Destruction warlocks and haste.

[Maelhoof]

Hello, i have been stacking haste on my destruction lock as much as possible cause its hit>spellpwr>haste>crit, currently im sitting at 2504 spellpower 625haste and 21.3% crit, i was wondering if there ever is a point that i should stop looking for haste and get some crits, or is there no such thing as having to much haste?

ps: no trolling or qq u suck etc plx just serious replies

[the445566]

too much haste is when your casts are faster then the GCD where it then becomes useless to have that much haste. With your stats id say go for more SP then sit around 600 haste without your spellstone. And 20% crit unbuffed is enough until you get more BiS

[Jona]

As a destro lock, you shouldn't be using spellstone, imo. I won't argue the point, though.

Haste is a better stat than spellpower (even with the 3.2 changes that devalue haste and crit). The amount of haste you've got is fine. The "haste cap," as someone else already said, is when casting is less than 1 second (global cooldown). Keep in mind also that if your haste is too high, you won't benefit from haste pots, bloodlust, or other buffs as much, which can be a big problem. To benefit from them more, having haste somewhere between 500-600 is about where you should be; if you have a good haste trinket (10m Auriaya comes to mind, or Embrace of the Spider from 10 Naxx), you can probably settle comfortably around 500-600 and still benefit fine from other procs and abilities.

So, don't gem for haste at this point. I'd say go for spellpower wherever possible, because it will improve your damage output regardless of other influences. In other words, if you have haste enchant, your trinket procs, and you've got the bloodlust/heroism buff, you may not be able to cast any faster than you would have without the haste enchant, in which case you would get better dps output from a spellpower enchant instead of the haste one. If you're deciding on a yellow gem, hit > haste > crit is the priority, unless your haste is just way the hell up there.

[Kelpie]

As a destro lock, you shouldn't be using spellstone, imo. I won't argue the point, though.

Spellstone is always better than firestone..always.

Haste is a better stat than spellpower (even with the 3.2 changes that devalue haste and crit)

..um.. What? Typo anyone?

[Gibs]

Spellstone is always better than firestone..always.

For destro Firestone is better by far. Its been shown in Theory crafting and in practice. Firestone is the way to go if Destro.

[Rege]

For destro Firestone is better by far. Its been shown in Theory crafting and in practice. Firestone is the way to go if Destro.

WRONG.

Please research before you post nonsense.

[tatertot]

Spelstone haste is nice, but it doesn't out do the DD increase from using a fire stone. Where's your testing/proof that spellstone is better for destro? If its out there, then I'd like to see your research. Elitist jerks might not always be right, but the dps comparison thread has the highest dps builds listed and destro uses firestone in the sim. There is also a separate destro thread that comes to the same conclusion that firestone is better. Even the sticky at the top of this forum says to go firestone.

[nort]

stop trolling with the spellstone nonesence pls

[Impurath]

Could someone give me a link where it clearly says that spellstone is better for a deep destro lock?

To the op: Imo 500-600 haste is enough because the moonkin buff and the spellhaste totem will improve your haste even more so sitting at over 600 haste is wasted when BL/Heroism is popped up. Go for spellpower.

[Neogeta]

warlock=Warlock_T8_00_13_58
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...31051335230351
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=tender_shoveltusk_steak/fire_stone/fel_armor/summon_pet,imp
actions+=/curse_of_doom,time_to_die>=90/immolate/conflagrate/chaos_bolt/incinerate/life_tap
Warlock_T8_Hit_Gear.simcraft
glyph_conflagrate=1
glyph_incinerate=1
glyph_immolate=1

Taken from Elitest Jerks forums which says firestone should be used with destruction. Check the post out for yourself at: http://elitistjerks.com/f80/t48311-s...ost_3_1_specs/

[Maelhoof]

Tanx for the good comment guys, im sitting on 625 haste now with every slot filled with spellpower or spellpower/spirit, same for my enchants and im using firestone ofc since i dont need the haste anymore and crit is more welcome and the nice damage boost for straight spells.

