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  1. #41
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    996

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by cruxxy
    Do you have a WWS/WoL to show? I have never seen a WWS where Renew was any significant part of a Holy priest's throughput. But I guess I raid with a bunch of snipers. I can't imagine asking other healers to let Renew tick.
    Sorry, no recent WWS/WoL; I do most of my analysis in real time using Skada to see my spell selection if I feel I need to make adjustments. IIRC, Renew tends to be anywhere around 10-15% of my total healing over a full Ulduar clear, but it's hard to compare directly to Flash Heal since I often switch to Discipline for a few fights. Then again, it probably works out better for me since we often have one or two Druids also on raid duty, so people tend to be a little more conscious about letting HoTs tick. If it's important, I'll try to remember to log tomorrow's raid and parse it.

  2. #42

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    I dont know if you guys are referring to 25 man, or 10 man. But at least in our 10 man where we usually run 2 healers. Disc priest + Holy priest, I just did a quick look at the few ulduars we've done at the holy priests #1 heal throughout the entire run is renew.

    Granted, we dont get past hodir, but thats because we only raid about once a week, and we've only been in there about 3 times now. And I know most of these beginning bosses are considered "easy" by alot, and I think they are too. Hodir seems like a fun encounter, even though we only got to attempt it a few times.

    The only fight where renew is not #1 is Auriaya and Ignis. There's alot of damage thrown around in these fights, so his CoH comes out on top. Again though, I dont know if thats different cause we only use 2 healers and its just a 10 man vs a 25 man, where there is much more likely a chance of a renew heal being wasted.

    He keeps it up pretty nicely though, and sinec there is just 2 of us, most of the time I call out a tank im healing, he will get the other. Occassionally I'll throw him a backup heal (disc is easy to do so with) so he can more easily watch the raid.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2czDSrDTgWuX9a4n/
    is the link, if you'd like to scrutinize.

    Clearly I'm (themanslave) a disc priest and Plavalagoona is the holy priest.

  3. #43

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by cruxxy
    Regarding the 1/2 vs 2/2 SoL debate, Worshaka's point that a double crit is wasted is valid. I have tried both specs before and I really felt I had noticeably more procs with 2/2, but admittedly very subjective.
    I've been looking into the probability effect of 1/2 vs 2/2 and as I suspected 2/2 doesn't necessarily double the chance of a proc. The hard bit is modelling the number of procs because there are many variables such as, what spells are being used, how often are spells being cast, is the SoL proc being used immediately? Is PoM bouncing to all 5 targets and if so how quickly?

    Basically the chance of a SoL proc is equal to 1 - (1 - C*S)^n where C is crit, S is your SoL proc chance (0.25 or 0.5) and N is the number of targets the heal will hit. If we look at a glyphed CoH heal with a 30% crit chance, the chance of a SoL proc with 1/2 SoL is 37.36%, 2/2 SoL is 62.29%... as you can see it's not double the 1/2 probability and this continues to have diminishing returns based on the number of people you hit with a spell or as your crit increases.

    Unfortunetly mapping the true effect of SoL uptime is far more difficult, but you will find with PoM bouncing around, casting PoH and CoH before FH (it happens a lot) you will overrride many existing SoL procs... again this is contingent on your healing style and the going on's of the particular encounter. Personally I have used both 2/2 and 1/2 SoL and found no real difference and nor have I found healing the early Uld25 hard mode encounters difficult due to lack of mana.

    In any case if people disagree it would be good for them to post some evidence to support their view instead of telling me linking evidence from well respected sites is stupid.

  4. #44

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    I just registered with MMO Champion so that I could thank the various posters for this thread. I am extremely new at this healing business - and by new I mean, my only healer has been 80 for five days, and was below level 30 four months ago - and I'm in a small, casual raiding guild on a small, casual server, so a lot of this stuff is still kind of baffling. But the more I mine this thread for things to watch for while I'm healing, the better I get. Very valuable!

    (Because I know people always enjoy looking other people up, this is me:

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...cn=Leeloominai

    Don't yell. I said I was new! )

  5. #45

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    To the above posters, on an average night, Renew is about 22% of my total healing, roughly a close match up to Circle, Mending, and Prayer, and usually doubling my Flash Heal; I'll usually only Flash Heal if I a) Have a Renew on someone and they need more oomph, b) Have a Surge of Light proc, or c) need to build up serendipity (but haste is a mitigating factor on needing three stacks, I find myself precasting Prayer more often than I try to build three stacks "just" to use it.)


    Some fights Renew blows my other heals out of the water, others not so much. But hey, I've put a group together that runs with druids regularily and knows that HoTs can and do work quite effectively if you let them tick.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  6. #46

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Renew is great but its usefulness depends on raid composition and how the other healers interact with you. I ran usually with a holy pally, me (holy priest) and 4 druids. Their hots are so powerful and so plentiful in this combo that I find my renew is overheal for the most part whenever I decide to cast it. It is always up on a tank and I certainly use it on the raid a lot too but it's far from being my #1 spell.

