PvP - Holy Paladins in S7

[Tostibakker]

Hey

As we all know Prot/Holy Paladins are being nerfed. There is no doubt that it is deserved nerf, however the Holy tree is not that great for pvp and there have been 0 announcements of potential changes to make it better in comparison of Prot/Holy and the other healing classes in pvp.

First I'd like to show the advantages of Holy compared to Prot and visa versa.

Holy

Instant heal
More mobile
Harder to interrupt
Low healing of Flash of Light and Holy Light
Less HP
Limited mana
Less defensive
No CC or interrupts
Less offensive than other healers
Low healing from FoL hot
Lower SP
Beacon is high on mana cost and easy to dispell

Prot

No instant heal
Less mobile
Easier to interrupt
High amount of HP
High amount of healing
High Flash of Light HoT giving you time for other things
Good amount of CC / silences
Highly defensive
Unlimited mana
Alot of SP
More offensive

Holy Paladins do not have the CC of druids and do not have the burst that a disc priest could do and unlike the other healers paladins are always forced to spam heal unlike druids / priests and even shamans due earthshield / riptide.

Anyways you might disagree with me on some points, the question is Do you think Holy should be buffed in PvP ?

[nwo]

Anyways you might disagree with me on some points, the question is Do you think Holy should be buffed in PvP ?

Yes, of course. Holy is terrible for PVP because it has the lowest utility and survivability of all the other paladin specs and it needs to be buffed. This has been brought up and discussed many times now.

[Evilhealz]

im glad im not the only one here. Im a little concerned with paladins in arena. I think the heals are ok, im just worried about the offensiveness of the holy tree. In 2's i feel like im not doing anything but standing there, judging and healing. Since our mana nerf, i cant seem to be as offensive with holy shock and exorcism.

Im so thankful prot got nerfed and im actually ashamed that i used the prot spec to progress in the 2v2 bracket.

[Tostibakker]

im glad im not the only one here. Im a little concerned with paladins in arena. I think the heals are ok, im just worried about the offensiveness of the holy tree. In 2's i feel like im not doing anything but standing there, judging and healing. Since our mana nerf, i cant seem to be as offensive with holy shock and exorcism.

Im so thankful prot got nerfed and im actually ashamed that i used the prot spec to progress in the 2v2 bracket.

The healing is fine I agree, only thing that bothers me when you are playing against a team with a MS effect that you rarely can stop casting unlike other healers. Have been playing as holy/prot a long time this season but after the holy nerfs the progress in rating got stuck and I am also guilty ! :-[

Anyways the problem with Holy Paladins offensive utility is that they don't have as much ranged attacks as the others, what I mean is this:

Druid - Wrath / Moonfire / Starfall / Insect Swarm

Priest - Mind Blast / Mana Burn / Smite / Devouring Plague / Shadow word of death / Shadow word of Pain / Holy Fire

Shaman - Lightning bolt / Chain Lightning / Lava burst

Paladins - Holy Shock (20yd range) / Shield of the Righteous / Judgement / Exorcism (15 sec cd)

Only holy shock does a fair amount of damage, but as holy it is also a spell that we can't always use offensively because you need it to keep yourself up. Judgements and Shield of the Righteous hit fairly low and you need to be in close range to use SotR aswell as stun and Holy Shock, while other healers don't have this problem and are therefor less easier to be mana burned or cced.

And CC

Druid - Endless cyclones / Bash
Priest - Fear
Shaman - Hex
Paladin - 6 second stun

Priest cc might not be that strong if you think about it, but they make up for that if you see their offensive abilities. And that 6 second stun is probably reduced by talents and it is simply not enough to create any real pressure.

Interrupts

Druid - Can easily use Cyclone as an interrupt.
Priest - No real interrupts
Shaman - Earth Shock
Paladin - None

Edit: Might have forgotten some stuff, but that doesn't matter you should get the point ;D Anyways is it just me that thinks everything is focussed on retribution / protection nowadays? Every blue post something about retri burst and 90% of the topics?

