Feral tank advise.

[Astemus]

i've clicked this thread twice and both times i have been greeted with misinformed/high and mighty "advice."

The root of the problem is how difficult it is to gauge bear gear. Bears are primarily focused on defensive, but the gear is focused on offensive. So it becomes a balancing act, are the defensive aspects of this item, taking into account the offensive stats but not using them as a major weighing, more than this other item. So, to make those decisions, you are forced to create a weight system. If you collected every theorycrafter's weights for bear gear, you'd see they are all different. So you can either adopt one as your own, or make a new one based on your needs. Most people choose to adopt one, and RAWR is the most popular. Now if I look at Rawr, it shows me that at the moment, Origins is 2nd bis next to the pvp weapon. YMMV. Rawr certainly has its flaws, but it's the only option capable of giving you the full picture including raid buffs and other gear. Some people forget that fact when they bash on Rawr for suggesting crazy stuff.

You may decide that's incorrect, and then you would go by a weight system that more favors your raid comp/playstyle. At this point, you should be either content with a weight system you've found, or you're capable of making these kinds of gearing decisions on your own. Well, that, or you're frustrated beyond belief.

[Astemus]

As far as threat goes, if I'm having threat issues, I swap some gear from tanking to dps... first trinkets, then weapon, then rings, then necklace, then cloak. Usually works out fine for me. Doing hard modes is going to be a balance no matter what, and those situations will have to be tuned with your raid. I would only suggest getting the options available to make those adjustments during raid time, as opposed to regemming. If you're a bear, you've probably got a cat set, so look at those items as possible choices to sub in.

If you want to practice or iron out threat issues, take those folks who are being threat capped to a couple heroics and bring your cat gear. Find a balance. It's not perfect, but you can feel out the options and be more prepared when making actual hard mode attempts. It's all about balance and being flexible enough to adapt to the fights.

[Sunshine]

That's what I'm saying it does - percentage wise, not the actual amount absorbed.

That's a silly statement. > Armor does not make savage defense more powerful. Armor makes the base damage you're taking less. Why would you look at a the percentage reduction on a skill that reduces by a static amount?

If I have a glass of water 50% full, then pour that water into a smaller glass, the new glass is a higher percentage full... but the effectiveness at quenching my thirst isn't "scaling" with the size of the glass, it's just a static amount.

The meaningful metric for SD is total damage absorbed over time. This scales with AP and crit, but does not scale with armor.

Remember, tanking is not about taking less damage. It's about being able to take more damage. I know druids have this complex about being sponges, but there's no need, you have it all going for you.

That aspect of tanking is about taking whatever damage is thrown at you and doing whatever you can to stay alive, whether that's avoiding it, mitigating it with armor, absorbing it with SD, or just having enough HP to withstand it. If you succeed by living to the end of the fight, you've done that part of your job, no matter how you accomplish it.

Now if I look at Rawr, it shows me that at the moment, Origins is 2nd bis next to the pvp weapon. YMMV. Rawr certainly has its flaws, but it's the only option capable of giving you the full picture including raid buffs and other gear. Some people forget that fact when they bash on Rawr for suggesting crazy stuff.

You have all raid buffs (incl fort, kings, so on) selected and still it shows you with Origin as 2nd BiS? That surprises me. I think the only way it will suggest that for me is when I either have it ignore Uld gear or when I forget to put in my buffs. Or maybe you're just using a lot of other gear that's very low stam... Interesting

[Torzak]

I almost would have thought the weapon list I provided on the page previous to this one would have stopped the debate about the weapons used for tanking.

http://www.wowhead.com/?items=2&filt....9:7.4:7.4:6.1

TV offers 400 more AP than origin of nightmares
* That means 400 more AP for threat purposes
* That means 100 physical dmg mitigation every time Savage Defense is up

TV offers 20 more AGI than origin of nightmares
* That means 20 more AGI for threat purposes
* That means 20 more AGI for dodge purposes
* That means 20 more AGI for Savage Defense procs
* That means 20 AGI worth in armor
* With kings it's really 22

TV offers 70 Hit more than origin of nightmares
* That means more threat
* That means less taunt resists
* That means more consistent Savage Defense up time (fewer occasions where you miss 4x in a row between lack of hit and/or expertise)
* That means higher up time on Infected Wounds which as far as I know works off of Spell Hit mechanics which means you want a lot of hit

TV offers 29 Stam Less than origin of nightmares
* This is the only real draw back of using TV over nightmares

TV offers 86crit more than origin of nightmares
* This means more threat
* Higher up time on Savage Defense

Between the ~22AGI (dodge, crit, armor) after kings, the 400AP (100dmg physical mitigation per Savage Defense proc), and the 86Crit all lending toward Savage Defense and the 70 hit lending toward fewer taunt resists + higher up time on Infected Wounds, there's really not a very large difference between what TV and origin of nightmares does as far as physical mitigation. If there is a difference, it's small enough that the overall significantly higher threat output of TV should make up for it as a general use tanking weapon where 29 stam isn't going to break your ability to tank a target successfully.

