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  1. #21
    Dreadlord
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    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Danner
    To make SoL procs more notable, I can heartily recommend the addon PowerAuras.

    I set up powerauras to show a bubbling large icon of the Surge of Light talent close to the center of my screen when I have the buff. Impossible to miss.
    This. Power Auras is almost a required add-on these days. Yes, you can get similar functionality from various buff mods (like Elkano Buff Bars, which is nice and I also recommend for replacing your buff bars) or various SCT add-ons, but I find that visual cues are not only easier to notice, but much more intuitive. I have it set up to put a glowing yellow aura on top of my character (intuitively like I've got the proc), and even when I'm not looking directly at my toon, I can see that it's procced and plan how to use it. Virtually any other add-on would require reading text, which I can't necessarily do with my peripheral vison, and adds just the tiniest bit more brain lag.

    I also find it useful for watching other procs, like I have another aura set up for watching my serendipity stacks and I have it change color based on how many stacks I have so, again, I know at a glance exactly where I that stands and I can more easily plan out either how I'm going to get more stacks or how I can best use it.

    Finally, it's fantastic for watching for encounter specific mechanics. I have it warn me for stacks of Biting Cold on Hodir, or stacks of Saronite Vapor or Mark of the Faceless on Vezax, or if my Sanity gets too low on Yogg, etc.

  2. #22
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    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Izenhart
    You must put 2/2 on SoL, apart from that is really hard to see why you go oom so fast without any kind of meter posted, all I can say is that with only 20% Holy crit and only 1/2 SoL you'll be going oom way more than usual
    I'm not sure where he is at this point, but at the start of the thread he didn't even have one point in SoL, so that alone should make a difference. Also, I currently have 2/2 SoL, but I find that it's not uncommon that I can't make effective use of a SoL proc as is, and running at around 30% crit raid-buffed, even 1/2 SoL will offer a decent SoL proc chance after a PoH/CoH combo. Also, considering that he's Renew happy, he'll probably find that, except when using Flash Heal to stack Serendipity, extra SoL procs really won't save him a lot of mana.

  3. #23
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    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Sorry for the triple post, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Enduras
    Not when you dont need the mana, so its a wasted stat, and even if you do need the mana better to use SoH or SotD and gem offensive stat, added benefit of this is also that you can easly swap trinket should not need the mana on a fight, which is most, usually use SoTD and eye myself, use SoH for 10man algalon, but thats pretty much it
    I have to disagree as well. The OP DOES need mana, which means it isn't a wasted stat. Now, I'm not one of those Holy Priests who stacks Int like crazy, I think that's too far in the regen extra, but completely ignoring it is too far in the other extreme. As you say, trinkets allow for customization, but if you're at one extreme or the other, that level of customization is less available, and one or both of your trinkets stop being options and start being required. For instance, stacking nothing but throughput stats means that you pretty much always have to use at least one regen trinket. If you go for a balanced approach, I find that in fights where I need more oomph, I can use two throughput trinkets, and I still have some added regen from the socketted Int and Spirit; then in fights where I need lots of regen, I can use two regen trinkets, and I have awesome regen. Besides, really, if you need to gem all throughput and use two throughput trinkets or conversely all regen and two regen trinkets, then in most cases that means there's probably something wrong that can be addressed in other ways (eg, people standing in fires, low dps, etc.).

  4. #24

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Stack more Spirit!

  5. #25

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbu...qh0cuAo:0NdM0z


    This is the spec I run as holy. I find that Mental Agility really helps since I'm currently using renew as my filler spell (as I've understood you also do from reading this thread). The only non instant spells I use 'often' is Prayer of Healing and Binding Heal.

    Then there's always the Test of Faith question; I like the talent, and prefer to have it, but I could change it to Blessed Resilience or B&S+2/2 SoL.

    But yeah Mental Agility <-- nice stuff. Also, Spark of Hope. If you're still having mana problems then the other healers need to step it up I think.

  6. #26

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Sissadora,

    Ok. Here is my take after looking at your logs:

    (1) Seriously. If you have a dedicated Disco priest in the raid, he should be MT healing as a primary... throwing shields on the raid when the tank is topped. Having a Disco priest click 1-25 with shields may make him feel tingly on the WoL/RGA, but it isn't using him to his max potential. Conversely, having a holy priest on the MT is equally as dumb, while having a Disco priest available.

    (2) Because of this I only took into account your Auriaya parse, where you raid healed as a primary. Here is where I think you could clean up your efficiency:

    (a) Greater Heal: 21 Casts at 5,277HP average heal. This is abysmally low for this spell, and such, a lot of wasted mana. Honestly, I never cast GH. If I have a x3 stack serendipity, I hold it for when I can maximize a PoH.

