Suggestion for retribution Fix

[Moonias]

I am just launching this idea, if you have suggestions, comments and if you see flaws or predict that it will be OP please, give constructive comments. I will probably post this on official suggestion forums after receiving comments from different sources.

Just my two cents on what they should have done now...
This is a suggestion for a partial redesign of ret paladins abilities (it will touch other specs too but mostly for pvp).

. CS becomes the only ability (apart from auto attack) that can apply SoCorruption debuff, but its damage is fixed to a certain ammount and CD removed.

. The debuffs from Corruption are not dispelleable anymore.

. Judgement of Corruption does damage based on the # of applications and has 100% chance to crit if target is stunned (that could be a talent instead of Seal of comand).

. Judgement of different seals actually do different effects depending on wich judgement you use:
. Judgement of wisdom, drains mana from your target back to the paladin.
. Judgement of light reduces spell damage and healing DONE by the target by some ammount
. Judgement of justice slows target down by some ammount (yes it would mean druids could shapeshift out of slow, or others could trinket it, I find that paladins are too hard of a counter for kiters).

. Judgements would only do damage if you have 5 stacks of Seal of corruption on your target and judging could consume the 5 debuffs(thus no more burst).

This system would actually add some challenge to ret pvp instead of mashing your head on the keyboard (which is what most good players have against ret pallies). You have to choose between mana drain and regaining mana, lowering healing/SP dmg done or slowing your target to be able to catch it. With this you just added minimum 2 more abilities the paladins have to use. So more intelligence needed in pvp (for PVE wisdom would probably become the choice judgement).

If you count only auto attack + CS to apply the stacks, it would probably take the rets about 6 seconds, and 3 GC to apply 5 stacks (assuming weapon speed of 3.5 and assuming 2 auto attacks land + 3 CS) which is alot better than that whooping ~15 seconds that it is right now. Holy and prot paladins can still apply this from auto attacks faster with a 1hander if they really want to and still get the debuff apply from the different judgements.

This kinda looks like combo points, but Blizzard ALREADY made it like combo points but you only get combo points from auto attacks >.<

Tell me what you think.

[Moonias]

Reserved

[Dartanyon]

No.

[zcks]

Honestly they should have slightly lowered the damage of cs, then gave us a new cleave type attack then just buffed the hell outa the damage over time on sov. then they could take the instant damage off sov after 5 stacks and let all melee attacks apply it. This would have solved our problems by giving us about the same burst as we have in 3.2 but not screw over our aoe like it is now.
Or they could bring back the old effect for seal of command that makes it and its judgment always crit when the target is cc'd/stunned (possibly increase it's judgment damage as well) that would give us back our aoe power and give ret a little bit more viability in both pve and pvp

[Moonias]

No.

Please explain... If you don't have any argument, please do not take the time to post.

Honestly they should have slightly lowered the damage of cs, then gave us a new cleave type attack then just buffed the hell outa the damage over time on sov. then they could take the instant damage off sov after 5 stacks and let all melee attacks apply it. This would have solved our problems by giving us about the same burst as we have in 3.2 but not screw over our aoe like it is now.
Or they could bring back the old effect for seal of command that makes it and its judgment always crit when the target is cc'd/stunned (possibly increase it's judgment damage as well) that would give us back our aoe power and give ret a little bit more viability in both pve and pvp

You mean the paladin dmg would rely entirely on the dot applied by SoC/SoV?
And there's no way theyre bringing back the old SoCom effect (100% crit) that JUST was taken off in this patch.

[zcks]

Or they could have done the same thing with blood/martyr but reduced soc just a bit more damage wise per hit but buffed its judgment then left sov alone. Buff righteous vengeance & Add in a new cleave attacks for keeping aoe damage up, then let all attacks apply sov and we would have been fine.

[Moonias]

I don't get half of what you are saying.

Or they could have done the same thing with blood/martyr

What same thing?

And why so after a cleave attack? We already have DS, I disagree on the fact that we need a cleave.

