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  1. #41

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by bestpike
    I wasnt trying to disagree with you. I was trying to see how sure you were about it. You didnt provide any evidence on the subject whatsoever, except that it is "common knowledge". So i dont know how your argument still stands, as you dont have one. You just assume.

    Edit: I'm also searching regularly the EJ forums to find the answer to this, and i havent been able to find anything yet. Some people say it counts towards the crit cap, some say it doesnt. So this common accepted knowledge that you mentioned is nowhere to be found among the theorycrafters.
    Sorry I got caught up in the concept of max crit cap, which I have provided enough evidence to support it can't go above 71.2%. But I believe your question is of the point that below the 71.2% mark that HotC / ToW could affect crit cap. I would love to see any posts you have found that have showed HotC / ToW to have an affect on the crit cap. Posts that INCLUDE testing.

    I say my formula is common knowledge because it IS common knowledge. It is pretty well agreed upon that the basic formula for crit cap is:

    100 - 24 - 4.8 - miss% - dodge%

    This is a formula I have questioned on the EJ forums myself and have had it confirmed by sources such as Mavanas. As I said, find anything substantive and I'll read it carefully.
    "Our logic is actually pretty simple. If hybrid classes can do the same dps as pure classes, then why have pure classes in the game? So we design the pure classes to do slightly higher dps." -Ghostcrawler 3/22/2009
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864857264&pageNo=4&sid=1#66

  2. #42

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by NonMagical
    Sorry I got caught up in the concept of max crit cap, which I have provided enough evidence to support it can't go above 71.2%. But I believe your question is of the point that below the 71.2% mark that HotC / ToW could affect crit cap. I would love to see any posts you have found that have showed HotC / ToW to have an affect on the crit cap. Posts that INCLUDE testing.

    I say my formula is common knowledge because it IS common knowledge. It is pretty well agreed upon that the basic formula for crit cap is:

    100 - 24 - 4.8 - miss% - dodge%

    This is a formula I have questioned on the EJ forums myself and have had it confirmed by sources such as Mavanas. As I said, find anything substantive and I'll read it carefully.
    If it was common knowledge im pretty sure the EJ moderators would know about it. And they dont. They weren't sure of it when i asked them. They just assumed what you are assuming. So i tested this myself to make sure. And ToW indeed doesnt increase the crit cap further than 71.2%. Remember, i wasn't trying to prove you wrong. I was trying to make sure you were right.

  3. #43

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by bestpike
    If it was common knowledge im pretty sure the EJ moderators would know about it. And they dont. They weren't sure of it when i asked them. They just assumed what you are assuming. So i tested this myself to make sure. And ToW indeed doesnt increase the crit cap further than 71.2%. Remember, i wasn't trying to prove you wrong. I was trying to make sure you were right.
    IIRC, EJ handles it as: "It's correct until someone can prove it being wrong."
    It's astonishing how confused people get when a sentence does not end as they potato.

  4. #44

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    NonMagical, your post is slightly wrong, just fyi. You want 76% character sheet crit or 73% with the 3% crit debuff on a mob. The crit depression, as you stated, is crit converted into hit with the key word being converted. Hence, if you only had 71.2% character sheet crit, 4.8% of your 71.2% crit chance would be converted into hit, leaving you with 24% glancing, 66.4% crit, and 9.6% hit, assuming hit and expertise capped. So when considering the WHITE crit cap, it's best to just ignore the crit conversion. Yellow attacks are another story as that is a depression vs conversion and are a 2 roll system vs white attacks being on a 1 roll system.

  5. #45

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Voij
    IIRC, EJ handles it as: "It's correct until someone can prove it being wrong."
    Yes i figured as much. Now to find the person who said what is correct in the first place without any solid proof and we're set. Or maybe said person indeed tested it but didn't provide the evidence to the people.

  6. #46

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by toin7
    NonMagical, your post is slightly wrong, just fyi. You want 76% character sheet crit or 73% with the 3% crit debuff on a mob. The crit depression, as you stated, is crit converted into hit with the key word being converted. Hence, if you only had 71.2% character sheet crit, 4.8% of your 71.2% crit chance would be converted into hit, leaving you with 24% glancing, 66.4% crit, and 9.6% hit, assuming hit and expertise capped. So when considering the WHITE crit cap, it's best to just ignore the crit conversion. Yellow attacks are another story as that is a depression vs conversion and are a 2 roll system vs white attacks being on a 1 roll system.
    I concur to this. You actually need 76% critical on your character sheet in order to reach the crit cap, not 71.2% as mentioned by the OP.

