Arcane PvE...

[Sedative]

I'm getting really bored of depending on RNG procs with TTW/Fireball which then depends on another RNG (4pc bonus). Maybe its just me but the rng gods hate me and I average around 4.5-5k dps in Ulduar 25m which usually puts me between the 3rd and 7th spot on the all-important meters...

Anyways...I used to play Arcane, but not with the level of gear I have now. I'm thinking of going back and ditching 4pc bonus. I'd use Wyrmhunter helm and Umbral Brute robes and drop dying curse for Sundial at least until I get Broodmother trinket.

I'd end up with unbuffed stats of around 2230sp, 22% crit, 600 haste.

I guess the question I have is...any of you end-game PvE Arcane mages find that you can still compete for the top 5 DPS? Or is it...play what you like but if its Arcane, dont count on competing in DPS? (even with great gear)


Edit: I know the short answer - "the math says no". But I'm more interested in actual experiences, because unlike math, where there is no grey area, things play out a little differently all the time in execution.

[merce]

As ive stated in another post:
if you can convince another mage in your raid to keep up scorch (if he isnt already) you should definately go for arcane and if you have a good druid friend in your raid who is willing to provide you with the occasional innervate then youll be just fine...

[therealpeni]

i've only read it *not* competitive anymore vs fire/ttw.

well, it's defo doable, but u won't dish out more dmg.
not even on a very mobile fight, since, arcane barrage is pisspoor dmg, and as fire, u still got living bomb ticks / ignite ticks / pyro procs and fireblast do some gd dmg to on the run.

i'm personally very fed up with arcane constantly juggling for mana.

[Baaadum]

I'm pretty sure arcane is about as RNG as Fire/ttw as far as missle procs. Anyway. Fire gets better the more you stack crit. I have a buddy who plays fire/ttw and always beats other mages who don't stack as much. He currently has about 60% crit raid buffed, 38% crit for fire self buffed (numbers are a bit arbitrary, can't remember exactly).

Once you stack enough crit you can reduce the RNG of fire.

[Sedative]

I'm pretty sure arcane is about as RNG as Fire/ttw as far as missle procs. Anyway. Fire gets better the more you stack crit. I have a buddy who plays fire/ttw and always beats other mages who don't stack as much. He currently has about 60% crit raid buffed, 38% crit for fire self buffed (numbers are a bit arbitrary, can't remember exactly).

Once you stack enough crit you can reduce the RNG of fire.

Those are my stats as well, as fire. The thing I'm gettting tired of is the "RNG dependant RNG"...you gotta crit twice in a row, then hope for another RNG (4pc Bonus) to not consume your proc.

We do have another mage that Scorch's and I'm not that worried about mana issues since we are out of our "learning" phase of Ulduar. Too bad Arcane is looking like the red-headed step child these days.

Right now I feel like 4pc is FUN when you get 5+ back to back instant Pyros but beyond that it was poorly thought out.

[rathofvol]

if you're averaging between 3rd-7th as fire, what would make you think you'd be top 5 as arcane? Its a worse dps spec, and unless you play arcane 10x better than you play fire, you'll most likely fall out of the top 10 if your dps knows what to do.

[Sedative]

I'd be content staying between 3rd and 7th

[Aristodemos87]

Having a blast at the moment in Ulduar25 as Arcane. My damage done is very comparable to that of the fire mages, with being able to beat them on a regulary basis. Give Arcane some time, really get the feeling of it and learn to love it. The fact that Fire has 1 rotation and 0 cooldowns is why I've come to hate it, and love Arcane.

EDIT: Corrected.

[Joe Christ]

Yeah, you're probably not going to beat your TtW/Fire DPS benchmarks as arcane. Try it, by all means, but brace yourself for disappointment.

[errosync]

Having a blast at the moment in Ulduar25 as Arcane. My dps is very comparable to that of the fire mages, with being able to beat them on a regulary basis. Give Arcane some time, really get the feeling of it and learn to love it. The fact that Fire has 1 rotation and 0 cooldowns is why I've come to hate it, and love Arcane.

