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  1. #1

    [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    I've been playing a Priest on the PTR (Disc, mostly for PvP). It's pretty simple: there's no reason to pick Spirit over MP5. Spirit has become the poor cousin of mana regen, and yet it's still all over my gear. Feels like an utter waste. The alternative is to pick the +crit set, but that's not exactly the most useful stat for Disc either.

    Now, I'm not suggesting they start adding +MP5 cloth sets for all classes, that'd be silly. I just wish it did more for Disc Priests. I don't like being balanced by making my gear inefficient.

  2. #2

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    Intellect and Spirit go hand in hand. The more you have of one, the more the other will help. 1200 Spirit and only 300 INT will give you much less MP/5 than 600 INT/600 Spirit. Don't discount one because it's looking less attractive.

    Also:

    If you look at the classes that are given the most MP/5, they're the ones with the absolute lowest mana return.

    Shadowfiend and Innervate replenish much more mana, on top of your 50% passive 'spirit-based mana regen while casting' talents.

    Shamans hate Mana Tide. Divine Plea cuts healing in half.

    Those two classes have been forced into gimmicks like stacking INT in every socket on every piece of gear, so that Replenishment can hope to regen enough mana that they make it through the encounter.

    Replenishment is getting nerfed, MP/5 is getting buffed.

    Instead of complaining that your gear is now less than optimal, you should enjoy the fact that you havn't been going OOM 5 minutes into every encounter for two major content patches.

    Go tell the Shaman boards that you want their MP/5 regen mechanics. They'll gladly give it away if it means they get some replacement that makes them last longer.

  3. #3

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    How can you say crit isn't an important stat as disc? I see the disc priest's argument, spirit sucks, why-tf is it on my tier.

    The thing about Disc is Rapture, you need a lot of mana to get the most out of the ability, and like the previous poster said; you have a lot of base abilities to have insane mana regen compared to other classes.

  4. #4

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    I have a Holy Paladin and Resto Shaman as well, and to be honest I prefer their methods of mana regen to that of the Priest (especially that of the Paladin). Perhaps I should emphasize that I'm looking at this from a PvP perspective though, it might be different in serious raiding (which I don't do with my healers).

    I'm pretty new to the Priest class, so I probably get a lot of stuff wrong, but at the moment I hate their mana-inefficiency the most. Shadowfiend is a joke, it's on a 5 minute cooldown. It adds a lot of damage, sure, but I want mana! I miss Divine Plea, Seal of Wisdom, Water Shield...stuff on short cooldowns that give me mana back. I hate having to drink all the time on my Priest >

    Ahem, sorry, short rant

    To get back on topic a bit: I understand Spirit was never that useful a stat for Disc Priests. It's not something you gem for even in this patch. However, now with the big buff to MP5 it stings all the more. It feels wrong to be 'nerfed' only because the right gear simply is not available for your spec, especially since Meditation makes it appear as though Spirit is meant to be your regen stat but just does a worse job than straight-up MP5 in every way.

  5. #5

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    Disc raiding before 3.2: mp5 is about as good as spirit (at high int levels).
    Disc raiding after 3.2: mp5 is clearly better than spirit (you'd need about 2000 int).

    Disc PvP before 3.2: mp5 is better than spirit (int isn't high enough in PvP gear/buffs).
    Disc PvP after 3.2: mp5 is much better than spirit.

    Spirit is sort of being phased out. I don't know what the resto druid community has to say, but I'd be surprised if the situation there isn't about as bad as for disc. Holy priests are the only ones who might still want the stat, otherwise it's being reduced to a gimmicky dps stat for casters and a second-rate regen stat for healers.

    There's a bunch of approximations involved, but it looks like mp5 will be at least as good as spirit for holy after 3.2 (just don't take my word for that). For disc, mp5 is clearly ahead.

    Of course, even if spirit isn't the best, it's still what's on our gear.

  6. #6

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    spirit could add haste to disc priests.. through some talent ofc.

    how about that suggestion? haste is awesome, imo
    In Memorial of the Sword Guy

  7. #7

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    You realise that itemization has never, isn't currently and will never be optimized to provide the perfect gear set with only the best stats, right? I mean, you're not directly complaining about it and I understand your point, but that's sort of how the game works for classes. Some of the stats are less than optimal which allows for variety in gear.