[shockpally]

Just like in S1-S4 Paladin started out ok and finished dead last by S4. As the season progresses and teams have access to better gear (more resilience) there is more preasure to get rid of "The Healer" first. So basically make the paladin bubble then kill them after you dispell it or just wait out the 12 sec.

With basically no offensive punch, Holy's infamous Lack of DPS. Rapidly diminishing survivability ala mass dispell and shattering throw. Diminished thoughput with more classes haveing a MS effect they become less viable as the seasons go on.

The FoL hot is just weak.
Beacon is a waste of mana.
No more fast HL since the infusion nerf.
OOMing from mana burns and diminished Mana pool since Divine intellect nerf.
Less mana returned from crits from the Illumination nerf.
No longer able to spam their largest heal when facing some of the still overpowered DPS teams.

The list goes on. These are just the more pointy bits.

[nwo]

Anyways is it just me that thinks everything is focussed on retribution / protection nowadays? Every blue post something about retri burst and 90% of the topics?

Ret pallies are not a burst class anymore. It's not all about prot and ret. It used to be mostly all about ret (nerfs) but now holy and prot have finally gotten nerfs of their own. Holy needed to be nerfed in PVE, but it still needs a lot of buffs for PVP.

[Whoopzz]

Paladins are the worst balanced class in the games history. I suggest rerolling a Druid or Priest if you're going to be doing some hard core PvP. Our class is on a constant roller coaster of balancing blunders.

[Gunjniir]

Paladins are the worst balanced class in the games history. I suggest rerolling a Druid or Priest if you're going to be doing some hard core PvP. Our class is on a constant roller coaster of balancing blunders.

You said it, buddy. These days you have to be a bit of a fanboy of the paladin class or have all your achivements/earned HKs on your pally to not want to desire to reroll. Sure, other classes have their stigmas, but none from what I have been able to tell over the years have endured the clumsy delta that has been our 'balancing' act.

I mean... I'm like 15k away from the 100k HK mark, a goal I've wanted for a long time, as well as battle master... but I'm already leveling a mage. Sure, it's a pure class, but it's just hard to tell when the pally nerfs will stop, or if blizz has any intention of fixing holy.

I find holy to be a joke... bubble is pretty worthless these days...you just drag out the inevitable for 12s (in the off chance that it's not dispelled) and stun has rarely actually made or broken a pvp encounter. When a MS effect is applied, you have to double your healing (ergo, mana output) and your target is super susceptible to burst damage if you slip up for even a second. We're less mobile purely based on the fact that in many cases if we aren't sitting there spamming, our target will be killed easily. Which makes us just as susceptible to CC effects and mana burns...which are just devastating. Oh right, "just hump a pillar" right? yeah, that sounds great... pillar humping... PVP(illar)? Sorry but a class that revolves around use of line of sight mechanics and terrain design is just mentally fucking retarded. Sure, there are pallies who can take holy to a high rating, and that's great. But sorry, I'm just not a fanboy. Trust me, I've tried it with over 900 resil... any interrupt and you may as well be wearing a suit made out of wet paper meche'

And have you LOOKED at the holy tree? So many worthless talents that hardly anyone touches....increases resistance by 30% if you cleanse?? Yet it's been like what... not a month since SoCommand went into the shitter, and it gets a buff? (Although it's still completely worthless in PVP, so at the end of the day it's still swirling in the crapper)

I better stop typing, I'm just getting pissed off, and I think you all get the point ;p /grumbles and levels the mage some more

[Tullkas]

agree ofc. just re-speced / re-gemed back to holy to get ready for upcomming season and ouch its so painfull to heal as deep holy in any form of PvP.

the lack of offensive utility and crappy survivability really makes me cry...

sure there are paladins with this spec very high, but that play style is just unacceptable for me. Paladin shouldnt run all the time, hide and pillar jump like some coward... omg we have plate and shield we should be closer to fight...

how come that priest can take more beating then us and play much more offensive.... I dont get this blizzard vision.