Then they're not doing it right. Period.

On no fight that has no specified burst phase to it (Vezax excluded) will Arcane pull ahead of Fire. Dps is a terrible comparison of how well you are doing in a raid. If you have a good group/leader, then (s)he will know that 8k dps means nothing unless it equates to the most damage done. Arcane has a burn phase, Fireball does not. Passing people on a burn phase simply means you do good damage for 15-20 seconds, and then go back to sucking. This =/= good.

Try it next time; I can almost gaurentee you that Fireball will put out more damage in equal or less DPS than Arcane by a good mile.

[Kraix]

you can click my armory link for my mage, ive got 618 haste for arcane... and while i love it way more than fire it just does not compare for most fights in terms of total damage out. For Firefighter 25man, arcane is far more superior. Cooldowns are up every phase and you are pretty much onpar with the rogues until p4 depending on how shitty your frostbombs are. Hodir I can put out equal dps as both arcane and fire (have to abuse incanter's absorb if you roll arcane on that fight). Razorscale i found arcane is much better as well, but that's not a boss that really matters. For every other hardmode I've preferred fire for dps, plus you're not entirely fucked if you lose your evo to something uncontrollable as you would be with arcane.

[Aristodemos87]

Then they're not doing it right. Period.

On no fight that has no specified burst phase to it (Vezax excluded) will Arcane pull ahead of Fire. Dps is a terrible comparison of how well you are doing in a raid. If you have a good group/leader, then (s)he will know that 8k dps means nothing unless it equates to the most damage done. Arcane has a burn phase, Fireball does not. Passing people on a burn phase simply means you do good damage for 15-20 seconds, and then go back to sucking. This =/= good.

Try it next time; I can almost gaurentee you that Fireball will put out more damage in equal or less DPS than Arcane by a good mile.

Corrected my post to saying damage done instead of dps, since I well know that Arcane will almost always have higher dps when the same damage is done when compared to a Fire mage.

So let's whip out some hard modes eh?


Sart3d: Fight is over when the first 2 drakes are dead. Fire mage will be better in the overall meter yet Arcane will have contributed much more usefull damage to the fight. No one can touch an Arcane mage on damage done to Tenebron and Shadron. If you claim otherwise then you, or the Arcane mages you know aren't doing it right.

Iron council: Damage that matters is on Steelbreaker. Short burn period where Arcane will win. Overall Fire will win, but again less contribution to the most important part of the fight.

XT: As simple nuke role Fire wins, Yet Arcane is extremely suited to take care of Life Sparks.

Hodir: Due to the nature of Stormpower, Fire and especially Frostfire have a benifit here. However CD management is King on this fight and on 10m I am hovering around 10k dps. Enough to top the meters, yet this may be a l2p issue from my fellow dps'ers.

Thorim: Gauntlet suits arcane much better with low treat and better mobility. Second phase Fire wins with relatively low movement and quite a long 'burn' phase.

Freya: Frost when on Adds. Increased mobility of Arcane favors this fight. With alot of different targets, LB and Ignite will not reach their full potential.

Mimiron: Arcane for Mobility reasons, however, unlike many suggest, Fire doesn't seem too bad at all in this fight. A tie imo.

Vezax: Frost.

Yogg Saron: Ph1, A tie, with yet again LB and Ignite not being used at their full potential. Ph2, outside goes to fire, when inside an Arcane mage can be extremely usefull for burning their mana on the brain. Ph3 clearly a win for Fire due to Execute obviousness. A fight more suited for Fire imo.


I have never understood where this clear win for fire has came from. Yes overall you will see Fire produce more damage done, but the CD and rotation management to completely manage your burst from Arcane is heavily underestimated imo.

EDIT: Let it be said that by no means do I have anything against the way Fire works. The unbelieveable amount of consistent damage they can put out make them an excellent addition to any raid and working against enrage timers, not to mention the 5% crit they bring. However the utility that Arcane brings is often overlooked.