1. #1
    High Overlord Snoogle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    In the woods, wrestling bears.
    Posts
    167

    Engineering as lock

    Is it worth it? Right now I'm trying to decide to pick it or not. Might get it on my shaman if not on lock.
    With the haste from the glove enchant, will I have to stack less gear on haste (and getting a bit too little when the buff is not up) to not get my GCD's clipping when it's active?

  2. #2
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    6,003

    Re: Engineering as lock

    The haste on your gloves will only get activated, if you're smart about it, during non-haste procs.

    IE: If you're destruction, you cast your 3 backdraft spells and then pop it.
    IE: If you're affliction, you wait until Eradication wears off then pop it.
    IE: If you're raiding, you time it so it does not coincide with heroism, and make sure you don't have "On Hit: +Haste" trinkets.

    R.I.P. YARG

  3. #3
    High Overlord Snoogle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    In the woods, wrestling bears.
    Posts
    167

    Re: Engineering as lock

    Thanks alot Gherkin, problem is that delaying it makes it lose parts of the gain, thus making passive bonuses better.
    On the other hand Backdraft doesn't really matter, since it reduces GCD aswell, and BL's can be avoided I guess.
    What about normal conditions? Does most locks have such an amount of haste that another 320 won't screw things over?

  4. #4
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    6,003

    Re: Engineering as lock

    I raid on average 12 hours a week. As a result I cannot pick and choose my gear. I have 200 haste, and not by choice.
    Most locks will have between 300 and 400, with the 4+ days a week raiders (or the very lucky) sitting at the recommended 600.

    If you're good with numbers, 1640 haste rating will reduce a 1.5s cast to 1.0s. It's effectively the cap, since Immolate and your instants are all 1.5s. So you take this number and subtract.

    Bloodlust = 984 Haste Rating
    Backdraft = 984
    Glove enchant = 320
    Gear = XXX

    If you ever end up with a negative number, you used too much. So if you have 300 from gear, and bloodlust is up, 1640 - 984 - 300 = 356. You could pop your glove enchant if Backdraft is down. When Bloodlust is on cooldown, you pop your gloves on every cooldown.

    Basically, the goal is to have around 600 haste rating on gear so that you Incinerate x 3 on backdrafts (which won't clip the GCD) during a Bloodlust, but if you get other haste procs at the same time its essentially wasted.

    R.I.P. YARG

  5. #5
    High Overlord Snoogle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    In the woods, wrestling bears.
    Posts
    167

    Re: Engineering as lock

    Well...crap... this is getting a bit confusing.
    Immolate and your instants are all 1.5s? Instants are instants, ain't they? Immolate got a 1.5s casttime tho.

    Incinerate x3 on backdrafts during a bloodlust? You always do that, don't you, since backdraft got x3 charges?
    Or what do you mean? I'm sorry if I'm missing the point.

    So 1640 haste = 50% casting reduction.
    Incinerate got a base casttime of 2.5s, reduced to 2.25 with Emberstorm, this leaves 0.75s reduction left. 0.75/2.5=0.3 (30% haste=984)
    That would mean that incinerate would be hastecapped during a Bloodlust, but that is not the case, obviously I am doing something wrong ??? Does BL have a hidden GCD reduction? Wouldn't surprise me, otherwise it wouldn't gain 2h melee dps much.

  6. #6
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    6,003

    Re: Engineering as lock

    Some people use a Backdraft charge to do Immolate, which is a big no no during a Bloodlust.

    Instants have a 1.5s global cooldown which prevents you from casting another spell for that duration. Immolate has a 1.5 second cast time. One you can run around while casting, the other you cannot, but they are essentially the same thing.

    I think I went overboard.
    Engineering is fine but not a "best case scenario" raid profession. Just don't use your gloves during bloodlust.

    R.I.P. YARG

  7. #7
    High Overlord Snoogle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    In the woods, wrestling bears.
    Posts
    167

    Re: Engineering as lock

    Thanks again Getting my maths corrected would also be wonderful, I hate when something escapes me :P I'm pretty much best at maths in my class, though I'm only 15 which might explain it ;D

  8. #8
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    6,003

    Re: Engineering as lock

    Coming from a computer programmer, keep up the math. If you don't plan on going into sciences, pay special attention to Algebra, Geometry, and, if you can, Statistics/Probability as these have real world applications. Algebra & geometry help a lot in home and car repair (My fence broke. How much wood do I need to fix it? The posts aren't straight, what angle do I need to compensate? If I want to stagger the fence boards evenly, whats the spacing between each one?). Statistics helps you with this kind of stuff and teaches you to not be an idiot who believes what the news says word for word.

    Otherwise, all the math is important.