    (b) Prayer of Healing: 41 "hits" for an average of 2,591. This is about half as effective as it should be. For instance, on Tues, I also had 41 "hits" of PoH, but for an average of 4,681. Learning to time your PoHs better will result in more efficient healing.

    (c) Circle of Healing: You are neglecting this spell big time. It is crazy mana efficient when used properly. During the fight, you had 47 "hits" for 1,649HP average. This week I had 138 hits for a 2267HP average. As you can see it isnt just how often you use the spell, but when you use it that makes it efficient.

    (d) ProM looks good for this fight.

    (e) Surge of Light: 14 to my 23. That is a huge difference in mana conservation, which is why I suggested 2/2 SoL. Also, you had less procs, but a higher uptime. that means either you got stuck with no one to heal longer than I, or your not getting rid of it quick enough. Downloading Power Auras will solve this.

    (f) Overhealing overall: 794,313 net healing with 46.2% going to overheal. PoH had a 62% OH rate. Greater heal had a 61% OH rate. This isn't good. Here are my stats for the same fight this week: 1,077,446 net healing with 32% going to OH (a rather high number for me actually). My most wasted spell was FH at 43.5%. However PoH was only 32.7% and CoH(6target) was at 31.9%.

    (g) Regen sources: It shows that you received an innervate, used your Shadowfiend once, amongst replenishment and other effects for a total of 50,418 mana regened (not withstanding personal Mp5). I had NOT used SF, HoH, a mana pot, or Innervate. Replenishment restored nearly 20k mana over the course of the fight, and I did have a MTT (6210). Overall, not including personal Mp5, I regened 35,513 mana from effects. This means to me that either your personal regen is too low, or your raid make up isn't good (like missing BoW or MST, kings, etc).

    (3) As a recap, I think the greatest way for you to alleviate your mana issues is to, first of all, get put on raid healing. If you get lashback from your knuckleheaded raid leader/disco priest, let me know and I'll reach through the internets and give em the pimp hand. A close second, however, is to have better spell selection. The more efficiently you select your spells, the more mana you will have throughout the fight.

  7. #27
    Scarab Lord Izenhart's Avatar
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    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuq
    I'm not sure where he is at this point, but at the start of the thread he didn't even have one point in SoL, so that alone should make a difference. Also, I currently have 2/2 SoL, but I find that it's not uncommon that I can't make effective use of a SoL proc as is, and running at around 30% crit raid-buffed, even 1/2 SoL will offer a decent SoL proc chance after a PoH/CoH combo.
    Trust me, with 41% crit raidbuffed SoL procs are something un-mana-believable

  8. #28

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    from looking at your armoy i see u use the egg+forethought. i suggest u throw in a hope spark maybe a spirit world glass or dragon figurien(spelling i know). on top of that i used to have the same problem u so, i'd oom lots and use my CDs. my solution was to play a burst healing style and leave the trigger happy to the pallyies and shaman w/ their mp5. i also gemed for crit for holy concentration (though i'm still not sure if int is better because of replenishment)

  9. #29

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by benxr2006
    from looking at your armoy i see u use the egg+forethought. i suggest u throw in a hope spark maybe a spirit world glass or dragon figurien(spelling i know). on top of that i used to have the same problem u so, i'd oom lots and use my CDs. my solution was to play a burst healing style and leave the trigger happy to the pallyies and shaman w/ their mp5. i also gemed for crit for holy concentration (though i'm still not sure if int is better because of replenishment)
    Ints better. You get crit from gear, shouldnt have to go out of your way to gear for it. Holy Conc will have high uptime with all the AoE heals holy uses often.
    Im pulling these out of my ass but the ratio is something like
    1spirit is .39mp5
    1int is .45mp5 plus crit

    Its advised to keep both up there, since replenishment becomes your lifeline, although for Holy spir gives some throughput

    Edit: Actual Info
    Quote Originally Posted by EJ
    Intellect is incredibly valuable now. It converts to crit at a rate of 150:1 (with BoK) [for holy] and at a rate of 132:1 (with BoK+MS) [for Disc]. Additionally, almost all regen mechanics (external) are now based off percentages of your final mana, so the more you have, the better they work. Replenishment @ 25k mana is worth 312 Mp5, as compared to 190 Mp5 @ 15k. Your shadowfiend now restores mana based on a percentage of your overall mana bar, and Mana Tide totem continues its practice of doing the same. In addition, Hymn of Hope scales your maximum mana pool if it procs on you, which scales all other sources of incoming mana regen.
    EJ ftw

  10. #30

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jubite
    Holy Conc will have high uptime with all the AoE heals holy uses often.
    Holy Conc only procs off of crits from BH, FH, GH, and Emp Renew. BH is situational. GH is rarely used. At least half of my FHs are from SoL, which cannot crit. Some priests are starting to use Emp Renew more and more on some fights, but the vast majority of your healing done will still be from ProM, CoH, and PoH. Unless you start healing like a Paladin, your HC uptime will usually be between 15-25%, fight depending.