[zcks]

You mean the paladin dmg would rely entirely on the dot applied by SoC/SoV?

not really, the dot effect would be greatly buffed and all attacks would apply it, in addition we would get some type of new cleave style attack, Cs would also have been left at its pre 3.2 model. this would have reduced our instant holy damage done with every melee attack but keep our damage over time strong as well as keep our aoe power at the level it was pre 3.2 although it would be spread out over 2 attacks.

[zcks]

I don't get half of what you are saying.

What same thing?

And why so after a cleave attack? We already have DS, I disagree on the fact that we need a cleave.

The real reason for our insane burst pre 3.2 was seal of blood/martyr and its judgment damage, if they were to have just deleted it and buffed the hell outa pre 3.2 righteous vengeance or seal of vengeance dots then they could have left crusader strike and left the instant damage off sov after 5 stacks. then if they gave us a new cleave style attack to make up for the loss on aoe power as well as allow all attacks to apply sov. this would have gave us about the same burst we have now (maybe slightly higher) without killing our aoe (it would be spread over 2 attacks instead of one).

[mapp]

Paladins are a defensive hybrid... Shamans are the offensive hybrid... just an fyi

. Judgement of Corruption does damage based on the # of applications

isn't that already what happens?

. Judgement of wisdom, drains mana from your target back to the paladin.

no paladins are fine on mana efficiency? divine plea etc

. Judgement of light reduces spell damage and healing DONE by the target by some ammount

no

. Judgement of Corruption does damage based on the # of applications and has 100% chance to crit if target is stunned (that could be a talent instead of Seal of comand).

lol?

This system would actually add some challenge to ret pvp instead of mashing your head on the keyboard

What challenge? getting 5 stacks of corruption and then pop wings and stun and watch them die from dot ticks melting their face off?

PS. I like how a new patch JUST came out and people are already trying to fix classes again... just sad

[Alinor]

I thought maybe making damage lost to low stacks go in to dot effect initially and after 5 stacks remain on per hit basis.

You start staking the seal and you are doing 100% damage but initial damage that you do is not dealt right away, it is stored in the dot, kind of like RV works, DoT rolls doing that damage but after 5 stacks are up damage begins to come on per hit basis and no longer affects the dot.

[Dartanyon]

. CS becomes the only ability (apart from auto attack) that can apply SoCorruption debuff, but its damage is fixed to a certain ammount and CD removed.

For it to have no CD means it has to do very very little dmg. So you want to take one of 2 attacks unique to ret and nerf the hell out of the dmg just to apply SoV/SoCor stacks? No thanks, I like my CS th eway it is. Sounds like you're just QQing about not using SoV in pvp.

. The debuffs from Corruption are not dispelleable anymore.

I'm sure rogues wish the same thing about their poisons but you wouldn't like that very much would you?

. Judgement of Corruption does damage based on the # of applications and has 100% chance to crit if target is stunned (that could be a talent instead of Seal of comand).

The previous method of downing somoene was to destroy them within a HoJ stun. Again I'm sure you wouldn't like it if a lock got a guaranteed crit on an Immolate or Conflag while you are feared.

. Judgement of different seals actually do different effects depending on wich judgement you use:
. Judgement of wisdom, drains mana from your target back to the paladin.
. Judgement of light reduces spell damage and healing DONE by the target by some ammount
. Judgement of justice slows target down by some ammount (yes it would mean druids could shapeshift out of slow, or others could trinket it, I find that paladins are too hard of a counter for kiters).

Wisdom – there is no class in the game that has an attack that drains mana and does dmg.
Light – you’re asking for the same MS that all the other pvp QQers have been crying for. It’s never going to happen, get over it. Keep in mind that all of the classes with an MS effect also cannot heal themselves.
Justice – Every melee class in the game has a slow to be used as a gap closer. Every other class except for non-feral druids and priests have a slow *that can be dispelled.* Not to mention HoF.

. Judgements would only do damage if you have 5 stacks of Seal of corruption on your target and judging could consume the 5 debuffs(thus no more burst).

So you want to severely gimp a PvE seal for the sake of PvP? What the hell are we supposed to use in raid then? SoC?

This system would actually add some challenge to ret pvp instead of mashing your head on the keyboard (which is what most good players have against ret pallies). You have to choose between mana drain and regaining mana, lowering healing/SP dmg done or slowing your target to be able to catch it. With this you just added minimum 2 more abilities the paladins have to use. So more intelligence needed in pvp (for PVE wisdom would probably become the choice judgement).

If you count only auto attack + CS to apply the stacks, it would probably take the rets about 6 seconds, and 3 GC to apply 5 stacks (assuming weapon speed of 3.5 and assuming 2 auto attacks land + 3 CS) which is alot better than that whooping ~15 seconds that it is right now. Holy and prot paladins can still apply this from auto attacks faster with a 1hander if they really want to and still get the debuff apply from the different judgements.

This kinda looks like combo points, but Blizzard ALREADY made it like combo points but you only get combo points from auto attacks >.<

Tell me what you think.

Seems your entire post was based around PvP, with no regard to PvE mechanics whatsoever. Which is what I simply could have responded with in the first place but you felt I needed to put a fine point on it.

[Prentice]

Light – you’re asking for the same MS that all the other pvp QQers have been crying for. It’s never going to happen, get over it. Keep in mind that all of the classes with an MS effect also cannot heal themselves.

Wrong!!! Three of the five classes that have an MS ability have a healing ability. Warriors, Frost Mages and Shadow Priests. Their heals are situational and relatively weak, but they still have them. Rogues and hunters are the only ones that I can think of that can't self-heal in some way.

[Separate]

No


Heres my argument. Nobody cares what you suggest, not even blizzard. So go bottle your tears and give yourself a nice 5 finger massage. You could have spent your time trying to cure cancer, at least that way you would have known it wouldnt happen.

[Moonias]

Paladins are a defensive hybrid... Shamans are the offensive hybrid... just an fyi

isn't that already what happens?

no paladins are fine on mana efficiency? divine plea etc
no
lol?

What challenge? getting 5 stacks of corruption and then pop wings and stun and watch them die from dot ticks melting their face off?

PS. I like how a new patch JUST came out and people are already trying to fix classes again... just sad

I agree that paladins SHOULD be a defensive hybrid, but that is not where blizzard pushed them. Shamans as you said are more offensive, they have 2 dps trees and 1 healing tree (thus the offensive hybrid). Paladins however cannot be compared in that case because they are a 3-way hybrid right now (dps/healing/tanking). They should be compared alot more to druids in the way they work (also heals/tanks/dps).

1. Yes it already happened, was including it because it is part of the way my idea works that's all...
2. Paladins are fine on mana assuming judgement lands, miss one judgement or get stunned before you can use it (the way things are working now is that instead of just judging at start of rotation you wait probably from after a couple normal hits so you are probably just using your other abilities waiting for stacks, you are using alot of mana this way if you don't judge and if you judge soon you barely do damage).
3. We need a way to do this, and this is a more interesting way to do it than just a plain and simple MS (which they gave to so many classes now...)
4. Seal of command is useless now, in pvp AND pve. And it was this way before, why would it be OP now? plz tell me.
5.You are going back to the idea that some weird people have that we can one shot people in pvp through 1 stun (or could pre 3.2) This is/was false. And the challenge would come from the fact that now you have to actually have to choose which judgement to use instead of just mashing one. Against a healer use the JoL, a caster deeps or hunter JoW, and a kiter JoJ this is alot more interesting to me than just mashing justice all the time.

[soaps]

While i didn't have time to read through all of your suggestions, I just would like to say certain ones like having SoCor crit and stuff, that would be more like the style of a Glyph or Deep Talent.

Applications are dispellable because Blizz wants the diversity in pvp, you have to make a choice on the fly, "does this class have a dispell magic skill?" "is there a dispeller nearby?" "is it worth it to use the dispell, will their dispell target SoV/SoCor first" "Will SoV/SoCor apply fast enough for the dispeller to keep up with it"

Just remember when they are busy dispelling they cant do much else due to the use of their GCD to dispell, at some point they will have to stop if they dont want to run out of mana or feel the need to heal.