If an encounter is heavily reliant on maxing out your health pool, that's when you break out origin of nightmares if you don't have something much higher in the list I posted above.

[xebtria]

BUT IT HAZ ARMOR!


I think this is and will be the reason for druids still wearing origin of nightmares when they face arthas.
some will never learn.

[getefix]

I almost would have thought the weapon list I provided on the page previous to this one would have stopped the debate about the weapons used for tanking.

* That means more consistent Savage Defense up time (fewer occasions where you miss 4x in a row between lack of hit and/or expertise)

If an encounter is heavily reliant on maxing out your health pool, that's when you break out origin of nightmares if you don't have something much higher in the list I posted above.

Hit and SD have no relation. Zero.

OoN is still a decent staff with a decent stat balance. The biggest downside is the threat generation that you lack with OoN. If that's not a problem then I would easily consider wearing it on fights where I got hit really really hard.

I'm wearing OoN because Twisted Visage doesn't drop off XT... ever.... >

[Selverein]

* That means higher up time on Infected Wounds which as far as I know works off of Spell Hit mechanics which means you want a lot of hit

I can't see how that would make sense. Infected Wounds is automatically applied when you hit/crit your target with Shred, Mangle and Maul. There's no chance IF can be resisted as far as I know (or maybe the base 5% chance but I highly doubt that) or miss. Thinking of something else?

[Torzak]

Hit and SD have no relation. Zero.

If you are parried, then you miss, then are parried again, and then miss again, then that's 2 to 3 seconds (pending what was missed/parried between auto attack timed mauls/mangle/swipe/lacerate) of no possible SD proc. It's not that big of a deal, but you will get more consistent procs with more hit. It's about the relationship between you swinging, hitting, and critting successfully, and the boss's swing timer. And if your lack of hit combined with lack of expertise have you essentially missing 4 hits in a row on unlucky streaks, and then you crit 3 or 4 times in a row, what you really would have wanted to happen is to not miss and then have a crit as your every other successful swing between maul and your gcd abilities.

People argue that hit doesn't affect SD on the grounds of how it doesn't affect your crit rate. I argue that it does on the grounds that it's about trying to get as close to every other hit being a crit. Not about missing 4 times in a row between lack of expertise (parried) and plain missing and then getting a crit streak that doesn't benefit you because two crits landed in the same time frame between a boss's swing timer.

I prefer the consistency of always landing hits successfully over the potential to miss 4+ in a row.

A theoretical, but if you had a chance to miss 50% of your swings, and had a 50% crit rate, you'd miss 10 hits in a row, then not only would you hit the next 10, but you'd have 100% chance that the 10 you'd land would be crits. Because Maul often lands within mere moments of a swipe, mangle, or lacerate, you end up with two crits in such a short window of time that it's essentially a waste of a crit. I'd rather spread those crits out as much as I can and not have misses on the table.

That means higher up time on Infected Wounds which as far as I know works off of Spell Hit mechanics which means you want a lot of hit

While watching the television, I put two thoughts in my mind at the time of writing into one sentence without proof reading it.

*That means higher up time on Infected Wounds
*That means higher up time on Demoralizing Roar which as far as I know works off of Spell Hit mechanics which means you want a lot of hit

And for that matter better utilization of FFF's threat potential. And for clarification on the Demo Roar, the more often you can apply it without having to redo it because it missed, the more tps you can make through using your gcd for other stuff.

[getefix]

if i have 2% chance to miss, 40% chance to crit, 7% chance to be parried, then i have 51% chance to have a regular hit. This is how rolls are done on an attack. If you were to up your hit so you have 0% chance to miss, 7% chance to be parried, and still 40% chance to crit then you still only have 40% chance to crit, 7% chance to be parried, and now 53% chance for a regular hit. Gaining hit and expertise only increase your chance to land a non-critting attack.

Getting parried, dodged, or missing has nothing to do with not critting. The ONLY three stats that have anything to do with SD is Crit, AP, and Haste.