  7. #47

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    The formula is Crit Cap = 100% - 24% Glancing Blows - Dodge % - Miss %.

    If the formula still included 4.8% of either crit depression or crit conversion, nothing would really have changed from a dps modeling perspective, which AFAIK is not the case. If I missed something I admit to being an idiot, I'm running low on sleep recently...

  8. #48

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Joigahdenn
    The formula is Crit Cap = 100% - 24% Glancing Blows - Dodge % - Miss %.

    If the formula still included 4.8% of either crit depression or crit conversion, nothing would really have changed from a dps modeling perspective, which AFAIK is not the case. If I missed something I admit to being an idiot, I'm running low on sleep recently...
    Well I cant understand which side are you on. If you are with the OP's side, i cant fill you in, in detail. If you are with the opposite, you are correct.

  9. #49

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by bestpike
    Well I cant understand which side are you on. If you are with the OP's side, i cant fill you in, in detail. If you are with the opposite, you are correct.
    Why on earth are you picking sides? This is a FAQ, not an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by toin7
    NonMagical, your post is slightly wrong, just fyi. You want 76% character sheet crit or 73% with the 3% crit debuff on a mob. The crit depression, as you stated, is crit converted into hit with the key word being converted. Hence, if you only had 71.2% character sheet crit, 4.8% of your 71.2% crit chance would be converted into hit, leaving you with 24% glancing, 66.4% crit, and 9.6% hit, assuming hit and expertise capped. So when considering the WHITE crit cap, it's best to just ignore the crit conversion. Yellow attacks are another story as that is a depression vs conversion and are a 2 roll system vs white attacks being on a 1 roll system.
    You are correct. This mishap in my original post is a leftover artifact from before I updated it with the new crit to hit conversion. Originally my post talked about what character sheet value was important but since then I have gone the way of other people in calculating crit cap and just used the absolute value (which is 71.2%).

    I forgot to update the exact wording on some of those Q and A's when I updated the numbers. Thanks for the catch!

    Edit: Updated original wording that was in question and credited it to you, toin7.
    "Our logic is actually pretty simple. If hybrid classes can do the same dps as pure classes, then why have pure classes in the game? So we design the pure classes to do slightly higher dps." -Ghostcrawler 3/22/2009
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864857264&pageNo=4&sid=1#66

  10. #50

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    "Why on earth are you picking sides? This is a FAQ, not an argument."

    I was just trying to see what this guy meant so i could fill him in if needed.

    "Originally my post talked about what character sheet value was important but since then I have gone the way of other people in calculating crit cap and just used the absolute value (which is 71.2%)."

    There is no other way in this I'm afraid. Only right and wrong. And saying you need 71.2% on your character sheet to get the crit cap can only mean one thing and its wrong. There is nothing complicated here.

  11. #51

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    Do you even think about what you type before you type it, bestpike? Reread my post. I told toin7 that he was correct in his observation and that I had something written down that was wrong. I also explained how that error came about (that prior to the crit conversion update I was doing math that related directly to the character sheet, but now it doesn't).

    It was simply leftover language from after I updated the numbers to new values. The post was updated correctly days ago, yet you are still interested in making a fuss about it.
    "Our logic is actually pretty simple. If hybrid classes can do the same dps as pure classes, then why have pure classes in the game? So we design the pure classes to do slightly higher dps." -Ghostcrawler 3/22/2009
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864857264&pageNo=4&sid=1#66

  12. #52

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by NonMagical
    Crit Cap = 100 - 24 - 4.8 - ([214 - X] * 0.000305) - ([722 - Y] * 0.000305)

    [i]Where X = your current expertise rating and Y = your current hit rating. This is unless you are Combat. If you are Combat and you have the weapon expertise talent the 214 figure should be changed to 132. Also if you are Alliance and you have Heroic Presence (Draenei racial aura) active, then be sure to add 32.79 to whatever hit rating you have.
    A bit weird that nobody saw the error yet.. Instead of that formula, it should be
    Crit Cap = 100 - 24 - 4.8 - ([214 - X] * 0.0305) - ([722 - Y] * 0.0305)
    Also, above formula assumes you have 5/5 Precision.
    Done: the Seeker, Loremaster, the Exalted
    To do: the Insane

    Màni, Human Rogue, Aerie Peak EU

  13. #53

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Stijn
    A bit weird that nobody saw the error yet.. Instead of that formula, it should be
    Crit Cap = 100 - 24 - 4.8 - ([214 - X] * 0.0305) - ([722 - Y] * 0.0305)
    Also, above formula assumes you have 5/5 Precision.
    You are incorrect. If we used your formula it would assume each point in a rating gives 3.05% of it's attribute. IE 1 hit rating is equivalent to 3.05% more hit.

