it is only on armour, and unless the T9 level gear does indeed come with like twice as much BV as T8, then block is still gonna suck.
Having a look at the tier sets, I believe the HP gain between t8 and t9 is about 5k.. so we're gonna be looking at tanks with 40k health unbuffed, and who knows what druids are gonna have :/
That can only mean that there are going to be situations with the following:
1) Even harder hitting bosses than ulduar.
2) Magical Damage bosses
3) Bosses who don't hit hard, but healing is limited (like loatheb)
All through ulduar we saw 1&2, but not 3.. and this is where Blizzard fell down with their comparisons.. They kept saying that just because DK happened to be particularly good at a couple of encounters, they werent overpowered.. but what they didn't take into account is that they were not gimped in any way shape or form in any of the other encounters.. whereas paladins for example are in ways such as block being poor compared to avoidance and hp, and not having a second cooldown. In which case everyone had a reason to take a DK tank.. but no reasons to leave one out.
With the AD change I see prot paladins being used for progression a lot.. I still think gearing for pure avoidance will be better than stacking block.. thoguh a lot of avoidance gear has block on it now so it is better itemised than it was before with a lot of block value gear also having block rating on it.. which nobody needed and was just wasted itemisation.
I don't have any confidence in my answers here because pvp will probably get all of our new changes nerfed to the ground.
As for block, i dont see how its going to change a lot.
Block Value is...
- almost always on items with block rating and without avoidance
- strong against fast hitting enemys, while raid bosses and especially hardmodes are almost always slow hard-hitters
Its still the selfmade problem. DKs are great against magic and very hard hits. Hello Blizz, stop making every boss a slow hardhitter.
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Isn't that the whole problem though...Originally Posted by Noochie
You just proved the entire point. Which is basically that you have a DK for the harder stuff... that is in essence what defines an imbalance. You didn't say that you have a better tank who plays a DK, you just said you had a DK for it..
Which implies that as long as they're not a complete moron, the class outweighs the skill.
Personally, I am better geared than our DK tank, and I would say I am at least on par with him as a player, but the simple fact is that on progression bosses, especially the hard hitters.. he can chain cooldowns to survive longer than I ever could. With most of the bosses past Auriaya (aka not Freya), hitting hard in bursts.. a DK is a superior choice.. and this is what I was getting at with the imbalance I was tlaking about earlier... I can accept that their CDs can be better in some fights than my mechanics.. but when they can tank the fights that suit my mechanics just as well as I can, there becomes a problem.
Take mimiron for example.. We usually get phase 1 out of the way just before the 4th plasma blast.. If I were tanking I could survive one before needing outside help, be is a bubble+DS from a retri pala or a guardian spirit from a priest.. a DK could rotate cooldowns to take all three without outside help. Allowing my bubble+DS and the retri paladins bubble+DS to be available for phase 2. So we had a DK tanking it.
In fact scratch what I said before.. there are no fights that favour paladins to maintank in ulduar.. the nearest I can think of is razorscale but even then when she finally comes down its a tank rotation rather than one tank taking her solidly.
The problem is, and has always been since wotlk came about with its inflated stats, is that all but a handful of bosses are burst damage, and are best tanked by someone with high EH. Paladins have their place in a number of boss encounters, but it's usually add tanking and no real tank enjoys being on add duty all of the time. This is not to say paladins cannot tank these bosses, because they can.. but why use a paladin when a DK is around? And that is the question it will always come back to.
wow, if you say that without a care I feel bad for you, really.Originally Posted by Noochie
Yea BV is buffed to double what one would normall find on gear. Right now in Uld 25 its 60-80 depending on the piece, the gear in 3.2 has 180 to 240 on it. - So yea the BV change did come out.
2) To the dumbass that said the problem is intimization, I find it funny that someone uses these forums to troll with stupid shit, but doesnt even look to read that there is NO Block Rating, on any of the paladin gear. So its safe to say, that there will be more gear with Avoidance + Block Value. which every warrior/paladin wants.
as the above posters said - thx for entirely agreeing with my point :>Originally Posted by Noochie
yeah.. we are doing great on stuff that hardly matters.
yeah.. we ARE second choice on progression (and have always been)
with 3.2 i see a change there - for the first time people may say "damn that boss is hard - who tanks? the paladin? ok fine"
i gues hes your mt because hes a neat player with high attendance, not because hes no dk/druid right?Originally Posted by Jpkto
up until now good paladins were always in the "i manage to overcome the disadvantage" situation. 3.2 might finally put us to "my class is on par, i can work on beeing better and not on beeing just as good as.."
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A dk in my guild has 40,106 hp unbuffed in full 8.5?Originally Posted by Lightstrike
Let me dispell myths about the block value changes. As of right now when fully raid buffed with libram of sacred shield, I have around 1800-1900 block value, and I stay almost pure avoidance for gear with one or two exceptions. They put DR at 30 times your level with a cap at 34.5% or around there. That would make 2400 block value the limit before DR. We are talking a difference of 600 block value. changing one piece after they double the block value from items would get me close to that cap.
This buff to block value is really nothing significant with the DR and caps. Blocking 600 more damage off a 20-25k hit will not make me switch my gear to block nor does it help warrior and paladins really that much. The cap they put in place to reign in pvp block damage effectively stopped any progress they tried making with this block buff. In order for block valkue to be really significant for damage reduction (as far as threat it is fine now) it would have to block something retarded like 6-10K of the damage.
Ardent defender is a really neat buff, however since you can't chose when you use it, it is not really the second cooldown they tried giving paladins. I thought Paladin tanking was just fine the way it is currently. There is nothing a paladin can't tank. DKs weren't that OP as my guild actually went a while wthout a steady reliable one throughout our first ulduar clear.
Lastly I would like to rid the myth that block is some how better against fast hitting bosses/aoe trash and avoidance is better against slow hard hitting ones. Putting on both my block set and avoidance set I found that I actually reduce damage more with high avoidance regardless of what type of mob or mobs I am tanking. Such is thre state of how bad block really is and how high avoidance is. THis was confirmed when I tanked the same boss and recount showed I took less damage with the avoidance set by about 5% and tankpoints showng my flat damage reduction as 4.6% more with an avoidance set on.
Those are my thoughts and observations for pally 3.2, sorry for the long post.