Edit: I see you're saying something about swing timer resets. Expertise is nice, but it's not a viable alternative to stamina or agility.

[Shinshiva]

yeah but his point was, if you miss: You won't proc SD. Because you didn't crit, you didn't even touch him, you missed. If you miss once, that's one less chance for a crit, that's one less chance for SD to proc.

[getefix]

yeah but his point was, if you miss: You won't proc SD. Because you didn't crit, you didn't even touch him, you missed. If you miss once, that's one less chance for a crit, that's one less chance for SD to proc.

If you miss once, twice, three times in a row, it doesn't matter. If you were hit capped then those would have been regular hits and wouldn't have procced SD anyways.

[Sunshine]

A theoretical, but if you had a chance to miss 50% of your swings, and had a 50% crit rate, you'd miss 10 hits in a row, then not only would you hit the next 10, but you'd have 100% chance that the 10 you'd land would be crits. Because Maul often lands within mere moments of a swipe, mangle, or lacerate, you end up with two crits in such a short window of time that it's essentially a waste of a crit. I'd rather spread those crits out as much as I can and not have misses on the table.

No, that's not the way crits (or probabilities in general) work. There's a random number generated between 1 and 100. The hit table (see below) determines what this is. RNG is RNG -- me getting a hit or parry or whatever on this attack means *nothing* as to what happens on the next attack. Think of flipping a coin -- even if i get 100 heads in a row, I still have 50% chance for heads and 50% chance for tails on the next flip.

yeah but his point was, if you miss: You won't proc SD. Because you didn't crit, you didn't even touch him, you missed. If you miss once, that's one less chance for a crit, that's one less chance for SD to proc.

Hit table is single roll for bears, until proven otherwise.

8% miss
6.5% dodge
15% parry
X% crit
(100-X-29.5)% hit

If you have > 70.5% crit with zero hit and zero expertise (or more generally, more than [100-miss%-dodge%-parry%] crit), you're losing crits with your lack of hit/expertise. Otherwise, no.

[Torzak]

With 40% crit chance, 7% rate of being parried
If I have 2% chance to miss = 51% chance to have a regular hit.
If I have 0% chance to miss = 53% chance to have a regular hit.

So going in reverse, if I have an 8% chance to miss, then I have 45% chance of a regular hit. Pushing normal hits off the table.

No, that's not the way crits (or probabilities in general) work. There's a random number generated between 1 and 100. The hit table (see below) determines what this is. RNG is RNG -- me getting a hit or parry or whatever on this attack means *nothing* as to what happens on the next attack. Think of flipping a coin -- even if i get 100 heads in a row, I still have 50% chance for heads and 50% chance for tails on the next flip.

I understand the whole heads/tails deal with a coin. But the coin toss deal is irrelevant to WoW's crit chance.

Heads (50% chance) = Hit
Tails (50% chance) = Miss

If it's a Hit then your crit chance can apply. If it's a miss, then it can't. And this happens to not be how crit works (as you can note in the first quote) so you can't bring up coin toss. In this example, if you had a 50% chance to Hit and a 50% chance to miss, then only 50% of your swings could have a chance to hit making your crit rate half of what it really would be in-game. With the 40% crit rate example from the first quote, 40% of your swings will be a crit and this 40% can't be touched by the miss/parried RNG. Not 40% of your landed hits.

If you could theoretically have a 50% chance to crit and have a 50% chance to miss, then in WoW's system every single landed hit would be a crit because all the normal hits would have been pushed off the table.

This would cause a high potential for long streaks of misses or a long streak of hits that land as a crit.

Long streaks of misses can't proc SD. The consistency that 100% hit chance (expertise+hit capped) offers makes every single hit have the 40% chance to crit which helps to spread your crits out and helps to prevent SD down time because of 2 to 4 second miss streaks.

I've not seen any evidence that shows that if you could go back in time and roll on what landed as a miss all over again, that it would be impossible for that hit to land as a crit. If that were the case, there'd have to be some sort of a number list pre-setup for each individual to pull numbers from that gets cycled through.

This a 10 swing sample:

80% Chance To Hit (Full 8% lack of hit and 12% lack in expertise)
40% Chance To Crit

Hit (Crit)
Miss/Parried
Hit (Crit)
Hit
Hit
Hit (Crit)
Hit
Hit (Crit)
Hit
Miss/Parried

Then if you could go back in time and roll the numbers again, but with no chance to be dodged/parried or to miss because you've capped your hit and expertise, how do you know that the crit's placements would be the same?

