can i demand good play from puggers for loot?

[Huntardo]

I really believe that when you run a pug you should always look at who is still alive after the fight and give the loot between those people. To me as long as your trying you should have as much of a chance to get the loot as the top dps'er. Besides most of the time the top 4 dps in most OS runs don't need gear anyway their just their to play with their friend.

For all the people that play on Laptops and you start to DC alot I don't feel any pitty for you. I usually don't care for excusses about internet connection and such crap. I would not be raiding if my comp and connection was failing. Cause in the end it makes you look bad as a player.

In the end I say yes you should only give loot to puggers if they are playing good.

[Jonisawsom]

Failing once may be kind of harsh. Yesterday I jumped into an OS 25 PuG that my buddy was in (19 people in there till Sarth and then 2 had to leave).

I didn't get most of my buffs until the second drake because they buffed up then summoned me.
The two resto druids combined for 1 decurse, I had 17 and another mage had 16.
I finished the run with the highest damage done and dps.
Tanks liked to start next pull while us mana users were just sitting down to drink.

No I am not pro or anything, but my point is that (and happens when I heal on my druid as well) sometimes you get aggro from adds. They stun/daze you and you get caught in a flame wall. Some classes can get out of that, and since I got hit last second, it was too late to blink. I ate the flame wall, so immediately ice blocked. Healers topped me off and add tank got the adds back.

Did I fail on 1 flame? Yes. Did I also counter that very quickly? Yes. I also came in first on dps and damage done, as well as removing curses. Nothing dropped for me except the satchel which I luckily rolled a 100 on, with someone else getting a 99 lol.

I don't play my mage a ton and wouldn't have minded that I got nothing (as usual) but would have been a little annoyed if the 1 flame wall had kept me from getting loot. I also happened to be one of the last dps alive (possibly only) as we almost wiped on the last flame wall when 2/3 of the raid died.

I do happen to agree with there being some rules in PuGs as a good thing, like sub 1k dps or repeatedly dying to avoidable damage. Just pointing out that sometimes there is more to consider than a single piece of information.

[Jonisawsom]

I really believe that when you run a pug you should always look at who is still alive after the fight and give the loot between those people.

For the most party this is probably true, but definitely not always. There are a number of times when I have seen stupid people on Grob run next to someone who just got hit by the injection and blow them up. Also frost tombs on KT, where the person in the tomb has to rely on the healers. In my old guild I was regularly the top healer on all fights and would save pretty much every single frost tomb on KT, and then I'd get it and the other healer(s) would fail and not save me.

If you are dying to void zones and flame walls etc over and over, then yeah the death = no loot rule isn't bad. But then again they would also likely fall into the rule of very low damage done.

[skypunk_lx]

I agree that after two mistakes you can limit their roll on gear, I admit some times, I make stupid mistakes ( never play while stoned after a bad night of sleep) if I make them and can't roll, fine I broke the rules and didn't deserve the loot.

i just want to add a recent experience from OS10, mind you, i was not the leader, i was the MT.

in the end, we get him down. i open up my failaddon and i see the following:

total fails on voidzones: 13.
total fails on flame tsunamis: 17

Then those who died or take to many dives in to the lava wall, if you had put that premise could've been barred of the loot. The thing that bothers more is more Lava Wall failures, at least for me its much more easy to dodge that than Void Zones, void zones you have 3 seconds to move (this is a good fight to diminish graphs so you could see void zones easily worked wonders for me before the patch that made them bright purple) and lava wall you have like 8 seconds to move after the "Run away, little girls run away" warning if (and you should) you use DBM.

For all the people that play on Laptops and you start to DC alot I don't feel any pitty for you. I usually don't care for excusses about internet connection and such crap. I would not be raiding if my comp and connection was failing. Cause in the end it makes you look bad as a player.

You are pugging not doing "hardcore" or serious guild raiding, I now play on a laptop is enough to run Naxx, but on Ulduar my pc sometimes has a serious decrease of FPS, that's why combined with the exams, I decided to have a little vacations on raiding, but for pugging you shouldn't be forced to buy a new pc. As I said it can happen, but you can usually know when that happens

[jontaxe]

Look, no matter what rule anyone comes up with, someone will have a legitimate exception to. Esp. because no raid is going to read a 5 page legal disclaimer per boss, so any "rule" has to be 1 line. If some add dazed you into a flame wall and you didn't get the bag, chalk it up to bad luck.

But a RL can't say something as vague as "don't suck, don't be afk, and don't waste other people's time", because that will cause whining loot drama every single time.

So we are stuck with imperfect 1 line loot rules to try to mitigate the total slackers.

[Xemik]

might seem like an odd title, but i mean the following:

i start an OS10 pug. when the pug is full, i give the following loot rules (before they are saved):
getting hit by more than 2 flame waves = no loot.
getting hit by more than 1 flame wave = no shot at the bag.
getting hit by 1 or less flame waves = chance to win the satchel of spoils.

would these rules be "legal"? because i lately get lot of fail in pugs.