  8. #8
    Fluffy Kitten Ultima's Avatar
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    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    Although you may not have been able to tell from his first post, he did say in his second post he was talking about PvP. (The bit where he said he had to choose between spirit and crit made it obvious he was talking about PvP gear)

    It shouldn't effect PvP too much, just that you might want to look at mp5 gear when you can.
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  9. #9

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    Instead of complaining that your gear is now less than optimal, you should enjoy the fact that you havn't been going OOM 5 minutes into every encounter for two major content patches.
    Im sorry but if you believe that crap you are either dumb or the paladins and shamans you play with are. Our shaman pretty much never goes oom, in fact he said the only reason he takes mana tide is for the dps. And as for paladins... on our 3 elder 10man freya kill the shaman and I had ~90k mana regened and the paladin was at ~125k. Pretty sure I (disc priest) got an innervate at the end as well. Now I have no idea what the 2 of them do but they are always near the #1 healer if its not one of them and they are the healers in our 10m hard mode group so obviously they aren't having mana problems because they arent using theirs.

  10. #10

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    The only time Spirit outweighs raw pure mp5 is when there is a phase transition. In that period where you are doing nothing (and of course have Kings) Spirit will grant you a nice fair chunk more than mp5, but those periods don't last long (that's why they're "transitions") and over the course of a long fight, you would probably get better returns on solid mp5.

    However. In PvP, if you can get a break, spirit will be your boon. Discipline does tend to have the lowest sustainable mana pool of all healers in that regard, but hey, what do I know?
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  11. #11

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou
    Im sorry but if you believe that crap you are either dumb or the paladins and shamans you play with are. Our shaman pretty much never goes oom, in fact he said the only reason he takes mana tide is for the dps. And as for paladins... on our 3 elder 10man freya kill the shaman and I had ~90k mana regened and the paladin was at ~125k. Pretty sure I (disc priest) got an innervate at the end as well. Now I have no idea what the 2 of them do but they are always near the #1 healer if its not one of them and they are the healers in our 10m hard mode group so obviously they aren't having mana problems because they arent using theirs.
    Then you can clearly afford to drop a healer. Seriously. If all three of your healers are ending fights with 80-100% mana and no one is dead, good job. Kick one of them to the curb, or make them DPS.
    Do you use three healers for every Hard Mode? That's your problem. That's where we differ.
    My guild, as well as many others like mine, can afford to trade out a healer for a DPS on the majority of Hard Modes. We beat enrage timers better that way.
    You've already said you can do some Hardmodes. But do you trust your healers enough to bring an extra DPS? Will they be used to the pace? Will people die? Will they mysteriously develop mana problems? Where once was surplus, will depression seep through?

    It's one thing to use anecdotal evidence to suggest something, or someone is fine. It's another to look at raw facts and information, and from that, realize that different classes use different mechanics to function for different roles. Now are these mechanics always fun? No. Are they fair? No. Are they down-right stupid sometimes? Absolutely.

    Paladin: Hey everyone, I just hit 40,000 Mana raid-buffed. Now I can afford to use Holy Light for most of the fight.
    Priest: Oh...hey there...Paladin. I'm just going to stick with my 30,000 Mana, and know that I have almost 500 more +Healing than you do. I don't have to fill all of my gem slots with Intellect, because y'see, just from the Spirit and Intellect on my gear, I can afford to cast the whole fight too. Only, my heals do much more than yours. It's great that you have Judgement of Light padding your meters though. I mean, without it, we'd realize how much better than you I am at effective healing.
    SHAMAN: HAY GUYS WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?
    Priest: Oh cra...I mean, hey Shaman. What's up? Didn't see you there, without the light show and whatnot.
    Paladin: We were just talking about how mana eff...icien...t...we are...oh, sorry.
    SHAMAN: WHAT'S THAT?
    Priest: Got to go. Arena time. *Joins 2v2 queue*
    Paladin: It's uhh...my neighbor...umm...wife...aggro. *Bubble hearths*
    SHAMAN: OKAY GUYS. BYE.
    *Druid attempts to sneak away*
    SHAMAN: HAY KITTYFACE.
    Druid: Fuck...
    SHAMAN: WHAT DOES IFF-ISHINT MEAN?
    Druid: Umm...here's an Innervate.
    SHAMAN: HOORAY!