80% Chance To Hit (Full 8% lack of hit and 12% lack in expertise)
40% Chance To Crit

Hit (Crit)
Hit
Hit (Crit)
Hit
Hit
Hit (Crit)
Hit
Hit (Crit)
Hit
Hit

If Random is Random and RNG is RNG, then those crits' placement should be free to move around which means +hit would act as a consistency stat for SD. Not a chance to proc stat. It simply spreads the crits out so you don't end up with miss streaks or crit streaks.

A crit streak would lead to Maul + Mangle Critting within the same .2 seconds making one of the crits worthless because both SD procs happened between the boss's swing timer. This happens more often the less Hit you have. Hit simply would help to spread the crits apart.

Now, if there is some analysis or math to suggest that Hit can not act as a Consistency stat for SD, I'd love to see it. I think people are tunneling in and thinking I'm trying to say that Hit is a proc stat, and I'm not.

[Sunshine]

With the 40% crit rate example from the first quote, 40% of your swings will be a crit and this 40% can't be touched by the miss/parried RNG. Not 40% of your landed hits.

The consistency that 100% hit chance (expertise+hit capped) offers makes every single hit have the 40% chance to crit which helps to spread your crits out and helps to prevent SD down time because of 2 to 4 second miss streaks.

These are contradictory. In a single roll system, crit is not affected by miss or expertise (except in extreme examples, where your crit starts to be pushed off the table, such as 90% crit and 15% miss/parry/dodge), as you said in the first quote. But how can you take that and say that you have to hit in order to crit (which is only true in a 2-roll system)?

Expertise and hit do not affect your ability to crit, they only affect the number of regular (non-crit) hits, as these are the first thing to be pushed off the table. 40% crit is 40% crit, regardless of how much miss / dodge / parry you have.

My coin toss example was over-simplified -- think of a 100-sided die (in reality, there are decimals and so on; this is still a simplified example). For every attack, roll a number. Look up the corresponding spot on the attack table to determine whether the attack is a hit, crit, miss, etc.

[Selverein]

Now, if there is some analysis or math to suggest that Hit can not act as a Consistency stat for SD, I'd love to see it. I think people are tunneling in and thinking I'm trying to say that Hit is a proc stat, and I'm not.

I can't help but see contradiction here. If it's a "consistency" stat for SD, and SD is purely a 100% on-crit proc, then necessarily Hit would help to Crit.

There has been analysis and that is what lead to determine that melee works on a single-roll attack table. An attack does not need to land (hit) a target before it can be determined to be a crit. Think of it as D&D. If you roll a 20 you don't even bother checking if it hits, it's an automatic crit and will always hit.

Have a set amount of crit, no hit and no expertise, and go auto-attack a dummy for an hour. Check Recount and the amount of crit will be close to what you'd see on your character sheet. Now cap hit and expertise without changing the crit chance and do the same. The amount of crits on Recount will be the same regardless of being hit/exp-capped. Since SD procs exclusively from crits, Hit cannot be a consistency or helpful stat for the purpose of SD.

[Torzak]

With the 40% crit rate example from the first quote, 40% of your swings will be a crit and this 40% can't be touched by the miss/parried RNG. Not 40% of your landed hits.

The consistency that 100% hit chance (expertise+hit capped) offers makes every single hit have the 40% chance to crit which helps to spread your crits out and helps to prevent SD down time because of 2 to 4 second miss streaks.

These are contradictory

No. They aren't.

The first portion you quoted from me is based on the assumption of 7% parry and either 0% or 2% chance to miss as noted where I say "from the first quote". This means you can't apply a 40% chance to crit to just your landed hits because that's not how the game works. The 40% applies to all swings.

In the second portion you quoted, there's the assumption of 100% landed hits because of both capped expertise and hit which means the 40% crit is applied to all landed hits, it just happens that 100% of the swings land so it's the same as saying 40% of the swings.

But how can you take that and say that you have to hit in order to crit (which is only true in a 2-roll system)?

I didn't say this.

Expertise and hit do not affect your ability to crit

I didn't say this either. I've not said that having a shortcoming in hit and/or expertise will make your crit rate go down. I've merely said that having Hit was a consistency stat, helping to spread your crits out.

The simplest way to exemplify it is with an extreme, but I'll keep it realistic.