[Tostibakker]

Paladins are the worst balanced class in the games history. I suggest rerolling a Druid or Priest if you're going to be doing some hard core PvP. Our class is on a constant roller coaster of balancing blunders.

You said it, buddy. These days you have to be a bit of a fanboy of the paladin class or have all your achivements/earned HKs on your pally to not want to desire to reroll. Sure, other classes have their stigmas, but none from what I have been able to tell over the years have endured the clumsy delta that has been our 'balancing' act.

I mean... I'm like 15k away from the 100k HK mark, a goal I've wanted for a long time, as well as battle master... but I'm already leveling a mage. Sure, it's a pure class, but it's just hard to tell when the pally nerfs will stop, or if blizz has any intention of fixing holy.

I find holy to be a joke... bubble is pretty worthless these days...you just drag out the inevitable for 12s (in the off chance that it's not dispelled) and stun has rarely actually made or broken a pvp encounter. When a MS effect is applied, you have to double your healing (ergo, mana output) and your target is super susceptible to burst damage if you slip up for even a second. We're less mobile purely based on the fact that in many cases if we aren't sitting there spamming, our target will be killed easily. Which makes us just as susceptible to CC effects and mana burns...which are just devastating. Oh right, "just hump a pillar" right? yeah, that sounds great... pillar humping... PVP(illar)? Sorry but a class that revolves around use of line of sight mechanics and terrain design is just mentally fucking retarded. Sure, there are pallies who can take holy to a high rating, and that's great. But sorry, I'm just not a fanboy. Trust me, I've tried it with over 900 resil... any interrupt and you may as well be wearing a suit made out of wet paper meche'

And have you LOOKED at the holy tree? So many worthless talents that hardly anyone touches....increases resistance by 30% if you cleanse?? Yet it's been like what... not a month since SoCommand went into the shitter, and it gets a buff? (Although it's still completely worthless in PVP, so at the end of the day it's still swirling in the crapper)

I better stop typing, I'm just getting pissed off, and I think you all get the point ;p /grumbles and levels the mage some more

I do have all of my achievements on my Paladin and such. But leveling a druid or a priest and getting the pvp gear again :-\

agree ofc. just re-speced / re-gemed back to holy to get ready for upcomming season and ouch its so painfull to heal as deep holy in any form of PvP.

the lack of offensive utility and crappy survivability really makes me cry...

sure there are paladins with this spec very high, but that play style is just unacceptable for me. Paladin shouldnt run all the time, hide and pillar jump like some coward... omg we have plate and shield we should be closer to fight...

how come that priest can take more beating then us and play much more offensive.... I dont get this blizzard vision.

Shouldn't Holy Paladins have gotten a redesign in Wotlk? I remember Blizzard introducing the spell Hand of Purity which was a weak Prayer of Mending, but a blue post stated it was just to say: "Yes we do think paladins need a diffrent healing mechanic".

Also Paladins have no AoE healing effects (beside double healing from beacon), shouldn't their Flash of Light / Holy Light be stronger than Lesser Healing Wave, Healing Wave, Flash Heal and Greater Heal for example? I always thought they were ment as powerfull single target healers.

Any ideas to make improvements to holy paladins ? Perhaps the problem is not only in the Holy tree, but also in the base abilities that we have?

[Ronark]

Perhaps the problem is not only in the Holy tree, but also in the base abilities that we have?

Yeah we've only been saying that for, what, 5 years now?

[Tostibakker]

Yeah we've only been saying that for, what, 5 years now?

True

And have you LOOKED at the holy tree? So many worthless talents that hardly anyone touches....increases resistance by 30% if you cleanse?? Yet it's been like what... not a month since SoCommand went into the shitter, and it gets a buff? (Although it's still completely worthless in PVP, so at the end of the day it's still swirling in the crapper)

The resistance is actually worse then you think. It's a 30% chance on cleanse to place the buff and then you receive a 30% additional spell resistance! So basicly a chance for a chance.