  12. #12

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    Only, my heals do much more than yours.
    While your little story is realyl funny and mostly accurate, this part up here really isnt :P Priests can AoE heal, thats why they have more effective healing, but just casting heal after heal on a target, the paladin will far outclass the priest. Pallies dont get any spellpower because they already heal for like 25k crits, they dont need much more!
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  13. #13

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    Abolishment ;D I loved your dialog there. It reminds me of our Ulduar raids. Shaman just yelling in vent for Innervate or Mana Tide ;D

  14. #14

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impurath
    Abolishment ;D I loved your dialog there. It reminds me of our Ulduar raids. Shaman just yelling in vent for Innervate or Mana Tide ;D
    That doesnt sound like our raids :P
    When everyone else is oom our resto shaman is still healing with 50% mana left and no, he hasnt used mana tide

  15. #15
    Fluffy Kitten llDemonll's Avatar
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    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou
    Im sorry but if you believe that crap you are either dumb or the paladins and shamans you play with are. Our shaman pretty much never goes oom, in fact he said the only reason he takes mana tide is for the dps. And as for paladins... on our 3 elder 10man freya kill the shaman and I had ~90k mana regened and the paladin was at ~125k. Pretty sure I (disc priest) got an innervate at the end as well. Now I have no idea what the 2 of them do but they are always near the #1 healer if its not one of them and they are the healers in our 10m hard mode group so obviously they aren't having mana problems because they arent using theirs.
    9k* and 12.5k* mana regen maybe, gl ever getting close to even a full mana pool (~25k) in the course of a fight. unless u wiped a ton through the night and that was all the regen for the night added up.

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  16. #16

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    @ Abolishment
    Why is it a problem to use 3 healers on some hardmode fights?
    In my guild we have 2 healers + 1 who can switch between healing and dps, cause we don't got a problem with enrage timers, which ofc you don't seem to have either.
    I would be very happy if you could tell me what's wrong with 3 healers on some hardmode fights. casue i don't see any problem at all with that.

    Anyone who have cleared Ulduar 10 hardmodes agrees that the place is a joke compared to 25m version, first time we went in to do yogg 1 guardian (1-shot), 1 of our healers died (we had 3 healers) and we laughed about it on vent and said "keep going this is shit easy", afterwards we joke about it that we can't kill him unless a healer dies :P

  17. #17

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll
    9k* and 12.5k* mana regen maybe, gl ever getting close to even a full mana pool (~25k) in the course of a fight. unless u wiped a ton through the night and that was all the regen for the night added up.
    lol @ if you think you only regen 9k / 12.5k over the course a fight.

    Even as a disc priest, on XT normal mode, (where the fight lasts around 3minutes) I regened:
    9567 -rapture
    8249 -Replenishment
    2400 -Mana restore
    20216 - Total gained

    So between a holy pally with 30k+mana (easy) +current illumination + replenishment + meta in helm + divine plea would get a shitton over the course of that fight. Probably easily more than I would.

    The only difference is, he's SPENDING alot more than I am per cast.

  18. #18

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trickie
    @ Abolishment
    Why is it a problem to use 3 healers on some hardmode fights?
    In my guild we have 2 healers + 1 who can switch between healing and dps, cause we don't got a problem with enrage timers, which ofc you don't seem to have either.
    Have to agree with you here on 10-man. If the hard-mode fight is more demanding on HPS than DPS, pop over a 3rd. Most of them can be managed fine by 2 competent healers, but Freya+3 and Algalon are probably the least forgiving of any shortage of healing (we run disc/healadin, so are perhaps a little more limited in capability than comps that have a true aoe healer - on those two fights we have the spriest or eleshammy switch, respectively).
    Bigslick (14/14H 25m) Lethal-Thunderhorn US
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  19. #19

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyJester
    \
    I'm pretty new to the Priest class, so I probably get a lot of stuff wrong, but at the moment I hate their mana-inefficiency the most. Shadowfiend is a joke, it's on a 5 minute cooldown. It adds a lot of damage, sure, but I want mana! I miss Divine Plea, Seal of Wisdom, Water Shield...stuff on short cooldowns that give me mana back. I hate having to drink all the time on my Priest >
    Not sure what you've been attempting to do in said Arenas or PvP environment, it'd also help if we knew whether you were discussing 2s, 3s or 5s. It does seem like much of your mana inefficiency comes from sloppy mana management and lack of knowledge in regards to playing your class [if I had to take a guess]. Post your spec and/or an armory link and we'll be able to gauge your plight with a bit more lucidity.

    I can honestly tell you however [having a raid-level healer of each class] that I consider Disc priests to have the best mana management [for PvE]. In PvP, it's a Druid followed by Disc and the only time a Disc priest who knows what they're doing should have mana problems is when they're dealing with focus fire and mana burn at the same time.

  20. #20

    Re: [3.2, Disc] What's the use of Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by IAreRaz
    In PvP, it's a Druid followed by Disc and the only time a Disc priest who knows what they're doing should have mana problems is when they're dealing with focus fire and mana burn at the same time.
    Prot-spec pally healer > all for mana sustainability in arena.
    Bigslick (14/14H 25m) Lethal-Thunderhorn US
    "Those who deny respect for others deserve it not for themselves."

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