With 40% crit chance:

If I have 0% chance to miss & 0% chance to be parried, then I have a 60% chance to have a regular hit & 40% chance to crit

If I have 8% chance to miss & 14% chance to be parried, then I have a 38% chance to have a regular hit & 40% chance to crit.

In the second case, when you do land a hit, it's a higher percentage to land as a crit. Again, to clarify, I am saying that in the second case, of the successfully landed hits, you'll have a higher % chance to land them as a crit. Because 22% is a fairly large number, miss streaks as high as 7 or 8 would probably happen. They wouldn't happen all the time, and that may even be the peak of missed hits expected. It'd be semi-realistic for it to happen even if not common. 7 or 8 misses in a row is a window of 5'ish seconds of guaranteed no SD proc. Then, when you do successfully make 'contact' with the opponent, 40 out of 78 hits will be crit, or 51% of the landed hits will be crit.

The higher % chance of missing and being parried increases the chance of two extremes happening: 1) Higher miss streak in which case you get no SD over that window of time and 2) Higher crit streak because you have a higher percent chance to crit when you do connect.

So by having Hit and Expertise, you remove the miss streaks, and have a more even spread of crits through out all your attacks.

So instead of Missing 22, Critting 40, and Hitting 38 (8% missed and 14% parried)
*Higher chance of missing multiple hits in a row
*51% chance to crit when you do connect a hit

you'd have Missing 0, Critting 40, and Hitting 60 (0% missed and 0% parried)
*No chance of miss streaks
*40% chance to crit when you do connect a hit

So again, consistency in crit spread because you can't have miss streaks and crit streaks.

Yes, in both cases you will land 40crits in 100 swings, but in one case you leave yourself more vulnerable to miss streaks where no SD can proc and crit streaks where 2 SD procs occur in .2 seconds' time.

The more extreme example I used in previous post is what I was hoping would drive the concept, that being the 50% miss with a 50% crit rate. Though not technically possible in WoW, if it were, every single landed hit would be a crit. And you'd have huge miss streaks and huge crit streaks.

The only way what I'm saying could not be true, is if every player had a matrix or a list of 10,000+ variables calculated every time they swapped a piece of gear.

A small version of what that might look like:
1 Crit
2 Crit
3 Crit
4 Crit
5 Hit
6 Hit
7 Hit
8 Parry
9 Miss
10 Miss

Then a dice roll of 1 through 10 every single swing timer. In this way, adding hit or expertise would literally only add a non-crit hit in place of where a miss would have been. To accomplish this, every single player would need their own matrix or list of 10,000+ choices with a random number being pulled 1 through 10,000 and then using that number on the list. It'd have to be 10k+ numbers to account for decimal places worth in Hit and Expertise Ratings.

Think of it as D&D. If you roll a 20 you don't even bother checking if it hits, it's an automatic crit and will always hit.

Except in WoW we have to the one hundredth's place in percent chance to be parried, to be dodged, and to miss. Which means you'd have to roll a number much higher than 20 to figure that out for one, and for two everyone's roll of the dice would be different and require their own tailor built dice with which to roll.

Can you explain to me how that would work?

[Selverein]

The more extreme example I used in previous post is what I was hoping would drive the concept, that being the 50% miss with a 50% crit rate. Though not technically possible in WoW, if it were, every single landed hit would be a crit. And you'd have huge miss streaks and huge crit streaks.

Even so, SD would be unaffected. Your threat would be inconsistent, but SD would proc the same amount of times.


On second thought, I can see one place where Hit will "matter" for proc'ing SD. Lacerate. Once applied, either via Hit or Crit, it can crit on a tick. Slightly higher chance to be applied (with more Hit) will make it easier to keep your stack up and refresh it. It's a very small factor, just thought I'd mention it for kicks.

Except in WoW we have to the one hundredth's place in percent chance to be parried, to be dodged, and to miss. Which means you'd have to roll a number much higher than 20 to figure that out for one, and for two everyone's roll of the dice would be different and require their own tailor built dice with which to roll.

It was an example, simply to illustrate. Whatever number range corresponds to your crit chance, if the game's random roll lands in that range, it's a crit, no question asked if it hits, it just does.

[Sunshine]

The more extreme example I used in previous post is what I was hoping would drive the concept, that being the 50% miss with a 50% crit rate. Though not technically possible in WoW, if it were, every single landed hit would be a crit. And you'd have huge miss streaks and huge crit streaks.

Given 50% miss and 50% crit, you'd have exactly the same chance of huge miss streaks and huge crit streaks as head and tails streaks flipping a coin.

