Are Rets truly that bad?

[underdogba]

All of these "BUT I CANT KILL A HEALER BY MYSELF" ret idiots are amusing.

Now that's just really a snide way of completely missing the point.

The issue is not that players should expect to be able to easily kill a healer in a pvp situation without assistance, the point is that this kind of frames the scope of the burst problem. (Ironically hunters actually do better at that, but they're underrepresented at higher brackets for other reasons).

If somehow we were dealing with a scenario where rets were the only class/spec that could actually do that, then I would be very convinced that the burst situation is severe. But as it stands right now from practical experience, a ret can only really 3-shot a low resilience target that is not receiving healing. If the target can survive the initial burst (which is basically any class with any reasonable resilience), all the ret can do is autoattack until the CD's come back up. That seems like a fair tradeoff in a pvp game that's designed around the concept that classes/specs should feel unique.

On a side note, I think it's perfectly logical for Ret to have a very simple dps "rotation" (it's not really a rotation because in sustained dps situations you can't avoid CD collision, you can only mimimize it, unlike prot which is a pure metronome). If Ret had more buttons, it would become prohibitively difficult to perform any utility roles. Incidentally, enhancement shamans are almost exactly the same way, except no one calls them "retards" because they are terrible in pvp.

[Shimata]

Rets have the ability to unleash full hell in a matter of a few global cd's. Combine that with temporary immunity to damage, ability to heal, plate, longest stun in the game, ALOT of damaging buttons to press, stun removal, and you have a recepie for disaster.

They do however have alot of other issues as a class, but the retarded burst is just something that should've been dealt with long ago and replaced with some kind of distance closer/interrupt.

Edit: It does get better with resilience, but a class should not rely on that kind of sick burst. *coughdestrolockscough*

There you go.
/thread

[Deleted]

Recently, i have been doing a bit of arena's in the 3's bracket, and i haven't noticed any reason for people to whine about ret paladins, I feel that they need their bubble to survive, much like rogues have evasion, vanish, etc and other classes have theirs. Does it suck to have one third of the enemy team become immune? somewhat, but there are still two other guys there. So what is the big issue with them really? Because i know its not me being an amazing PvP rogue that makes them not seem too tough. :P

quote by: random rogue at 1470 teamrating and teamstats of win71 - 79lose-
dude... retlolsarent that low in the bracket, everyone is rolling above 1900+

[Paladin885]

Rets have the ability to unleash full hell in a matter of a few global cd's. Combine that with temporary immunity to damage, ability to heal, plate, longest stun in the game, ALOT of damaging buttons to press, stun removal, and you have a recepie for disaster.

They do however have alot of other issues as a class, but the retarded burst is just something that should've been dealt with long ago and replaced with some kind of distance closer/interrupt.

Edit: It does get better with resilience, but a class should not rely on that kind of sick burst. *coughdestrolockscough*

There you go.
/thread

arms warriors are the same way. With all their bleeding effects buffing their dmg all an arms warrior needs to do (with proper gear) is hit bladestorm and you can instantly knock someone dead or down to 20% ready for an exicute finish.

But every class and spec has its retarded burst currently. You got destro locks and mages nuking, you got hunters 5-shotting 800+ resil players, rogues are still going strong...its everywhere.

Burst is out of control, plain and simple.

But i will say this, dueling over to ret for pvp is alot easier than it was as a warrior. As ret, i only need to focus on 5-6 spells/attacks, whereas on my warrior it was closer to 10.

[Garrim]

Wow! what arena is that?? oh wait.

And i like how he pops wings! that means he can still bubble shortly afterwards! no.... that's not right...

Look at the PvP gear! he must have a ton of resilience! crap, i was wrong for a third time.

It's established! That video proved nothing. +1 to your post count however. gratz!

He had a Furious Mace....aparently he can get high in rating....

[Whitcher]

Well, what makes people QQ about you guys? Your burst? with resilience i don't die anymore. And you aren't going to pop wings since that negates bubble, so i see no real reason to whine about ret burst, if you are prepared. But i guess no one listened to Illidan before stepping into the nagrand arena.

There's your answer. People who don't have PvP gear who go do PvP get their asses handed to them by burst classes. Ret pallys are the main culprit in this situation, partially because ret burst used to be so powerful, and also because when someone else (let's say a mage or hunter) does it you don't see them. When a ret pally bursts you down it's face to face.

I would also go so far as to say that WotLK release opened the door for real ret damage, instead of the weak ass wannabe dps they were before. Things changed overnight and people don't like that.

