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  1. #21

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    I think class homogenisation was a bad ideea.

    The reason is that even if all the classes will be 90% similar guilds will still make a rooster to try an get every single class and spec in the raid.

    Why? Because you never know when they will make a boss where a class is better then others.

    Spriest-Thorim hm
    Rogue - Yog+0
    paladin/priests-> bosses that hit more then the tanks hp

    And so forth.

    Personally a better way to do the bring the player and not the class would of been to actually remove boss abilities where you MUST have a class.

    -Leotheras the blind (needed lock)
    -ilidan needed warrior

    etc

  2. #22

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    - Shadow Priests are potentially one of the highest damage dealers for Freya 3-Elders.
    - Shadow Priests, as long as your raid isn't stacking 10 affliction locks, are great for Yogg.
    - Shadow Priests make Thorim hardmode much easier (yeah, you can get your healing priests to get some hit and gear up and spec right for Mind Controlling, but in my experience, it's almost always much easier to get the Shadow Priest to Mind Control whenever it's needed).
    - Shadow Priests have INSANE damage on General Vezzax, especially hardmode.
    - ALL caster damage is insane on Hodir hardmode. Shadow Priests might not be pushing the top, but you're glad to have all the casters you can for this fight.
    - Shadow Priests, Affliction Warlocks, and, by default due to their terrible range mechanics, Hunters all make exceptional choices for soakers on Iron Council hard mode.
    - Shadow Priests have a pretty respectable damage potential for Mimiron Firefighter.
    - Shadow Priests are damage sponges on Algalon with Dispersion.

    And for a a couple more trivial points

    - Shadow Priests are great on Kologarn
    - Shadow Priests are exceptionally great on Auriaya.

    In a standard, no gimmick fight, Shadow Priest damage is a little sub par (as is the case with Paladins and Warriors right now as well), but there are so many instances, especially when tackling hardmodes, where Shadow Priests really do shine. Regardless, the DPS difference between Shadow Priests (as well as Paladins and Warriors) on fights where they are lower isn't a huge deficiency. It's not like in BC where that White bar on recount was always right before the tanks, and closer to the tanks than the other DPS. It's not like Shadow Priests are dealing 2/3 the damage of other DPS classes.

    No matter what fight you're on, someone's always got to be at the bottom of the damage meters. And Shadow Priests aren't seeing that bottom endlessly.

    Any fight where you can dot up multiple targets or pump out crazy Mind Sear damage is where Shadow Priests shine. And these fights are more and more common these days.

    Yes, I'd like to see a bit of a buff to Shadow Priest damage, but I'm pretty content with it right now too.

    Plus, VE might not heal for insane amounts, but hey, it never hurts. =D
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  3. #23

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    GC is a lot smarter than OP and similar forum trolls, and a heck of a lot better at game design. Not that he's the only designer, but his presence on the forums and insights into the game design are awesome. It's too bad idiotic 12 year olds wanting their class to be overpowered will probably troll him away. Then we'll go back to having zero insight into what they're doing with the classes or why, like before GC showed up.

    "Buff my class because I'm bad and guilds dont want me!" - no thanks

  4. #24
    Dreadlord Sellest's Avatar
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    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    Quote Originally Posted by squirrelbot
    GC is a lot smarter than OP and similar forum trolls, and a heck of a lot better at game design. Not that he's the only designer, but his presence on the forums and insights into the game design are awesome. It's too bad idiotic 12 year olds wanting their class to be overpowered will probably troll him away. Then we'll go back to having zero insight into what they're doing with the classes or why, like before GC showed up.

    "Buff my class because I'm bad and guilds dont want me!" - no thanks
    I am quoting this because I trully agree with everything you wrote. So much true. All this GC bashing is so stupid and childish, people bashing him wouldn't be able to do his job for few minutes..

  5. #25

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sellest
    I am quoting this because I trully agree with everything you wrote. So much true. All this GC bashing is so stupid and childish, people bashing him wouldn't be able to do his job for few minutes..
    Listen, its not about bashing GC or anything.
    I just disagree with him, like many other playing this class.
    And when comparing lets say the Q&A aswell as many other things he "says" about the class I just dont agree with him.
    Thats why i post this...

    So whatever, your flaming keeps me warm! Continue!
    According to blizzard:

    Paladins : Lovedolls

    Priests : Swineflu

  6. #26

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    Shadowpriests aren't 'bad dps'. They're just not 'awesome dps'.

    Our guild spriest is usually stable in the middle of the DPS charts, and gets a spot because he does his job, manages to survive and rarely complain. In short - an excellent player.