  11. #31

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-
    ]
    (e) Surge of Light: 14 to my 23. That is a huge difference in mana conservation, which is why I suggested 2/2 SoL. Also, you had less procs, but a higher uptime. that means either you got stuck with no one to heal longer than I, or your not getting rid of it quick enough. Downloading Power Auras will solve this.
    From www.elitistjerks.com

    Q: 1 or 2 points in Surge of Light?
    A: Personally, I can't justify a second point in a talent that gives me a "free" Flash Heal that is incapable of proc'ing anything except Serendipity. 1 point is fine: if you cast PoH and *don't* crit at least once, something is seriously wrong; most of my casts have at least 2 crits, sometimes more (in the case of pets in the party). Same goes for CoH. 1 point seems entirely sufficient. Some people swear by 2, but you have to pay for that point, so consider carefully.

    And I completely agree, the reason the SoL procs were so low was more to do with

    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-
    ]
    (c) Circle of Healing: You are neglecting this spell big time. It is crazy mana efficient when used properly. During the fight, you had 47 "hits" for 1,649HP average. This week I had 138 hits for a 2267HP average. As you can see it isnt just how often you use the spell, but when you use it that makes it efficient.
    than it was to do with 1/2 SoL points. Obviously the more people you hit with spells the more chances you have to crit = more procs. Casting less Gheal and more CoH/PoH will result in a lot more SoL procs than using a 2nd point in a talent that isn't necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-
    ]
    (g) Regen sources: It shows that you received an innervate, used your Shadowfiend once, amongst replenishment and other effects for a total of 50,418 mana regened (not withstanding personal Mp5). I had NOT used SF, HoH, a mana pot, or Innervate. Replenishment restored nearly 20k mana over the course of the fight, and I did have a MTT (6210). Overall, not including personal Mp5, I regened 35,513 mana from effects. This means to me that either your personal regen is too low, or your raid make up isn't good (like missing BoW or MST, kings, etc).
    Your personal regen looks poor tbh... my main spec is shadow and my holy offspec gear has 20% more spirit than yours. If you are struggling for regen then your sockets really should be int and spirit gems, yet you have sp gems at times... you can only really afford for HPS throughput when you have the mana pool to sustain it. I also think adjustement of your play style will see you stretch your mana pool as well, as spiritus has pointed out you are perhaps doing the wrong role or utilising incorrect spells.

    If you adjust your play style to incorporate less Gheal (which you should do) I think you should drop the 3 points in Imp Healing, it's simply not worth 3 talent points. With these points you can pick up Inner Focus which should help your mana situation a little, and 2 left over points can be used to max SoL (although I wouldn't) or pickup a combination of Healing Focus, Desperate Prayer or Body & Soul. Personally I like Desperate Prayer and Healing Focus but there are certainly solid arguments for Body & Soul and Inner Focus.

    Lastly I think you have to invest in the CoH glyph... that will result in more SoL procs, you just need to make sure you use CoH a lot more. If you really want the wings glyph then you probably do it at the expense of Flash Heal but considering your mana issues i'd suggest you bench the GS glyph for now and bring it back (if you really want it) for Flash heal when you get a new play style mastered.

  12. #32

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Having in mind that most aspects of build/spells used were covered in this thread, i only have one question / advice:

    - since you have tailoring, why not use Darkglow Embroidery http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55769?

    I feel that this is a very good thing to have, especially for a healer.

    On a side note, I threw all my MP5 gear away, and i gathered all the INT, SPIRIT i could find.
    This is because Holy Concentration only procs from spirit, so i find MP5 useless on my gear from this point of view.
    Btw: no mana problems here

    Still, with the change to MP5 in 3.2, i might be tempted to try out some MP5 gear...even if i don't think so at this point
    And yes, change some SP gems with spirit, int.