[rabbimojo]

Another way to look at the answer:
You've got 'too much' haste when you've got more than you have crit.
For destro, from 0 to x% crit is roughly the same dps gain as from 0 to x% haste, ignoring all buffs and the like.
Although not all of your damage can crit, crits scale slightly faster than 1% per 1%, with 0% crit as a base. Similarly, all of your spells benefit from haste, but it scales more obviously.

The essential reason that haste scales so well relative to crit is because we get so much free crit. There are multiple +crit% talents, but they stack additively. Haste talents/effects tend towards stacking multiplicatively.

So, since you're not likely to actually get close to the point that your raid haste exceeds your raid crit rate in the grand scheme, haste > crit.

To whomever felt like pointing out that haste is superior to spellpower.. That is a comment which needs many heavy caveats to apply; don't throw it around lightly. We don't need more misinformed players running around.

[lollero]

any destro spec with master conjuror = spellstone
any destro spec without master conjuror = firestone

[Jona]

This post is so filled with misinformation, it's depressing. No wonder I see warlocks in gear from 25 Ulduar get out-dps'd by my pitiful Naxx gear.

For Destruction, the Firestone is the stone to use. Period. Haste is more important than crit, yes, but the haste benefit is paltry compared to the 1% damage increase on all direct damage spells. I spent two hours theorycrafting today (simcraft / math / hypothetical / real tests). The results clearly show Firestone to provide higher damage output than spellstone. Bottom line. Now, as I said already, I'm not arguing the point further; you can disagree all you want, but if you do, you are mentally retarded, mathematically incorrect, and most likely the guy left wondering why he's doing 3k dps in 25 Patchwerk fights.

Let me point out something to keep in mind regarding how you value the haste stat. Trinkets and buffs. Bloodlist/heroism, haste pots, and haste-on-proc trinkets all affect how valuable haste is. If you're running with Embrace of the Spider, the Sundial of the Exiled is actually going to be better for you because you receive fewer spellpower buffs than haste buffs in a raid. Additionally, at 600+ haste, you're going to hit GCD when these procs/buffs coincide, making your actual dps (high as it may be) lower than it could be if you were to replace a certain amount of haste with spellpower. In other words, at 600 haste, you need to go exclusively for spellpower, as it's about 1.75 times (give or take) more valuable at that point, particularly if you have a haste trinket. You should sit comfortably around 500 haste with a haste trinket, 550 at most without.

Something that many folks don't understand: stat weight variance. As you gain more haste, spellpower becomes more useful; as you gain more spellpower, haste becomes more useful. Crit will always be less valuable than either haste or spellpower (unless you have 0 crit, but the crit that comes with gear keeps you at a decent amount), and this is for two primary reasons: (a) talent points and (b) the number of crit points you must have equates to a lower percentage crit compared to other stats. If you're at 600 haste, you need to aim for spellpower more than anything -- it's a gear upgrade to lose haste in place of spellpower. Conversely, if you're at 250 haste, you're better off sacrificing a proportionate amount of spellpower for haste (based on what those numbers are -- if you want the exact number, you'll have to throw your current gear values into a simulator).

In my current gear, Spellpower is actually a better stat than haste for me, because my SP is around 2k (unbuffed, w/o Fel Armor) and my haste is nearly 500 (493 or something like that). The ratio favors spellpower over haste, making spellpower a more valuable stat in that gear. (Keep in mind, however, that this ratio may change drastically if I were to replace my Embrace of the Spider trinket, which is a haste-buff-on-prof trinket. Replacing it with Dying Curse or Illustration of the Dragon Soul, for example, would probably make haste a better stat once again, if slightly.)

[Gandonar]

This post is so filled with misinformation, it's depressing. No wonder I see warlocks in gear from 25 Ulduar get out-dps'd by my pitiful Naxx gear.

For Destruction, the Firestone is the stone to use. Period. Haste is more important than crit, yes, but the haste benefit is paltry compared to the 1% damage increase on all direct damage spells. I spent two hours theorycrafting today (simcraft / math / hypothetical / real tests). The results clearly show Firestone to provide higher damage output than spellstone. Bottom line. Now, as I said already, I'm not arguing the point further; you can disagree all you want, but if you do, you are mentally retarded, mathematically incorrect, and most likely the guy left wondering why he's doing 3k dps in 25 Patchwerk fights.