    We have a deathknight consistently doing 6-7k DPS on almost every single fight in ulduar. He's damned awesome.
    We have a enhancement shaman consistently doing 6-7k DPS on almost every single fight in ulduar. He's damned awesome too!
    Both of these two players are never below top 5, including on ranged fights like thorim hardmode. They're just that good. Everyone in the guild knows it. They do harbor a lot of praise - and makes life hard for our other DKs and shammies not in the same league. The others tend to quit a lot. :/

    Our spriest is rarely in the top 5. He is on Freya, but that's pretty much it. I don't think he's that much below the two top dpsers in our guild, skillwise, and he's definitively got good gear. But he can't get those numbers they do. It's just not possible on a single target.

    Still, it's not a problem with shadowpriests. Our shadowpriest is good, and there is no qualms bringing him.

    GC's point was that all classes can do good DPS. It's true. But not all classes can do awesome DPS.

    Unanswered question: Is awesome DPS actually intended?
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  7. #27

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    The problem with GC is that he is a lead systems designer, not a communicator. He makes statements that conflict, writes one thing while thinking another, writes PvE answers to PvP questions and vica versa, and is generally careless with his words. He makes blanket statements about how the player base thinks rather than how the game is being designed.

    For instance, he recently said:
    "Giving up healing to do damage works okay. Giving up everything to heal is lame." --GC

    Now, there are several things wrong with this statement. First and foremost, he is giving his "as a player" opinion. GC thinks healing is lame without being able to pew pew. Notice, when you give up "healing" to do damage, your just giving up "healing." When you give up "damage" to do healing, you give up "everything." This is not the type of comment I want to hear from a Lead Systems Designer as a healer. I find healing much more satisfying and challenging than doing damage. Other people prefer DPS. Nobody is wrong. Why doesn't the Lead Systems Designer reflect that in his statement?

    Personally, I think it has very little with his ability to be a good Lead Systems Designer. Blizzard would not have him hired if he stunk at his job. However, he is a HORRIBLE communicator, and at times, makes him appear like he has no clue what he is talking about. For instance, he should have said something to the effect of: "While a DPS can conquer a challenge alone without healing himself, a healer cannot conquer a challenge alone by just healing. Therefore, having healers locked from their damaging spells while in a "healing form" is an unnecessary and burdensome penalty."

    I, however, will not "cut him slack" as long as part of his job is to communicate with the player base. What good is communication when it is contradictory, convoluted, or just poorly worded?

  8. #28
    Dreadlord
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    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    Quote Originally Posted by one_entity
    Bloodlust/Heroism much?

    Yeah, not a spec etc. but that one ability is pretty much all the reason you need to bring a shaman to a raid, if he's not totaly incompetent.
    While this is true to an extent, it really doesn't add much to the argument because while it's limited to a Class, it isn't limited to a spec, so 3/30 potential specs can bring it. There's several other buffs/abilities like this too. Any Mage brings the best Intellect buff and food, any Priest brings the best Spirit buff and the only Stam buff, any Paladin brings Kings. So, by the same argument that Heroism/Bloodlust is the only reason you need to bring a Shaman, you could argue that any one of those buffs is reason enough to bring one of those specific classes. The key point is that it's not a single spec, while you may do without a Resto Shaman or an Elemental Shaman, but you're virtually guaranteed at least one Shaman of some spec in a 25-man, and since one out of ten specs brings it, it's reasonable to expect it in a 10-man as well.

    What GC was trying to emphasize is that there aren't any mandatory buffs that are only brought by a single spec. They don't want you to bring a crappy Shadow Priest simply because he brings a mandatory buff that no other spec can bring. If you need a Spell hit buff or a Replenishment, as long as you have a Boomkin and another Replenishment class, you can bring a player that isn't crappy; similarly, if you need Fort or Spirit, you can bring a Holy or Disc Priest instead of a crappy Shadow Priest. It's no different with Heroism/Bloodlust; if you don't want to bring a crappy Enhancement Shaman, as long as you have a Resto or Elemental one, you can bring a better DPS instead.

    Anyway, I agree with the general sentiment here. GC has said some silly things, but this isn't one of them. It seems some players are conflating being to a raid, the way Shadow Priests were in BC, with being raid viable. Today, any given spec can be excluded from a raid and it can still be successful, so no class is mandatory anymore; this is a good thing. Being forced to bring a bad player for a mandatory buff isn't fun. This might still happen if, say, you can't find a single decent Shaman of any spec for Heroism, but at least it's easier to get mandatory buffs without sacrificing skill. And sure, some specs aren't really raid viable, but Shadow Priests aren't among them. They may not be top single target DPS in a Patchwerk type fight but, quite frankly, anyone who judges raid viability like that is a moron. Shadow Priests could probably use a little bit of tweaking, but giving them a mandatory buff is most definitely the wrong thing to do.

  9. #29

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    I don't see the problem either.
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    But we're worried that logic might not lead to the best game.