[Beaavis]

On a side note, I think it's perfectly logical for Ret to have a very simple dps "rotation" (it's not really a rotation because in sustained dps situations you can't avoid CD collision, you can only mimimize it, unlike prot which is a pure metronome). If Ret had more buttons, it would become prohibitively difficult to perform any utility roles. Incidentally, enhancement shamans are almost exactly the same way, except no one calls them "retards" because they are terrible in pvp.


This is really your biggest problem, and you shouldn't be condoning simplicity. Shamans at least use totems, time their shocks, etc. which is a lot more than i can say for putting on HoF, and 3 button wacking at someone. Blizzard is working on your class from what i'm reading, but simplicity is why you're singled out more than any class in the game for being so faceroll in play, and constantly QQ'd about.

Anyone that plays more than 2 classes, with one being a Ret, always admits to how faceroll the Ret is in comparison because its so obvious. No class can frontload damage regularly based on random luck, they have to build points of some sort or use cast times to get those 3K+ hits, then the random luck factor comes into play once they unleash those points into whatever ability or get the cast off of whether it crits or not. With Ret you cut out of whole first part of that equation that is the norm for every class.

Its also a lie that Rets can only burst down low resilience targets in 3 globals. I used to play with close to 900 resilience and would still get burst down by Rets in 3 globals. I play with about 600~ now, and its the same. Geared Rets just touch me and they will get through my glyphed icebarrier and take me down to 30% within a global or two. No class can do that with as much regularity as Rets, nor is any class as difficult to manage completely relying on dispel to counter them if i don't have a healer holding my hand as Rets.

Anyways you shouldn't justify simplicity then expect to be powerful. Thats called faceroll. Argue for complexity, then make a argument of how difficult whatever that complexity is to justify the power you can throw at someone. I'm constantly amazed at how reluctant most Rets are to anything that changes up their current game play, and i guess what amazes me most is they pretend Freedom makes or breaks them when they have cleanse. God forbid you have to dispel like every other class does to break snares, just be happy you have the ability to do it unlike any other melee class.

[Lark]

Its also a lie that Rets can only burst down low resilience targets in 3 globals. I used to play with close to 900 resilience and would still get burst down by Rets in 3 globals. I play with about 600~ now, and its the same. Geared Rets just touch me and they will get through my glyphed icebarrier and take me down to 30% within a global or two. No class can do that with as much regularity as Rets, nor is any class as difficult to manage completely relying on dispel to counter them if i don't have a healer holding my hand as Rets.

A) What a joker you are. Oh, I used to have tons of resilience but ret paladins still did damage to me 1v1. Man care. Which melee class can't put a wrecking on a mage stupid enough to let them stay on them? I'll give you a hint: None. The argument that they can stay on you is reliant on the fact that ret self dispels. That has nothing to do with damage being absurdly different than any other class. You probably whine about CoS and hamstring to your friends too. Woo.

B) amusingly enough, your own examples point out how either dishonest you're being, or how terrible you are. A ret paladin who uses an extremely limited number of buttons won't beat a decent frost mage, but he will if he uses his full set of abilities. Which we all like to forget about because it is easier to complain about a class by simplifying the problem of dealing with that class down to 'they do too much damage omg!!!'

C) I'd love to hear some explanation as to how other classes have to "set up" their damage. REALLY.

[Varius]

Putting aside the dps problem for a second the big problem with our cooldowns at the moment is they all lock each other out. If you dont explode that healer or his dps friend you have bubble for 12 seconds for yourself and bop for 10 seconds for your friend, after that you have a 6k mana pool in which to throw out 2-3 big heals or try to kill their healer, if you cant make that happen you are dead.


The big problem is the fact that forbearance and the bubble/wings 30 sec lockout makes it so that you cant use your cooldowns in an arena match against a team with any experience. I really do hope blizzard realizes after removing our burst we are going to be needing alot more defensive cooldowns or a greater healing ability to keep alive long enough to ramp up our dps against teams with enough healing or resil to survive the first 30 seconds of combat.

And yes while i do have a pally ive played other classes, and it fucking sucks running into that ret pally on your undergeared character every couple minutes when he has all his cooldowns up and just completely screws you. But on the flip side it blows being that pally thats getting ganked for four and a half minutes between bubbles, or having to sit and watch that healer finally get a cast off because you've just blown repent,hoj, and arcane torrent(god it must really suck for alliance pallies) and hes still not oom or dead.