Let me point out something to keep in mind regarding how you value the haste stat. Trinkets and buffs. Bloodlist/heroism, haste pots, and haste-on-proc trinkets all affect how valuable haste is. If you're running with Embrace of the Spider, the Sundial of the Exiled is actually going to be better for you because you receive fewer spellpower buffs than haste buffs in a raid. Additionally, at 600+ haste, you're going to hit GCD when these procs/buffs coincide, making your actual dps (high as it may be) lower than it could be if you were to replace a certain amount of haste with spellpower. In other words, at 600 haste, you need to go exclusively for spellpower, as it's about 1.75 times (give or take) more valuable at that point, particularly if you have a haste trinket. You should sit comfortably around 500 haste with a haste trinket, 550 at most without.

Something that many folks don't understand: stat weight variance. As you gain more haste, spellpower becomes more useful; as you gain more spellpower, haste becomes more useful. Crit will always be less valuable than either haste or spellpower (unless you have 0 crit, but the crit that comes with gear keeps you at a decent amount), and this is for two primary reasons: (a) talent points and (b) the number of crit points you must have equates to a lower percentage crit compared to other stats. If you're at 600 haste, you need to aim for spellpower more than anything -- it's a gear upgrade to lose haste in place of spellpower. Conversely, if you're at 250 haste, you're better off sacrificing a proportionate amount of spellpower for haste (based on what those numbers are -- if you want the exact number, you'll have to throw your current gear values into a simulator).

In my current gear, Spellpower is actually a better stat than haste for me, because my SP is around 2k (unbuffed, w/o Fel Armor) and my haste is nearly 500 (493 or something like that). The ratio favors spellpower over haste, making spellpower a more valuable stat in that gear. (Keep in mind, however, that this ratio may change drastically if I were to replace my Embrace of the Spider trinket, which is a haste-buff-on-prof trinket. Replacing it with Dying Curse or Illustration of the Dragon Soul, for example, would probably make haste a better stat once again, if slightly.)

Finally some sense. well written Jona and absolutely correct

[Cvarto]

Jona, your point is well argued. However, there are currently multiple ways to successfully gear a destruction warlock due to the variability of fights that one will encounter. A lot of gearing a destruction warlock is about playstyle.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...moore&n=Gwills
(Please note Gwills usually does not run with Embrace of the Spider, he must have traded it in for a particular fight.)

Please note that Gwills has 217 haste rating and generally runs with one haste proc trinket. He is one of the top three (horde side) warlocks on my server, one of the most populated servers in the world. Also take note of his 592 crit rating. This works for him for two reasons.

His spells hit hard. Many theorycrafters for warlocks say they can't tell much of a difference between 20% crit and 23% crit in a 25 man group. While in a 25 man raid, you will stop crit a great deal with 20% crit rating, there is indeed a clear and much more reliable chance to crit with 23% chance.

He doesn't have to Life Tap very often. The more haste you have, the faster you cast spells, the faster you run out of mana. The 475 spirit that Gwills receives from his gear are a large boost to the mana gained from his Life Tap (1 spirit = 3 more mana via Life Tap) and a nice chunk of that becomes spell power via Fel Armor (and 20% more with Glyph of Life Tap). With less spirit, you have to Life Tap more and stop attacking the boss to do so.


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...moore&n=Cuarto

Personally, I don't like trinkets with haste procs. They throw off my Life Tap timings because I lose mana more quickly than I was before the boost to casting speed. For this reason, I much prefer trinkets with spell power procs (the Conflagrate crits when over 4000 spell power, I must admit, are fun to watch). Ideally, I try to remain as close to 15% haste as possible without going over or throwing off my gear just for some haste boost.