    R.I.P. YARG

  9. #9
    High Overlord Snoogle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    In the woods, wrestling bears.
    Posts
    167

    Re: Engineering as lock

    Yeah, I'm probably going into science or programming
    And also, whats wrong with the mats in my previous post?
    Incinerate casttime is 2.5, Bloodlust is 30%. Emberstorm is 0.25s. 2.5x0.3-0.25=1.5, which would mean that Incinerate gets hastecapped during it :-\

  10. #10
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    6,003

    Re: Engineering as lock

    Most people think its Cast time - Haste x Cast time, which is wrong. 100% haste would mean a zero cast time (holy shit imbalanced!) when it actually means half time.

    New Cast Time = Old Cast Time / (1 + Haste)

    So in the case of Incinerate:
    2.25 (With Emberstorm, as its pre-haste) / (1 + .3) = 1.73s

    320 rating = just shy of 10%, and backdraft is 30%...
    2.25 / (1 + .3 + .3 + .1) = 1.32s cast time. Still good.

    Now, if you were to cast Immolate with these up:
    1.5 / 1.7 = .88s, which means you're losing .12 seconds because you're waiting on the GCD, which can never go below 1.

    R.I.P. YARG

  11. #11
    High Overlord Snoogle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    In the woods, wrestling bears.
    Posts
    167

    Re: Engineering as lock

    Thanks a very lot for explaining that to me .
    But won't haste scale with Incinerate's base casttime, not the one after talents, and the talents being added afterwards?

  12. #12
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    6,003

    Re: Engineering as lock

    Yay google!

    You're right. Emberstorm is post-haste, but for some fucked up reason Bane is pre-haste.

    R.I.P. YARG

  13. #13
    High Overlord Snoogle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    In the woods, wrestling bears.
    Posts
    167

    Re: Engineering as lock

    ;D that is very strange, this means that Bane lowers the haste coefficent for spells, I hope it doesn't do the same to spellpower!
    Doesn't this mean that you could put less point into bane if you're very high on haste?

  14. #14
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    6,003

    Re: Engineering as lock

    Potentially, yes, but you would have to be able to reach that level without sacrificing spell power, and that won't happen. You might be able to justify 4/5 or 3/5 once you hit 30% haste, but the question then becomes how much more valuable are the other talents? The answer is not much more, so why bother?

    Regarding the Bane = Spell Power loss comment, it used to. It was called Mage Tax because Mages did a lot of damage with one spell once they started getting spell power gear (remember that spell power was all but unheard of until you started raiding Molten Core). Basically, Mages and Warlocks were balanced around Fireball being 3.0s and Shadowbolt being 2.5s, meaning you HAD to take the talent in order for the spells to work right.

    This has been removed and will be vehemently opposed should it pop back up again.

    R.I.P. YARG

  15. #15
    High Overlord Snoogle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    In the woods, wrestling bears.
    Posts
    167

    Re: Engineering as lock

    Oh, ok. Thats good to hear.
    So with this new math 600 haste aswell as those gloves + Bloodlust and Backdraft turns out:
    2.5/ (1+.3+.3+.3) + 0.25=1.06, which actually would work!
    Haste lowers GCD triggered by DoT's, is it the same with other spells? And if it does, does it stack with Backdraft? I think not.
    Just wondering, not that it matters since with backdraft up, GCD is set to 1.5x0.7=1.05, which is 0.01 sec before the calculation above

  16. #16
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    6,003

    Re: Engineering as lock

    Backdraft works with Destruction spells, so Immolate, but not Agony/Doom/Corruption.

    Getting a 1.5s cast to 1.0s takes a piddly 50% haste. 600 Haste + Bloodlust and you're there, gloves push you over.
    1.5 / (1 + 0.3 + .18) = 1.013s
    With gloves, its .95s

    You reverted to the haste calc you were using earlier.

    R.I.P. YARG

  17. #17
    High Overlord Snoogle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    In the woods, wrestling bears.
    Posts
    167

    Re: Engineering as lock

    True, Immolate won't cut it, but Incinerate would.

    Did I revert? I think I used your way of calculating now ???

    Anyway, if you pop hand enchants right after Immolate they will be gone by the time you have to refresh anyway

  18. #18
    Legendary! gherkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    6,003

    Re: Engineering as lock

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoogle
    True, Immolate won't cut it, but Incinerate would.

    Did I revert? I think I used your way of calculating now ???

    Anyway, if you pop hand enchants right after Immolate they will be gone by the time you have to refresh anyway
    Yes, so that proves you're paying attention. And really that's all you have to do. Pay attention to your cooldowns and use them appropriately.

    R.I.P. YARG

  19. #19
    High Overlord Snoogle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    In the woods, wrestling bears.
    Posts
    167

    Re: Engineering as lock

    Again thanks alot for your replies, they are very appreciated! I hope this clears out some ?'s for other Lock Engineers (not that there is many, but anyway).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •