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  1. #1

    Scaling- The boomkin problem

    In 3.0 I was able to get my Boomkin dps up to just under 5k(like 4.9k 5k with any kind of adds to feed starfall). 3.1 I switched to tree mainspec however all gear but my teir was upgraded and i realized my dps had increased marginally as if i had hit a plateu. I played a bit on Rawr and it showed my top dps if full ulduar gear being only a couple hundred dps higher not breaking 5.7k while others in BiS could break 7k. Ok i thought maybe underpowered don't worry eclipse change yay. However i fear our dps will once again plateu and it took me very little to realise why. 1st Natures grace change(i know forever ago I am still pissed) because at that point we didn't have much of a haste cap now we do. However a greater reason then that little pet peeve is the fact that Our dps is dependent on a set damage amplifier that does not scale. We will always get the same amount of crit from Eclipse which do to the natures grace change is weakened as much of the buff is wasted. Now we see that the 30% damage will scale but unfortuantly that means very little of our rotation scales. We are dependant upon a fixed crit/damage increase and will scale horribly until this is changed somehow. The eclipse change just heightened the dps plateau and we will see dps begin to scale horribly. This is what stands in the way of boomkin once again claiming top spots on the meters. So in other words unless blizz changes this soon go kitty even if you sacrifice gear because once you get your new good loot you will be lucky enough to see a dps increase.
    Resto Druids, the best health care system

  2. #2
    Deleted

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    I do not think that boomkins should be on par with pure classes. The fact that we are, is just something i will have to live with

    A major issue with eclipse scaling is that when you're running Lunar Eclipse, you will reach a point where you will statisticly not gain anything from +1% crit, because its so high anyways. So Lunar Eclipse will, would, have this issue in general. However, the Eclipse change DOES help this, because now we will spend a bigger portion of our time doing wrath and solar eclipse instead.

    I dont think its quite as bad as you fear, mate. On an unrelated note, it seems my DPS went up nicely after the patch - its hard to judge though, because people we're a bit "confused" on Northrend Beasts, then we spent way too long on Flame Leviathan and Deconstructor spawned just short of a gazillion adds. We only really did Ignis and Razorscale, and those fights aren't that great to see long time DPS. I was at 5,3k DPS on Ignis, though, not getting in the slag pot but obviously getting a bit of extra damage from starfall on the adds. Deconstructor hard mode is probably a pretty decent gauge for the fight, because after you activate the hard mode, its more or less a constant nuke, which will even out the damage.

    We'll see..

  3. #3

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    I did not intend to sound so dire yes this helped alot plus it allows for us to move more in our rotation(i was doing really well on the meters for Northrend beasts). And i don't think i emphatsized enought that now that we will be using our solar eclipse it will up it a bit however we will run into the same problem as before. And i am fine with being below Pure classes but we will be far behind again in high end guilds(if they have an boomkins they should go kitty to be top dps in the game or at least close to top)by the time the coliseum is over. Luckily I am a tree and feeling the love.
    Resto Druids, the best health care system

  4. #4
    Deleted

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    I disagree - many things can still chance, and Blizzard can tweak our numbers if they see fit. Remember when we all started doing Naxx, and rogues we're quite far behind, with no fix simply because "They wanted to see how it went". Fact is, i am still missing a bunch of neat items before im just *near* BIS from Ulduar, and i am very comperative, right there next to warlock and mages. Heck, i pulled 18,k DPS on a Hodir hard mode (i was quiet lucky with storm clouds, near 100% uptime), where the mages has topped just shy of 17k. This was before 3.2, obviously.

    If i am on par with other casters, and then counting the buff we got now, i dont mind if my damage drops a bit lower compared to others because of scaling. Heck, might even be that this eclipse change is just because of our scaling.

    There is no obvious change we could make to eclipse to make it run better without redesigning it, and eclipse is quite fun as it is.

  5. #5

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    Again i was not calling so much for change and i am fine with where boomkins are at as i can do good dps i was trying to see if others noticed that we would scale slower then other classes due to being dependent on a proc with set numbers.
    Resto Druids, the best health care system

  6. #6
    Deleted

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    The NG change is NOT a nerf. There was a cap already with the old NG, and it was much easier to reach it. While it didn't affect every single of our spells, you still should have a 45% or something crit rate on wrath meaning half your wrathes had it a lot worse before that change.

    Regarding scaling, i haven't run numbers but we still have some very good scaling spells and talents. I personally didn't see much of a change in Ulduar but that's also because a lot of my gear was already lvl 226, and because there isn't really any fight where you can do a pure dps test. That being said, moonkins were in a good situation also on some gimmick fights (Hodir, Vezax) thanks to SF's long cast time or momevement fights (Mimiron p4) thanks to the bonus.

    Also you have to remember that scaling is not something you need consider for the future patch, it's only a legitimate issue on the ongoing patch since Blizzard can turn knobs between patches to compensate for potential lack of scaling.
    (ie basically there's no need to fret overly about our scaling in the next patch when lots of things could change in the meantime)

  7. #7
    Deleted

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Dje
    ... you still should have a 45% or something crit rate on wrath meaning half your wrathes had it a lot worse before that change.
    Wat?

  8. #8
    Deleted

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    Oops, you' re right, i messed up a bit.
    ~20% base + 5% moonkin + 3% iFF + 4% Nature's Majesty + 3% Totem of wrath or equivalent + 3% focalisation if a mage accepts to give it to you + 5% mage/warlock debuff = 40-45%

    So nearer to 2/5th of your wrath encountering the old NG cap if you crit (because whatever realistic amount of haste we had, even with bad gear, any NG effect would be enough to push wrath under 1s). And this doesn't count NG effects from Starfall, MF, or previous SF's, so the numbers would actually be a little higher.
    The new NG situation is :
    - 0% of wrath casts affected when under 400 haste
    - 2/5th of the few wraths used when over 400, but with a quite lower "time spent not casting" loss than previously. I mean, previously i could get down to 0.6s on wrath, and then have to spend 0.4s + latency not doing anything.

    ie i stand by my conclusion that it's a buff. (the reduced haste for wrath also being compensated by the fact that one crit hastes 3 wrath casts)

  9. #9

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    The reason our dps was low in this ulduar was mainly due to the so horribly itemized gear, that makes youre eyes bleed and the combination of eclipse dependancy.
    Due to the large amount of movement in ulduar we were literally fucked. If you did manage to get the desired eclipse, you usually had to move which resulted in a huuuge dps loss.

    fyi, the natures grace change was actually a buff

  10. #10
    Deleted

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Dje
    ~20% base + 5% moonkin + 3% iFF + 4% Nature's Majesty + 3% Totem of wrath or equivalent + 3% focalisation if a mage accepts to give it to you + 5% mage/warlock debuff = 40-45%
    Totem of wrath does not stack with moonkin aura. You will get the SP from Totem of Wrath, but the +5% crit gained from Moonkin Aura overwrites the +3 from Totem of Wrath. Also, you can't count on mages giving you focus magic (i can't get it, even though i tried).

    So in reality, you are looking at:
    20% base + 5% moonkin + 3% iFF/misery + 4% Nature's Majesty + 5% mage/warlock debuff = 37%. I will grant you, though, that my crit raidbuffed is around 23,8%, so my total crit chance with wrath would be 40,8%.

    In any case, Nature's Grace was indeed a buff - you can usually get off two wraths in one Nature's Grace, or even two starfires. The old effect consumed the NG effect.

  11. #11
    Deleted

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    Wrong, they do stack. Moonkin aura is a crit aura buff for the whole raid. ToW is a crit debuff aura on all mobs in range of the totem. They belong to different categories and do stack.

  12. #12

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    I was under the impression Natures grace used to reduce the GCD by .5secs also and yes the dps loss do to movement was great but has been reduced alot by rolling Eclipse so i guess we will have to see.
    Resto Druids, the best health care system

  13. #13
    Deleted

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    It did reduce the dps, but not below 1s. With a 1.5s base cast, 0.5s reduction, any haste you had went to waste on crits.

  14. #14

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    doomchken, you seem to be predicting that boomkins will scale badly simply because of interpreted effects of increased haste / crit. Unless you actually do the numbers to predict our DPS with extra gear (beyond what's available) and compare that to other classes you really can't say how well we will or won't scale. To just look at the abilities and their effects without doing the math is equivalent to me saying that resto druids will shit healers because we're also hitting our haste soft cap without any trouble, when clearly this isn't the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    in soviet russia, mods troll you!

  15. #15
    Deleted

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Dje
    Wrong, they do stack. Moonkin aura is a crit aura buff for the whole raid. ToW is a crit debuff aura on all mobs in range of the totem. They belong to different categories and do stack.
    In that case, then it doesn't stack with the mage/warlock counterpart. Same difference, dude.


  16. #16
    Deleted

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    No, all those i listed belong to different categories and as such stack with each other :
    - 3% iFF and 4% from Nature's Majesty: personal crit gain through talents, stacks with everything
    - 3% focalisation : individual buff, stacks with everything
    - 5% moonkin form/elemental oath : spell critical chance buff
    - 3% Totem of Wrath/Heart of the Crusader/Master Poisonner : crit chance taken debuff on a mob
    - 5% Improved Shadow Bolt/Improved Scorch/Winter's Chill : spell crit chance taken debuff

    Same line doesn't stack, different line does stack.

  17. #17

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    In that case, then it doesn't stack with the mage/warlock counterpart. Same difference, dude.
    ToW is "3% all crit debuff", Scorch is "5% spell crit debuff". That's the diffference and that's why they do stack.

  18. #18
    Deleted

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    Are you absolutely certain? Cause i am not convinced:

    Totem of Wrath - http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=30708
    Apply Stat Aura (%): Mod Attacker Spell Crit Chance
    Value: 3
    Radius: 40 yards

    Improved Shadow Bolt - http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=17800
    Apply Aura: Mod Attacker Spell Crit Chance (126)
    Value: 5

    The effect is the same: Mod Attacker Spell Crit Chance. The only difference is that totem of wrath acts as an aura, but it alters the same stat on both.

  19. #19
    Deleted

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    I haven't tested it out, but all sites, blizzard posts from when they changed the buff/debuff system and such indicate ToW to increase critical chance for all attacks and not only spells (the old version did offer 3% spell crit and 3% spell hit if i remember corrrectly).
    I've tried looking at the spells on wowhead and didn't find anything conclusive, but since it triggers different effects and some old spells don't get erased, i don't think that this particular spell really proves anything.

    You can look at MMO's raid composition tool for example, ToW is listed under crit chance debuff while ISB is under spell critical chance debuff.

  20. #20

    Re: Scaling- The boomkin problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Qieth
    Are you absolutely certain? Cause i am not convinced
    Use the MMO-Champion Raid Composition Calculator: http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/

    This shows pretty clearly which buffs stack and which buffs don't - this data was taken from Blizzard posting the exact combinations back when 3.0 was released (prior to wrath).

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    in soviet russia, mods troll you!

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