Why 15%? I assume that I run 25 mans with a casting shammy who will have Wrath of Air totem (5% casting speed boost) to put my haste at 20%. When Backdraft procs, my casting speed is increased by 30%, to 50% total, and when Bloodlust is popped, my casting speed also reaches 50% total haste, and I see no reason to go over 50% casting speed. Especially because GCD spells (Life Tap, Soulshatter, Curse of Doom, Curse of Affliction, Conflagrate) receive no further benefit past 50%. Therefore, in my opinion, haste significantly loses its worth after 491 haste rating (with Wrath of Air).

I don't mind putting in a green or purple gem with spirit because of the extra mana from Life Tap, and extra spell power via Fel Armor and Life Tap glyph, and I will do so for any socket bonus besides a stamina or intellect one.

I like to stay between 21 and 22% crit so that raid buffed (with Boomkin) I will be just barely over 33% crit, but when I get gear with more crit I won't complain. In both red and yellow sockets I like to gem for crit/sp gems because I DO need more crit. I'm not happy with my current uptime of Pyroclasm. Instead of doing a +20 crit gem and a +23 spell power gem, I like the two +10 crit +12 spell power gems (<3 the 1 extra spell power).

[Kamos]

Jona, your point is well argued. However, there are currently multiple ways to successfully gear a destruction warlock due to the variability of fights that one will encounter. A lot of gearing a destruction warlock is about playstyle.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...moore&n=Gwills
(Please note Gwills usually does not run with Embrace of the Spider, he must have traded it in for a particular fight.)

Please note that Gwills has 217 haste rating and generally runs with one haste proc trinket. He is one of the top three (horde side) warlocks on my server, one of the most populated servers in the world. Also take note of his 592 crit rating. This works for him for two reasons.

His spells hit hard. Many theorycrafters for warlocks say they can't tell much of a difference between 20% crit and 23% crit in a 25 man group. While in a 25 man raid, you will stop crit a great deal with 20% crit rating, there is indeed a clear and much more reliable chance to crit with 23% chance.

He doesn't have to Life Tap very often. The more haste you have, the faster you cast spells, the faster you run out of mana. The 475 spirit that Gwills receives from his gear are a large boost to the mana gained from his Life Tap (1 spirit = 3 more mana via Life Tap) and a nice chunk of that becomes spell power via Fel Armor (and 20% more with Glyph of Life Tap). With less spirit, you have to Life Tap more and stop attacking the boss to do so.


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...moore&n=Cuarto

Personally, I don't like trinkets with haste procs. They throw off my Life Tap timings because I lose mana more quickly than I was before the boost to casting speed. For this reason, I much prefer trinkets with spell power procs (the Conflagrate crits when over 4000 spell power, I must admit, are fun to watch). Ideally, I try to remain as close to 15% haste as possible without going over or throwing off my gear just for some haste boost.

Why 15%? I assume that I run 25 mans with a casting shammy who will have Wrath of Air totem (5% casting speed boost) to put my haste at 20%. When Backdraft procs, my casting speed is increased by 30%, to 50% total, and when Bloodlust is popped, my casting speed also reaches 50% total haste, and I see no reason to go over 50% casting speed. Especially because GCD spells (Life Tap, Soulshatter, Curse of Doom, Curse of Affliction, Conflagrate) receive no further benefit past 50%. Therefore, in my opinion, haste significantly loses its worth after 491 haste rating (with Wrath of Air).

I don't mind putting in a green or purple gem with spirit because of the extra mana from Life Tap, and extra spell power via Fel Armor and Life Tap glyph, and I will do so for any socket bonus besides a stamina or intellect one.

I like to stay between 21 and 22% crit so that raid buffed (with Boomkin) I will be just barely over 33% crit, but when I get gear with more crit I won't complain. In both red and yellow sockets I like to gem for crit/sp gems because I DO need more crit. I'm not happy with my current uptime of Pyroclasm. Instead of doing a +20 crit gem and a +23 spell power gem, I like the two +10 crit +12 spell power gems (<3 the 1 extra spell power).

A perfectly well thought out, coherant and informative post

.. that will get shot down by the masses because you don't adhere to "the best"

[Cvarto]

A perfectly well thought out, coherant and informative post

.. that will get shot down by the masses because you don't adhere to "the best"

Hopefully each warlock will figure out the way to gear that is best for their playstyle to maximize their raid utility, similar to the way Gwills and I have.