  7. #47

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Flash Heal vs Renew

    My Flash Heals hit for about 5.5K non crit for the cost of 625 mana (I use the FH glyph)

    My Renew will hit initiall for about 1.4K and tick for around 2K for the cost of 656 mana.

    It all boils down to the situation... if someone needs a heal of around 5K to reach max health and they are not going to take any more damage in the next 15sec flash heal is the better option. It will cost less net mana and build serendipity. If the target needs to be healed for more than 5K and can afford to be healed slowly in that particularly situation and is likely to take more damage in the next 15sec that won't kill them, and providing your other healers aren't going to snipe your renew heal, then renew is the better option.

    Another advantage of renew is it can be used as a preemptive heal... XT's tantrum is comming, throw some renews on the raid leading into it and all of a sudden you get 2 or 3 ticks onto several targets for what is effectively 0 cost in terms of GCD's.

    Again I think the community always try to think in terms of buff/nerf or this > that... instead renew and flash heals have strengths and weaknesses and the good players identify the correct spell for the occasion.

  8. #48

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Always try to be efficient with your healing and use your mana regen talents wisely.

  9. #49
    Dreadlord
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Elune
    Posts
    996

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    What Worshaka says about Flash Heal vs. Renew is good stuff, and this is pretty much how I feel on the issue. I love Renew (though, apparently, not as much as Kelesti, since I think I got about 16% of my heals from it in my last raid between the ticks and Empowered), but it's still about balance. Sometimes one is appropriate, sometimes the other is. But again, it all depends on style, raid composition, and situation.

  10. #50

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Sorry for ressing the thread.. I bumped into this through google and search functions. I'm currently investigating the effect of SoL and its chances to proc in order to get a conclusion on its proc mechanics.

    It seems there are 2 possible interpretations. The first is this one:
    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    I've been looking into the probability effect of 1/2 vs 2/2 and as I suspected 2/2 doesn't necessarily double the chance of a proc.
    ...

    Basically the chance of a SoL proc is equal to 1 - (1 - C*S)^n where C is crit, S is your SoL proc chance (0.25 or 0.5) and N is the number of targets the heal will hit.
    And is also the view I had for a long time!

    The link to EJ's thread also supports this theory. However the first page of that very same thread already includes a reply from one of their theorycrafters to counter that theory. His reasoning is that if the spell causes at least 1 crit, then you get a 25%/50% chance on a SoL proc in which case the 2nd SoL point would be as valuable as the first. The formula for this would then be: [1-(1-C)^n] * 25% * Rank where C is crit, n is number of targets the heal will hit and Rank is the SoL rank.

    In order to get conclusive numbers, I checked a few parses. I'm still investigating some more in detail as I'm lacking numbers to make the statistics valid at this point. Still, this is what I have atm:
    # crits#ProcsRateT1T2
    1 crit(s)261453.85%50%50%
    2 crit(s)16956.25%75%50%
    3 crit(s)6466.67%87.5%50%
    4 crit(s)4375%93.75%50%
    5 crit(s)000%96.88%50%
    6 crit(s)000%98.44%50%
    Where:
    #Crits is the amount of crits scored with a single CoH cast
    # is the the amount of CoH's found with that amount of crits
    # Procs is the amount of SoL procs linked to a CoH with that amount of crits
    Rate is the measured procrate for SoL on such CoH's
    T1 is the expected procrate according to the first theory, quoted from Worshaka
    T2 is the expected procrate according to the second theory, with a 2/2 SoL

    The measurement was done in ToC with a priest that had 2/2 SoL and 25% crit. It's way too low in number to be conclusive, especially for 3-4-5-6 crits on 1 CoH, but it seems to lean closer to theory 2 than theory 1. I wrote a small script to deduct this data but it wasn't very well written (not generic for different playernames). I'm going to improve this script, so that it can work on different logs and then find some logs over at WoL or WWS to get more datas. To be continued....

  11. #51

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Well, alot of people are taking that value mathematically about "if I'm casting multi-target heals, and they multi-crit, that's a Surge of Light". Even 2/2, and I get a 4 crit across CoH, I still don't get Surge of Light 100% of the time.

    And I do a lot of Single Targets, which obviously crit less frequently by design than CoH or set-bonuses on PoH, and I can tell you dropping that SoL would make a big difference there.