  13. #33
    Scarab Lord Izenhart's Avatar
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    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    From www.elitistjerks.com

    Q: 1 or 2 points in Surge of Light?
    A: Personally, I can't justify a second point in a talent that gives me a "free" Flash Heal that is incapable of proc'ing anything except Serendipity. 1 point is fine: if you cast PoH and *don't* crit at least once, something is seriously wrong; most of my casts have at least 2 crits, sometimes more (in the case of pets in the party). Same goes for CoH. 1 point seems entirely sufficient. Some people swear by 2, but you have to pay for that point, so consider carefully.
    I personally hate who answers another person's opinion with linking Elitist Jerks person's opinion, it's just a "LOLNOOB EJ > Every single other person's thought lololol EJ is the LAW".

    The guy on the Healing Compendium @ EJ didn't even mentioned that sol is very often needed to go OO5SR, and the need of SoL is NOT a "free flash heal that is incapable of proccing anything" as he says, but the higher chance you'll have to stay OO5SR is SoL procs more, since except some fights, and not with a 100% uptime during them, but just occasionally you'll need to use PoH, you'll be able to carry on with Renew, CoH, PoM and SoL'd procs for long enough to let you regen 30% mana or more.

  14. #34

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    The reason why EJ has 1/2 SoL is because they put 5/5 in Emp Healing. I would rather have 3/3 ToF, 2/2 SoL, and 1 point somewhere else (I put it into LW because my raiders have learned to click it). Why you ask? Because my healing style has FH 4-6 on the list of healing spells. I'd rather have CoH, PoH, ProM, or FH (or any heal for that matter) heal for 12% more on targets below 50% health, than give my FH/BH get an extra 20% of my SP (about 600 extra for me).

    I'd rather have 2/2 SoL, but not for getting OSFSR, because honestly, it just doesn't happen like it use to. I hate RNG... I like things to happen when I know they will happen. 1/2 SoL is a 25% chance on crit to proc SoL. 2/2 SoL is a 50% change on crit to proc SoL. It just gives me better odds. I'm not *always* chain casting CoH and PoH throughout the fight. Often, it is my ProM that procs SoL.

    Oh... and the current EJ build has 5/5 Divine Fury. Those are wasted points. If your still clinging to GH, its time to find closure. I suggest honey mint tea and a good cry.

    My 1 extra point in SoL is a helluva less of a waste than the 10 points in 5/5 Emp Healing and 5/5 Divine Fury. The EJ thread reads like 1/2 SoL gives your a 100% chance to proc on crit. Its only 25%... I'd rather it be at 50%.

    To be fair, the EJ writer does talk about removing these talents in his "no-GH" build and calls the spec "interesting."

    Worshaka is right, however, the disparity in SoL procs is also attributable to the number of CoH "hits" between the two parses.

    With all due respect to EJ, they are far better at raw Simcraft--their math is always spot on--than "Bible" quality advice/info for healers. Very, very good information, but not foolproof.

  15. #35

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Player07
    Having in mind that most aspects of build/spells used were covered in this thread, i only have one question / advice:

    - since you have tailoring, why not use Darkglow Embroidery http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55769?

    I feel that this is a very good thing to have, especially for a healer.

    On a side note, I threw all my MP5 gear away, and i gathered all the INT, SPIRIT i could find.
    This is because Holy Concentration only procs from spirit, so i find MP5 useless on my gear from this point of view.
    Btw: no mana problems here
    I definitely agree with you on both of those points. I use Darkglow Embroidery as well as Insightful Earthsiege Diamond

    The Darkglow is 300 mana return every 12-15 seconds and Insightful is 600 mana return every 12-15 seconds. And they have separate internal CD. In the course of a 5 minute fight, that returns at LEAST 4k mana.
    Timmy was a chemist's son, alas he is no more.
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  16. #36

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    I might be totaly off here and if so im sorry, because im shadow like 99% of the time. To me you sound like someone that uses every GCD to heal, and unless your doing it correctly you will have mana issues. Here are some things ive 'learnt' from experience since i also try and use every GCD to heal.

    1. If your going for such a high amount of HPS - gem for int until you think your ready to change to other stats

    2. Your a holy priest dont tank heal, dont bubble (if theres a disc priest), dont flash heal unless you have a SOL proc and dont ever Gheal, your main healing arsenal is COH, POH, POM and renew. Basically disc is there to bubble the raid/tank heal, shammies are there to snipe heal/tank heal, pallies are there to tank heal, you and resto druids are there to raid heal, dont waste mana, say for example you see a tank take 15k damage, dont line up a heal because more than likely everyone else is lining up a heal and more than likely it will be overheal.