I'm trying to get my guild officers to start something similar..
Die to a flame wall or void zone during OS3D and your not allowed to roll on the mount.

[Jonisawsom]

If some add dazed you into a flame wall and you didn't get the bag, chalk it up to bad luck.

Couldn't that also be considered the add tanks fault for not picking up the adds fast enough? I'm not trying to argue, because generally the walls are not hard to avoid, but sometimes bad stuff happens.

Like I put in my other post, sometimes you die or get hit by something because of other people. So who do you blame there? If I die on KT because the healers didn't heal me in the frost tomb, do I get banned from loot? Do you ban the healers for not doing their job? What about the add tank not picking up all the adds, and a dps or healer gets killed?

It's hard to make clear cut 100% rules for everything. And as has been mentioned, generally the people in a PuG are not going to be the super top of the line, cutting edge players that are in high end raiding guilds, so you can't expect that kind of play from them. But there are certain things you can and should expect of people even in a PuG.

[Deleted]

Then those who died or take to many dives in to the lava wall, if you had put that premise could've been barred of the loot. The thing that bothers more is more Lava Wall failures, at least for me its much more easy to dodge that than Void Zones, void zones you have 3 seconds to move (this is a good fight to diminish graphs so you could see void zones easily worked wonders for me before the patch that made them bright purple) and lava wall you have like 8 seconds to move after the "Run away, little girls run away" warning if (and you should) you use DBM.

first off, not everyone used DBM. most puggers even never heard of addons.

secondly, voidzones are only a few feet to move, are small diameter, and normally spawn under someone who is alone (since most raids have 2-3 healers and 2-3 ranged DPS). lag is also a bit more forgiving for voidzones, since you can't really move too far for them (unless you fall off the cliff or pull adds). these have a hand in lower fail count on them.

flame waves, on the other hand: if you are caught near the center of the middle one on the south wave, or near the east corner on the north wave, you often have about 10 yards to move. instead of a small zone where you can be hit, you have (a) small zone(s) where you can NOT be hit. flame waves cross over the entire island. if you are not at least halfway across the island from where the wave comes, you need to travel a rather long distance in a short time. since you have a small opening, with before and after that opening fire, you can travel too far.

and you only need 2 people who fail on each wall and 1 who fails on half of them to get such figures (7 waves in general, means 14+3 = 17).

and to kileak, who posted that most people who pug are either bad or undergeared:

check my armory. i have nearly full naxx10 gear (for prot spec, retri is heroic), but my guild is a RL social guild. they don't raid. i once was in a true raiding guild, but after one officer ninja'd all frozen orbs and the guildmaster ninja'd all the enchanting mats, i got into an argument with them. i am a good player, witness to that is my KT25 achievement, which i got with 30K HP fully raidbuffed. you don't get that if you are a fail player (anyone who wants to disprove that by saying they got that as well implies that they are fail players). i was kicked out of that guild. mind you, i was not a drama person. the officers and guildmaster were bank ninja's, i tried to ask them why, they kick me.

my paladin is my main, but i still pug with him for emblems, which i will use for epic gems come 3.2. my alts are not even 80 yet.

and i don't want to reserve good loot, i just think that nothing comes free. if you want to get something, you need to work for it. i pay about 6-10G in repair costs each time i pug something for emblems. i need to work for that gold (not much, but it is an effort i need to do in order to be able to clear it). likewise, if someone wants to get his bag or satchel, he needs to not mess up his raiding, i.e. not fail at flame waves. it is just fair: i put effort in my gear and style of play, then so should they.

[Shiira]

first off, not everyone used DBM. most puggers even never heard of addons.

You don't even need DBM for this stuff.

You get a giant message on the screen saying that a wave is coming several seconds in advance, if you start moving straight away you can WALK out of the way of the wave.

There just aren't any excuses for messing up trivial things like this.

[Uroboros]

To the OP, have you heard of this thing called life? It happens around you. Sometimes people get hit by things such as lava waves and its not their fault at all. They could be using a wireless mouse and the batteries die, or their internet may have a lag spike. Either way, I can understand if they get hit more than 5 times that it is a problem. But seriously... 1 or 2? You have to realize that some people are just starting out raiding and therefore do not have as much experience as others.

[anyaka21]

I think the main thing that OP is talking about is relative and dependent of which boss.

Sure minimum dps is pretty much required for some boss fights, however even with a fight like Emalon, 2k min dps is pretty much required, however, there are usually 5 that are pulling more than 5k that can pick up the slack.

If you are a new 80, you're a min dps'er, most likely less than the tanks. However, I don't think it's too much to ask that those toons don't die to the Lightning Overload, and switch targets to the overcharged add. I'd have no issues not handing loot to them if they died because they didn't move out of overload.

New 80's need gear and upgrades more than anyone, and places like naxx, esp naxx10 don't really require much in terms of hardcore dps, but more importantly knowledge of fight and positioning.