    It's not a guaranteed crit, or building charges on crit. A chance is still a chance, and I'll take a bigger one over a smaller one any day of the week.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  12. #52

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Obviously playstyles can differ but I think it is relevant to investigate this. I was going to ninja-edit this data in untill I noticed your reply

    More data on my small test:

    CoH78
    sol30
    hits/CoH4.68
    sol/coh38.46%
    Old theory46.76%
    New theory37.15%


    So there's a large difference in what 2/2 SoL is worth in the old theory and new one. But the difference becomes really big with 1/2 SoL where the 'old' theory (defending 1/2) would claim a 30% crit chance and 1/2 SoL would give 37.4% chance on an SoL crit, whereas the 'new' theory claims this would be 22%. Not a small difference and definitely worth checking out.

  13. #53

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Holy Priest here - and yes, I feel your pain.

    I understand we get 50% mana regen increase from holy concentration, should I start stacking more crit? Although im quite happy where most of my stats are right now, idk what the problem is.

  14. #54

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Stack Int as much as u can.
    Int is biggest mana return in a raid.
    Int provides crit.

    2/2 SoL is Twice as good as 1/2.
    1 CoH or 1 PoH almost guarantees a SoL proc with all raid buffs MoTW/Int/Kings/Boomkin-Ele.
    CoH 6 people but 1 is still fairly low insta Flash heal.
    Pom people who will take damage or PoM yourself and take some damage, dont PoM MT if u have a disc priest, thats where theirs will usually be.

    As holy priest you should be Raid healer unless you have amazing gear and can sustain Gheal spam.
    The spec i would use as a raid healer would be.
    http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbu...ihMguVo:mN0VM0

    If you like Lightwell, drop a point from empowered healing.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Barthilas&n=Strykie

  15. #55

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Stack Int as much as u can.
    Int is biggest mana return in a raid.
    Int provides crit.
    I myself stack Spirit over any other stat. I have no trouble with mana and I spam heal with flash/CoH an awful lot, renews on the tanks and POM at every cool down. I don't have a single Mp5 item, and my mana regen in combat is comparable to those who use it, and I have more spell power because of the increased spirit.

    I've stacked spirit since BC, and it hasn't failed me yet with all the new changes. You can check my armory if you want, but I have my plagued protodrake, and one achievement short of my rusted. I think I manage well enough with Spirit.
    Science started out as a form of Magic.
    When Science is advanced enough Magic is dispelled.
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from Magic.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...istract/simple

  16. #56

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    2 points in surge can help with gettign out of 5 second rule still also.

    It's possible at times to chain surge procs with mending bouncing;
    Also pick up inner focus, use it once per fight with Divine hymn(channeled, also pulling you out of 5sec while maintaining healing throughput). You can easily have a surge proc, a space when you're not needed to heal, divine hymn and then another surge proc maintaining out of combat regen.
    Use inner focus multiple times per fight, constructive use can always grab you regen, quite apart from the free spell plus increased crit chance, prayer is the most expensive spell after divine hymn to get savings with it, that's not the be all and end all however. Pop inner focus when you see a break in healing, wait with it sitting there until you have to force your hand out of regen time, Circle, proc surge off that, again healing throughput without forcing yourself into constant combat healing.

    All the small pieces(even a single tick) outside of 5sec build up over time to quite a significant chunk.

    Make sure you use all your cooldowns, you'll know the relative length of most fights for your guild's style, if there's going to be time enough to use your cooldowns multiple times, make sure you use cooldowns the first time early enough to make sure you do make use of them multiple times.

    PS. Get rid of your offhand, it's disgracing the rest of your gear.

  17. #57

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Well, alot of people are taking that value mathematically about "if I'm casting multi-target heals, and they multi-crit, that's a Surge of Light". Even 2/2, and I get a 4 crit across CoH, I still don't get Surge of Light 100% of the time.

    And I do a lot of Single Targets, which obviously crit less frequently by design than CoH or set-bonuses on PoH, and I can tell you dropping that SoL would make a big difference there.

    It's not a guaranteed crit, or building charges on crit. A chance is still a chance, and I'll take a bigger one over a smaller one any day of the week.
    My point is you don't need a massive amount of SoL proc's to heal effectively... 1/2 provides enough procs for you to do your job... 2/2 just gives you too many procs and most of them get used to simply overheal someone, perhaps you could argue it's a free serendipity stack but I never struggle with serendipity stacks in any case.

  18. #58

    Re: Holy mana management problems - or is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    My point is you don't need a massive amount of SoL proc's to heal effectively... 1/2 provides enough procs for you to do your job... 2/2 just gives you too many procs and most of them get used to simply overheal someone, perhaps you could argue it's a free serendipity stack but I never struggle with serendipity stacks in any case.
    But I've replaced Flash Heal (for the most part) with Renew, and maintain high mobility throughout a lot of fights, sometimes excessively so, when it's not needed. This last part is my fail more than anybody else's, but it lets me see more of the fight, and maintain a higher situational awareness.

    And being able to cast Flash Heal on the run should a target need more burst-healing than an Empowered Renew is made of win, in my opinion. It's not "required" but it helps me do my job alot more than 1/2 ever would.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

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