    3. As i said above i wouldnt bubble if theres a disc in the raid, and if theres not i only would do it if its necessary such as steelbreakers fusion punch in hardmode.

    4. Only heal when its needed, this is what i do basically and it seems to work - Ill give you an example of XT, his hitting the tank, you wait, keep waiting, he casts light bomb on someone, renew them, keep waiting, then when tantrum comes POM someone and just faceroll POM/COH till everyones healed, this should eat your mana, but doesnt matter you dont have to heal again for a while.

    5. Lastly dont randomly bubble/renew people if its not needed, its just breaking your mp5 rule and your losing alot more mana that just the heals.

    Again if im off my bad, its just how i play when im holy and it seems to work.
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  17. #37

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Izenhart
    I personally hate who answers another person's opinion with linking Elitist Jerks person's opinion, it's just a "LOLNOOB EJ > Every single other person's thought lololol EJ is the LAW".

    The guy on the Healing Compendium @ EJ didn't even mentioned that sol is very often needed to go OO5SR, and the need of SoL is NOT a "free flash heal that is incapable of proccing anything" as he says, but the higher chance you'll have to stay OO5SR is SoL procs more, since except some fights, and not with a 100% uptime during them, but just occasionally you'll need to use PoH, you'll be able to carry on with Renew, CoH, PoM and SoL'd procs for long enough to let you regen 30% mana or more.
    This quote was from the Holy Priest guild, ie the opening thread and EJ's don't leave those threads up unless they are worth something.

    I'm not going to bother trying to prove it mathematically coz I don't have the time right this second but lets say you had a 40% crit rate and cast PoH or CoH often... everytime you cast these spells on average you would get 2 critical hits... if you get 2 critical hits with one spell, whether you have a 25% or 50% chance to proc SoL logic tells you on average you would get the same amount of procs...

    Now add in that you probably glyph CoH so you hit an extra target and now factor in your cast rate of PoH & CoH in comparison to your single target heals and you will definitely find that the extra point in SoL is not that effective. I may choose to model it when I have some time and post the results.

  18. #38

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sissadora
    I'm throwing around a whole lot of Renews.
    I think changing this alone could make a significant impact in your mana conservation. Priests want to think that since the T8druid 4p bonus = Emp renew, Renew = Rejuv. Renew is so very inferior to Rejuv. Consider this on your next farming raid: take Renew off your bar. Compare your healing throughput and mana efficiency. There are some moments when a HoT is useful, but Renew should not be a staple.

    Also, on your Auriaya kill, you have a disc priest and 2 holy pallies - 3 great single target healers. There is absolutely no reason for you to ever cast GH. In fact, with that healing comp, you are doing your raid a disservice by not maximizing your raid healing abilities. And GH is another huge mana dump.

    I like a holy spec that focuses on raid healing:
    http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbuZrEzcbMqihhIzAo

    Regarding the 1/2 vs 2/2 SoL debate, Worshaka's point that a double crit is wasted is valid. I have tried both specs before and I really felt I had noticeably more procs with 2/2, but admittedly very subjective.

    As primarily a Disc priest, I find it a bit frustrating that there's always so much discussion about Holy specs but essentially nothing about Disc specs because the Disc tree is cookie-cutter or nothing, but the Holy tree is saturated with solid talents.

  19. #39
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    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by cruxxy
    I think changing this alone could make a significant impact in your mana conservation. Priests want to think that since the T8druid 4p bonus = Emp renew, Renew = Rejuv. Renew is so very inferior to Rejuv. Consider this on your next farming raid: take Renew off your bar. Compare your healing throughput and mana efficiency. There are some moments when a HoT is useful, but Renew should not be a staple.
    I couldn't disagree more here. Sure Renew doesn't match up with the arsenal of HoTs available to a Druid, but it's a very mana efficient spell when compared to Flash Heal if you and your fellow raid healers are patient enough to let it tick. If all you get out of it is the initial heal and maybe 1-2 ticks because the Shamans and other Holy Priests are sniping it, of course it won't be efficient. Now, I won't say it should replace Flash Heal either, but when used intelligently, like when people don't need to be topped off right away or when there's constant damage (Iron Council, Hodir, etc.), it's often a better choice than Flash Heal.

  20. #40

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuq
    it's a very mana efficient spell when compared to Flash Heal if you and your fellow raid healers are patient enough to let it tick.
    Do you have a WWS/WoL to show? I have never seen a WWS where Renew was any significant part of a Holy priest's throughput. But I guess I raid with a bunch of snipers. I can't imagine asking other healers to let Renew tick.

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