Given 25% miss, 25% hit, and 50% crit, you have *exactly the same* chance as in the previous example to crit on each attack, and your streaks with and without a crit are again exactly the same chance as having heads and tails streaks with a coin.

There's no "spacing" issue -- having more hit doesn't space crits out any more than you can space out heads or tails flips on a coin. Every attack is its own roll/flip/etc, with no dependence on previous attacks.

The only way what I'm saying could not be true, is if every player had a matrix or a list of 10,000+ variables calculated every time they swapped a piece of gear.

...

Then a dice roll of 1 through 10 every single swing timer. In this way, adding hit or expertise would literally only add a non-crit hit in place of where a miss would have been. To accomplish this, every single player would need their own matrix or list of 10,000+ choices with a random number being pulled 1 through 10,000 and then using that number on the list. It'd have to be 10k+ numbers to account for decimal places worth in Hit and Expertise Ratings.

Except in WoW we have to the one hundredth's place in percent chance to be parried, to be dodged, and to miss. Which means you'd have to roll a number much higher than 20 to figure that out for one, and for two everyone's roll of the dice would be different and require their own tailor built dice with which to roll.

Can you explain to me how that would work?

Computers can generate pseudorandom numbers on demand. The game can ask for a random number between 1 and 100, to as many decimal places as they desire.

Say on one attack, the pseudorandom number generator gives 37.482... The game can then look to see where that falls given your current stats. With the random number as x:

x < miss -- miss
miss < x < miss+dodge -- dodge
m+d < x < m+d+parry -- parry
m+d+p < x < m+d+p+crit -- crit
m+d+p+c < x -- hit

[Torzak]

Whatever number range corresponds to your crit chance, if the game's random roll lands in that range, it's a crit, no question asked if it hits, it just does.

How do you program that? I'm occasionally way too technical of a person. I see something to "Illustrate" and it's too simple of an explanation to match up with how it actually works that it could be read one way or another.

My coin toss example was over-simplified -- think of a 100-sided die (in reality, there are decimals and so on; this is still a simplified example). For every attack, roll a number. Look up the corresponding spot on the attack table to determine whether the attack is a hit, crit, miss, etc

I sure hope blizzard isn't literally keeping 10,000 long lists, or tables, for every one. This sort of explanation pushes the idea way out of there for me. It doesn't even make sense to do this. I'm not saying this is a bad explanation of it. I'm saying it's a bad explanation of it for me.

After some careful thought, this is what I came up with if it were going to work that way with the least resources being used.

43.37% Chance_to_Crit
3.34% Chance_to_Miss
2% Chance_to_be_Parried

Random 1 to 10,000 Saved to VariableA

If VariableA < (Chance_to_Critx100 4,337) Then Crit_Function (do the math/random based on this being a crit)
Else If VariableA < (10,000 - ((Chance_to_Missx100 334) + (Chance_to_be_Parriedx100 200))) Then Hit_Function (do the math/random on this being a normal hit)
Else If VariableA < (10,000 - (Chance_to_be_Parriedx100 334)) Then Miss_Function (Display Miss in combat log)
Else Parry_Function (Display Parry in combat log)

Obviously this would have to be reworked a bit to fit in being dodged if your expertise was that low, but it covers the idea of being short on some Hit and some Expertise while I think satisfying the "table" or whatever else was trying to be explained.

I should go to bed... hopefully I didn't mess up any 'greater than' or 'less than' signs or something.

Edit:

x < miss -- miss
miss < x < miss+dodge -- dodge
m+d < x < m+d+parry -- parry
m+d+p < x < m+d+p+crit -- crit
m+d+p+c < x -- hit

I guess this, and some of the text that proceeded it would work too. Just you, Sunshine, got "table" stuck in my head and I got to thinking how you'd need a 10,000 long list to do a literal table/list that when I wrote mine up while you were writing I ended up incorporating my little "x100"s to come up with a 10,000 list. Anyway, it took me way too long to come up with what I did. Night.

[Sunshine]

I guess this, and some of the text that proceeded it would work too. Just you, Sunshine, got "table" stuck in my head and I got to thinking how you'd need a 10,000 long list to do a literal table/list that when I wrote mine up while you were writing I ended up incorporating my little "x100"s to come up with a 10,000 list. Anyway, it took me way too long to come up with what I did. Night.

Ah, I'm sorry, I see the confusion. Mixing technical and nontechnical vocabulary is a bad idea, but I'm glad we figured each other out in the end. Have a good night