[lusisia]

Rets have the ability to unleash full hell in a matter of a few global cd's. Combine that with temporary immunity to damage, ability to heal, plate, longest stun in the game, ALOT of damaging buttons to press, stun removal, and you have a recepie for disaster.

They do however have alot of other issues as a class, but the retarded burst is just something that should've been dealt with long ago and replaced with some kind of distance closer/interrupt.

Edit: It does get better with resilience, but a class should not rely on that kind of sick burst. *coughdestrolockscough*

There you go.
/thread

Take the bubble damnit. Please. That's the thing most people complain about. Just take it. The rest of your arguments are pointless.
- We aren't the only plate wearing class
- We aren't the only class with the ability to heal ourselves in plate or out (hello Death Knights, hello prot warriors). Guess what? Our instant-heal is getting nerf'd too.
- We aren't the only class with the ability to remove stuns (hello blink? hello druids? hello rogues?)
- Learn to trinket out of the hammer. If you get hit with a repentance, IT'S GOING TO BREAK WHEN THEY HIT YOU. GET THE HELL AWAY.

Yes, rets have burst damage. No one is arguing that. However that burst damage is when EVERYTHING is off-cooldown and lucky procs on trinkets. Every other time you're spent whittling people down until everything comes off cooldown again.

Frankly I'm tired of people bitching about retribution when they're too stupid to get the fuck away from them. If you create a gap, you win.

[Tigercat]

Take the bubble damnit. Please. That's the thing most people complain about. Just take it. The rest of your arguments are pointless.
- We aren't the only plate wearing class
- We aren't the only class with the ability to heal ourselves in plate or out (hello Death Knights, hello prot warriors). Guess what? Our instant-heal is getting nerf'd too.
- We aren't the only class with the ability to remove stuns (hello blink? hello druids? hello rogues?)
- Learn to trinket out of the hammer. If you get hit with a repentance, IT'S GOING TO BREAK WHEN THEY HIT YOU. GET THE HELL AWAY.

Yes, rets have burst damage. No one is arguing that. However that burst damage is when EVERYTHING is off-cooldown and lucky procs on trinkets. Every other time you're spent whittling people down until everything comes off cooldown again.

Frankly I'm tired of people bitching about retribution when they're too stupid to get the fuck away from them. If you create a gap, you win.

If a warrior heals as well as you in a fight, you're doing it wrong.

That said, yes, paladins are not the only class to have some of the various tools you mentioned. They are, however, the only class to have all of them.

Saying that the only way to fight a particular spec is to run the fuck away implies that you can destroy any other melee, which in itself would be overpowered if it were true. Stop with the gross generalizations.

You just told people to run away if they get hit with repentance. I lol'd.

[Beaavis]

A) What a joker you are. Oh, I used to have tons of resilience but ret paladins still did damage to me 1v1. Man care. Which melee class can't put a wrecking on a mage stupid enough to let them stay on them? I'll give you a hint: None. The argument that they can stay on you is reliant on the fact that ret self dispels. That has nothing to do with damage being absurdly different than any other class. You probably whine about CoS and hamstring to your friends too. Woo.

B) amusingly enough, your own examples point out how either dishonest you're being, or how terrible you are. A ret paladin who uses an extremely limited number of buttons won't beat a decent frost mage, but he will if he uses his full set of abilities. Which we all like to forget about because it is easier to complain about a class by simplifying the problem of dealing with that class down to 'they do too much damage omg!!!'

C) I'd love to hear some explanation as to how other classes have to "set up" their damage. REALLY.

A) You have no clue what you're talking about. You rarely if ever need to use cleanse vs a Mage unless he's successful getting HoF. Spellstealing HoF is an uphill battle with all of your junk buffs/procs. Cleanse is there for a backup. Name me one other class that doesn't have to micro manage their movement. You can't. As for your damage not being out of control, go ahead and argue with Blizzard since they stated like a week ago that they need to get your damage under control before they think about giving you an interrupt. I just will never understand how most of you can't see it.

B) Go ahead and theorycraft the fight vs a Mage. I'll do it for you where you're basically putting on freedom, getting him with a repentance, he may or may not have trinket/iceblock up to get out of it, but eventually you will catch him due to run speed and cc's(rep/hoj) unless he manages to spellsteal freedom, then he'll likely have to cast something to snare you, or shatter combo before you can cleanse. But honestly there isn't more complexity than this, and i'd love to hear a straight forward honest answer from you where this supposed complexity in your play is ??? ???

C) Rogues = combo pts. Warriors = rage. DKs = runes. Casters = cast times. 2 + 2 = 4.