Readers please note that there is, in fact, a "playstyle" for destruction warlocks. There is a BOOM...BOOM...BOOM and a boomboomboom and a middle between the two.

[Jona]

Jona, your point is well argued. However, there are currently multiple ways to successfully gear a destruction warlock due to the variability of fights that one will encounter. A lot of gearing a destruction warlock is about playstyle.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...moore&n=Gwills
(Please note Gwills usually does not run with Embrace of the Spider, he must have traded it in for a particular fight.)

Please note that Gwills has 217 haste rating and generally runs with one haste proc trinket. He is one of the top three (horde side) warlocks on my server, one of the most populated servers in the world. Also take note of his 592 crit rating. This works for him for two reasons.

His spells hit hard. Many theorycrafters for warlocks say they can't tell much of a difference between 20% crit and 23% crit in a 25 man group. While in a 25 man raid, you will stop crit a great deal with 20% crit rating, there is indeed a clear and much more reliable chance to crit with 23% chance.

He doesn't have to Life Tap very often. The more haste you have, the faster you cast spells, the faster you run out of mana. The 475 spirit that Gwills receives from his gear are a large boost to the mana gained from his Life Tap (1 spirit = 3 more mana via Life Tap) and a nice chunk of that becomes spell power via Fel Armor (and 20% more with Glyph of Life Tap). With less spirit, you have to Life Tap more and stop attacking the boss to do so.


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...moore&n=Cuarto

Personally, I don't like trinkets with haste procs. They throw off my Life Tap timings because I lose mana more quickly than I was before the boost to casting speed. For this reason, I much prefer trinkets with spell power procs (the Conflagrate crits when over 4000 spell power, I must admit, are fun to watch). Ideally, I try to remain as close to 15% haste as possible without going over or throwing off my gear just for some haste boost.

Why 15%? I assume that I run 25 mans with a casting shammy who will have Wrath of Air totem (5% casting speed boost) to put my haste at 20%. When Backdraft procs, my casting speed is increased by 30%, to 50% total, and when Bloodlust is popped, my casting speed also reaches 50% total haste, and I see no reason to go over 50% casting speed. Especially because GCD spells (Life Tap, Soulshatter, Curse of Doom, Curse of Affliction, Conflagrate) receive no further benefit past 50%. Therefore, in my opinion, haste significantly loses its worth after 491 haste rating (with Wrath of Air).

I don't mind putting in a green or purple gem with spirit because of the extra mana from Life Tap, and extra spell power via Fel Armor and Life Tap glyph, and I will do so for any socket bonus besides a stamina or intellect one.

I like to stay between 21 and 22% crit so that raid buffed (with Boomkin) I will be just barely over 33% crit, but when I get gear with more crit I won't complain. In both red and yellow sockets I like to gem for crit/sp gems because I DO need more crit. I'm not happy with my current uptime of Pyroclasm. Instead of doing a +20 crit gem and a +23 spell power gem, I like the two +10 crit +12 spell power gems (<3 the 1 extra spell power).

Point well taken. But basically, this Warlock, Gwillis, is mimicking a Fire Mage. That's fine if you have a shit ton of spellpower and crit -- and if you're okay being royally fucked by rng like Fire Mages.

Actually, looking at his gear, he's got two haste trinkets on: Elemental Focus Stone and Embrace of the Spider. I think this is evidence that, despite his stacking crit, he realizes the value of haste. The haste trinkets here are very important to compensate for the low haste rating on his gear, since he opted for crit instead.

Anyway, to each his own, but it's too bad I'm not on the same server as this gentleman to see whose actual raid dps comes out on top. I don't intend to sound arrogant (mostly curious), but the complexity of WoW can be broken down into several categories of concepts that are all mathematically based (including awareness of outside factors such as movement, for example). After lots of number crunching, my in-game results match up surprisingly well with my paperwork. ;-)

[Cvarto]

After lots of number crunching

Bah, there's multiple ways to find one precisely accurate derivative.