Having CS with no CD would cause alot of OOM Ret pallies, I think I like it where it's currently at. Although maybe a glyph to give CS a 30% chance to proc a SoV/SoCor debuff would be a little more along the lines of acceptable. (1-3 chance every 4 seconds is still better then 1-3 chance every white hit)

Thats about as far as I got with this post :/

[Domito]

Didn't read all of it but, I am assuming your complaining cause now you are required to think more about what abilities you use? Maybe I am wrong ???

[Moonias]

For it to have no CD means it has to do very very little dmg. So you want to take one of 2 attacks unique to ret and nerf the hell out of the dmg just to apply SoV/SoCor stacks? No thanks, I like my CS th eway it is. Sounds like you're just QQing about not using SoV in pvp.

Please try to make sense, I didn't ad any numbers, I would need to TEST that for it to work, and any ability with no CD doesn't necessarely have to have no CD, look at mutilate, Mangle, even SS, both does close to the same mechanic than stacking SoV, but no CD.

I'm sure rogues wish the same thing about their poisons but you wouldn't like that very much would you?

Oranges aren't the same as apples, please compare apples with apples... Right now we NEED SoV applications to do dmg, this would be like making the combo points dispellable, not making poisons undispealleable...

The previous method of downing somoene was to destroy them within a HoJ stun. Again I'm sure you wouldn't like it if a lock got a guaranteed crit on an Immolate or Conflag while you are feared.

Same as before, I am NOT talking about locks, the 100% was this way before on command, and it was very situational. Give locks a 1min CD on fear and maybe you can compare. And btw I know what you want to answer, but you don't balance a class around what it can do when THAT specific class is around. Rogues/ret pallies would be strong yes, but even with the old SoCom they weren't top of the teams all time.

Wisdom – there is no class in the game that has an attack that drains mana and does dmg.
Light – you’re asking for the same MS that all the other pvp QQers have been crying for. It’s never going to happen, get over it. Keep in mind that all of the classes with an MS effect also cannot heal themselves.
Justice – Every melee class in the game has a slow to be used as a gap closer. Every other class except for non-feral druids and priests have a slow *that can be dispelled.* Not to mention HoF.

Mana burn from priest still does damage... And anyway, is it because no other class has it that you cannot add it? No other class can throw a freezing trap at a distance and it's still there. Wut's ur point?
Keep in mind that all of the classes with an MS effect also cannot heal themselves. = Read other post after urs some1 already said that. And let's face it ret healing ain't the best healing in game k?
I don't get ur point over justice, the effect now ALREADY can be dispelled via magic, but NOT by effects that breaks slows, this effect is too unique and should be changed to a slow of i dunno maybe 20-30 % that is magic so can be dispelled by anyone, and BTW, Harmstring and Wingclip aint magic either so no dispells...

So you want to severely gimp a PvE seal for the sake of PvP? What the hell are we supposed to use in raid then? SoC?

Again I didn't post any numbers nor said to gimp pve damage, applying SoV faster is a buff to me not a nerf, thin about all the fights where you change target and you loose your stacks and have to wait 15 secs to be at full dmg again? or trash where you can't even apply it...

And btw, yes, my post talks alot about PVP because it IS what caused the nerf. Which was probably *needed* but they did it the wrong way, they should have revised the whole way paladins pvp not just nerf the burst and lower our dps.

[Moonias]

Didn't read all of it but, I am assuming your complaining cause now you are required to think more about what abilities you use? Maybe I am wrong ???

How would I be complaining about that? I am suggesting a way that would imply alot more thinking in pvp, and stay about the same in PVE.

And yes a no CD on CS would imply alot of dumb paladins only spamming CS till they are oom, thats kinda the point, thats why it applies also on normal attacks, you have to actually BALANCE the numbers of CS you do to not get oom but get enough stacks to do some damage. Yes it's more complicated, that is desired.

The only point I could agree with people crying over rets was that it was too simple to play and did not leave enough place for skills. That is why this system implies doing more choices that actually have an influence on the outcome of a pvp battle. If you choose to drain him instead of slowing the target that time for example you might end up being kited.

[shiftynou]

Didn't read all of it but, I am assuming your complaining cause now you are required to think more about what abilities you use? Maybe I am wrong ???

You are wrong. They didn't make the "rotation" any more complex (in pve). They just forced us to hit Crusader Strike more often.