[lusisia]

If a warrior heals as well as you in a fight, you're doing it wrong.

That said, yes, paladins are not the only class to have some of the various tools you mentioned. They are, however, the only class to have all of them.

Saying that the only way to fight a particular spec is to run the fuck away implies that you can destroy any other melee, which in itself would be overpowered if it were true. Stop with the gross generalizations.

You just told people to run away if they get hit with repentance. I lol'd.

And you didn't read what I said. Repentence BREAKS ON DAMAGE. Countless numbers of times when I had no cooldowns up, I threw a repentance and all I had left was a single attack. Once that attack hit, the damage broke and the mage blinked, the rogue sprinted or vanished, the druid dashed, the warrior intervened, the hunter disengaged.

[Beaavis]

Frankly I'm tired of people bitching about retribution when they're too stupid to get the fuck away from them. If you create a gap, you win.


I laugh every time i read this, or the QQ about how Rets cry about not having a gap closer.

I hope most of you know you're the least kitable class in this game. Yes i can kite every class much easier than i can a Ret, and its just a matter of time before i blow my CD's, and don't have a counter for Repentance/HoJ.

Only in a duel can i reset the fight through sheeps indefinitely while safely spamming spellsteal on you to keep you in place, but i can do that to pretty much every class but Druids. Duels are nothing like real PvP tho because you never have that much time or only 1 player to focus on, let alone 1 Ret.

[Tigercat]

I read exactly what you said, lusisia. I'm thinking maybe you did not, just opting to faceroll the post button instead of previewing it first. No matter.

Telling people not to trinket repentance is worthless. The people that matter are already smart enough to know this, and the ones that don't aren't going to catch on no matter how many times you tell them.

I would like to see what you have to say about my other points, though. One particular note would be that you failed to mention your ability to remove, and make yourself immune to, snares.

[lusisia]

I read exactly what you said, lusisia. I'm thinking maybe you did not, just opting to faceroll the post button instead of previewing it first. No matter.

Telling people not to trinket repentance is worthless. The people that matter are already smart enough to know this, and the ones that don't aren't going to catch on no matter how many times you tell them.

I would like to see what you have to say about my other points, though. One particular note would be that you failed to mention your ability to remove, and make yourself immune to, snares.

Not all snares. Divine Favor (which is what you're talking about) ONLY removes stun effects. Yes, I can waste mana and cooldown trying to cleanse through the various dots just to get to the thing that has me locked in place. Meanwhile rogues are tearing me up when my trinket is on cooldown because I stay locked down indefinitely. Mages who actually know how to play the class pretty much always beat me (at least frost ones). Yes, Hand of Freedom grants immunity for 6 seconds but it also has a 25 second cooldown.

[Plirarlapar]

I hope most of you know you're the least kitable class in this game.

They removed druids? ???

[Tripp]

Yeah because all the people saying that Rets are too good in PvP are just delusional and making it up because they're bad. All of them.

Rets bubble has complete immunity to every single ability in the game except 2. They hit harder than probably any class, wear the best armor, are un-snareable/un-cc'able to the kiting classes and there damage consist of hitting at most 4 buttons in pretty much any order. Making it impossible to differentiate the good ones from the bad. That's why people are frustrated.

You people that play Rets can't possible lie to yourselves much longer. How many people have you rolled just pressing your 3 attacks, HoF and bubble if you need to and HoW to win? Give me a break. I know it's fun to constantly stomp the competition but it should be in the best interest of the game to balance the classes out.

[lusisia]

Yeah because all the people saying that Rets are too good in PvP are just delusional and making it up because they're bad. All of them.

Rets bubble has complete immunity to every single ability in the game except 2. They hit harder than probably any class, wear the best armor, are un-snareable/un-cc'able to the kiting classes and there damage consist of hitting at most 4 buttons in pretty much any order. Making it impossible to differentiate the good ones from the bad. That's why people are frustrated.

You people that play Rets can't possible lie to yourselves much longer. How many people have you rolled just pressing your 3 attacks, HoF and bubble if you need to and HoW to win? Give me a break. I know it's fun to constantly stomp the competition but it should be in the best interest of the game to balance the classes out.

Again, take the bubble away. I'm begging you. Hell, if it makes you happy give HoF an even SHORTER duration (it was already nerf'd once). Again, rets aren't the ONLY class wearing plate but yet that's always one of the arguments.

[Beaavis]

They removed druids? ???

yeah my bad. It seems i need to always make an exception about them guys.