    This, obviously, is not the case. Instead, each point of hit rating and each point of expertise raise your raise your hit and lower your chance to be dodged by 0.0305%, respectively. And 0.0305% = 0.000305

    Edit: But yes it assumes 5/5 Precision. I forgot to add that wording in there. The web calculator does allow for adjustment of that, although I don't know of any cookie cutters that stray from 5/5 Precision.
    "Our logic is actually pretty simple. If hybrid classes can do the same dps as pure classes, then why have pure classes in the game? So we design the pure classes to do slightly higher dps." -Ghostcrawler 3/22/2009
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864857264&pageNo=4&sid=1#66

  14. #54

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    You forget that the formula is already using percentages (100% - 24% etc) so it is 0.0305% in my formula.

    Let's try with 5/5 Precision, 0 Expertise and 0 Hit Rating.
    100 - 24 - 4.8 - ([214 - 0] * 0.0305) - ([722 - 0] * 0.0305)
    = 100 - 24 - 4.8 - 6.527 - 22.021
    We know that base Dodge is 6.5% and base Miss is 22%.

    If we would take your original formula, we would see this
    100 - 24 - 4.8 - ([214 - 0] * 0.000305) - ([722 - 0] * 0.000305)
    = 100 - 24 - 4.8 - 0.06527 - 0.22021
    Done: the Seeker, Loremaster, the Exalted
    To do: the Insane

    Màni, Human Rogue, Aerie Peak EU

  15. #55

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    Wow. Glaring oversight indeed. It's correct on the website calculator, seems I was just too tired while making this original post and used percents and decimals in the same equation.

    Never thought about it after making it, haha. Thanks for the catch! Should be updated correctly now. It is rather strange that nobody has said anything since now.

    Edit: Looking over the rest of my post it seems that was the only instance of that goof. Further down I have a simple in game macro that I made that doesn't foolishly mix percents and decimals. Again, thanks for the catch.
    "Our logic is actually pretty simple. If hybrid classes can do the same dps as pure classes, then why have pure classes in the game? So we design the pure classes to do slightly higher dps." -Ghostcrawler 3/22/2009
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864857264&pageNo=4&sid=1#66

  16. #56

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    Here's a version of the macro that works properly when above expertise cap.
    Code:
    /script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage ("White Crit Cap: "..(0.712-(math.max(214-GetCombatRating(24),0))*0.000305-(722-GetCombatRating(6))*0.000305)*100)

    EDIT: oops that'll always use 0, back to drawing board.
    EDIT: Working properly now.

  17. #57

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    An update on this.

    Recent research has shown that the 4.8% Crit depression does not exist.
    Back when the original tests were done, they attacked from the front and forgot about Block. Recount will show a partial Block as a Hit.
    This means that the Crit cap is 4.8% higher than originally thought.
    Done: the Seeker, Loremaster, the Exalted
    To do: the Insane

    Màni, Human Rogue, Aerie Peak EU

  18. #58

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Stijn
    An update on this.

    Recent research has shown that the 4.8% Crit depression does not exist.
    Back when the original tests were done, they attacked from the front and forgot about Block. Recount will show a partial Block as a Hit.
    This means that the Crit cap is 4.8% higher than originally thought.
    Could you please include a reference to the data/evidence when making posts like this. Otherwise it's just a random guy saying a random thing, which most people will ignore.

  19. #59

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    Done: the Seeker, Loremaster, the Exalted
    To do: the Insane

    Màni, Human Rogue, Aerie Peak EU

  20. #60

    Re: Critical Strike Cap FAQ

    Interesting read, Stijn. Thanks for linking those threads. I'll once again get around to updating the formula.

    I swear, the agreed upon calculation for crit cap will never remain static. x_x
    "Our logic is actually pretty simple. If hybrid classes can do the same dps as pure classes, then why have pure classes in the game? So we design the pure classes to do slightly higher dps." -Ghostcrawler 3/22/2009
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864857264&pageNo=4&sid=1#66

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