Any pugs I've ever run, and I typically don't do a whole lot, but those that I have, I'll go with someone in blues and greens that know the fights as opposed to someone in better gear that I'm not sure of.

Examples, back in BC after the heavy nerfs, I had toons that I wanted to get Hyjal, SSC, etc... achievements. I started pugs almost every day to get those down. I specifically said in /trade and /lfg that I didn't care what loot you had as long as you knew the fight. No wipes, and good times had by all.

[taishar68]

It's not "elitism", it's not "being a prick". It's simply watching out for the other 24 people, and out of necessity.

No one expects some titansteel packing pugger to put out 7k DPS, but the fact of the matter is that if you don't reach some DPS threshold, Emalon's adds are going to blow you up, and the most rainbows and kittens and sunshiniest raid leader can't change that. Too many on emalon at sub 1k DPS = you are going to lose. It's nothing personal, it's just math.

If you wipe on Emalon due to low DPS, kick said low DPS, end of problem. If you beat Emalon, and everyone was active the whole fight, they all get a shot, in my opinion.

[taishar68]

Imo all PuGs should be run with rules similar to the OP or somewhere along the lines of 'you dont perform, you dont have a chance of reward'. I try and not penalise people to the extent where they have a 0% chance of a drop but I do give higher prio to those who perform well or above expectancy.

My personal way of doing this is simply getting the raid together and telling them at the start the 'chance' of being able to roll is based on there performance and nothing else, no details. Being a bit of an elitist (flame me, I get shit done efficiently thats all that matters to me..) heres how I do it:

Initial performance is simply based on how well they do they role in the raid. I try to take everything into consideration from how well the individual is (gear/rotations/guild rank/achievements etc) compared to the rest of the raid + there set task. Ie, I would never try and directly compare a ranged DPS to a melee for a fight like Emalon or a raid healer to a tank healer and never compare a fresh 80 dinged in blues to a full T8 raider. I use my own head and 2 general addons for this.

Using V10 as an example.. Ensidiafails for tracking who does and doesn't do what correctly or efficiently. I dont give a crap if you put out 5k DPS or and heal through something.. if you hit a wall or dont move that would be -1 say. Recount with a couple of addons (ie Absorb track for Disc priests) helps track what the person actually did through out the raid. Ie a Rogue may be sitting at 5-6k DPS FoK spamming but did he bother to actually dispell the enraged eles or help on a drake etc or my new personal favourite is checking out Holy Priests recount and seeing how they have used 100+ flash heals and 5 greaters, 1 pom and no renews.. meh.

Now most people will argue 'well we killed him/her/it' but do I give a fck, no, not really. Nothing wrong with arguing back 'well he/her/its' has been killed 30 times already but none that took an extra 2-5 minutes.

If you down Emalon and have a rogue who did 5-6k damage, but didn't dispel the enragers, you would withhold an upgrade from him? Are you out of your mind? Granted, if you wipe because he didn't, that is something to consider...but if you KILL the boss and he contributes a high amount of DPS...who cares about what he didn't dispel?

If you have a one Mage while downing 10man Noth, with two druid healers, will you hold back gear from the mage because he didn't decurse?

[anyaka21]

If you down Emalon and have a rogue who did 5-6k damage, but didn't dispel the enragers, you would withhold an upgrade from him? Are you out of your mind? Granted, if you wipe because he didn't, that is something to consider...but if you KILL the boss and he contributes a high amount of DPS...who cares about what he didn't dispel?

If you have a one Mage while downing 10man Noth, with two druid healers, will you hold back gear from the mage because he didn't decurse?

You have to understand that any halfway decent raid leader who puts up min requirements for loot will understand if a mage does 1.5k dps but has 17 decurses. If, however, he does 1.6k dps but only has 1 decurse, that might be another issue.

I've gotta believe that any raid leader who is going to make minimum requirements for loots will understand the fights. And if he doesn't, that would probably be the worst pug ever.

[Accuser.]

regularly the top healer on all fights and would save pretty much every single frost tomb on KT, and then I'd get it and the other healer(s) would fail and not save me.

^ This

And you dont want to say "4k DPS or no loot" because you'll have assholes who dont hit the overcharging add on Emalon to try to kick their DPS numbers up.

If someone does a crappy job and you get the boss down, they earned a shot at the loot. If someone does a crappy job and you wipe, kick them, and the next person gets a shot at the loot.

[taishar68]

You have to understand that any halfway decent raid leader who puts up min requirements for loot will understand if a mage does 1.5k dps but has 17 decurses. If, however, he does 1.6k dps but only has 1 decurse, that might be another issue.

I've gotta believe that any raid leader who is going to make minimum requirements for loots will understand the fights. And if he doesn't, that would probably be the worst pug ever.

I agree, but that was not what was written; based on what I quoted, it is more of a full set of parameters that he was demanding...perhaps I inferred something that he did not state implicitly because it is common sense, the way you described it.