  10. #30

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-
    ]
    The problem with GC is that he is a lead systems designer, not a communicator. He makes statements that conflict, writes one thing while thinking another, writes PvE answers to PvP questions and vica versa, and is generally careless with his words. He makes blanket statements about how the player base thinks rather than how the game is being designed.

    For instance, he recently said:
    "Giving up healing to do damage works okay. Giving up everything to heal is lame." --GC

    Now, there are several things wrong with this statement. First and foremost, he is giving his "as a player" opinion. GC thinks healing is lame without being able to pew pew. Notice, when you give up "healing" to do damage, your just giving up "healing." When you give up "damage" to do healing, you give up "everything." This is not the type of comment I want to hear from a Lead Systems Designer as a healer. I find healing much more satisfying and challenging than doing damage. Other people prefer DPS. Nobody is wrong. Why doesn't the Lead Systems Designer reflect that in his statement?

    Personally, I think it has very little with his ability to be a good Lead Systems Designer. Blizzard would not have him hired if he stunk at his job. However, he is a HORRIBLE communicator, and at times, makes him appear like he has no clue what he is talking about. For instance, he should have said something to the effect of: "While a DPS can conquer a challenge alone without healing himself, a healer cannot conquer a challenge alone by just healing. Therefore, having healers locked from their damaging spells while in a "healing form" is an unnecessary and burdensome penalty."

    I, however, will not "cut him slack" as long as part of his job is to communicate with the player base. What good is communication when it is contradictory, convoluted, or just poorly worded?
    If only everyone thought the same way you do, Spiritus. Or at least, if they would express their concern in the way in which you just did. That makes GC "bashing" much more tolerable and understandable. I can see why you would disagree with that statement, and I do too. I just did not have the words to portray why I did not agree with him as well as you do. Lol, you should be his communicator.

  11. #31

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Priest
    Mandatory talents

    No. We're no longer in the business of giving specs a talent or ability that is so awesome that you just have to get...
    So does that mean Meditation's going baseline?
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
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  12. #32

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    Ret buffs the melee, heals the raid. boom brings a b-rez and crit buff...priest? oh hai bring me cuz i'm a great player even though my spec is weak please?
    Priests as a class are not weak, so that part is "fixt".
    The Single target of Shadow needs to be buffed, probably through mind blast and Mind Flay, true. But Shadow is far from being "weak" as well. You bring Replenishment, which granted so do 5 other people in your raid; good for you. You also bring 3% hit that you don't have to spend mana/time casting, unlike the Balance Druid (which for the longest time was getting bitched at by Ferals for not letting them use FFF for threat. They apparently fixed that, but Shadow's Misery is still better.) And multi-target fights tend to be everywhere, surprisingly Shadow is quite good. Patchwerk's dead, get over it. I see Vezax and Hodir, and given the fact you aren't standing still from start-to-finish, movement, timing and player skill do come into effect. Shadow does find itself a little low in effectiveness on those but not severely.

    Other things a Shadow Priest "brings" are survivability. When people start going down, you're usually the last one still up that doesn't use either Immunity or drops combat. And yhe little trickles of healing coming out from Improved VE isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Sure, it's pretty pitiful in numbers, but it's half of a constant HoT on a group (which is either 20% or 50% of a raid) that complements healers. VE is free. IVE is still free. Toss it up on Vezax and suddenly your healers last longer on hard mode. Nothing amazing but it does help.


    Druid 1 heal spec is higher hsp than our 2.
    Contrary to popular belief, Priests aren't balanced around having "two healing specs". Secondly, no druid will ever outperform a good Discipline Priest. Ever. On meters? Sure, all the time. Effectively? Get out of my raid.

    But if you're having fun watching meters and spamming Wild Growth, go on and have fun. We don't want you in our class anyways, you make us look bad.
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  13. #33
    Scarab Lord Izenhart's Avatar
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    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    Exidius your topic is actually retarded and mindless as it is, please give us more infos about your rant.

  14. #34

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-
    ]
    The problem with GC is that he is a lead systems designer, not a communicator. He makes statements that conflict, writes one thing while thinking another, writes PvE answers to PvP questions and vica versa, and is generally careless with his words. He makes blanket statements about how the player base thinks rather than how the game is being designed.

    For instance, he recently said:
    "Giving up healing to do damage works okay. Giving up everything to heal is lame." --GC

    Now, there are several things wrong with this statement. First and foremost, he is giving his "as a player" opinion. GC thinks healing is lame without being able to pew pew. Notice, when you give up "healing" to do damage, your just giving up "healing." When you give up "damage" to do healing, you give up "everything." This is not the type of comment I want to hear from a Lead Systems Designer as a healer. I find healing much more satisfying and challenging than doing damage. Other people prefer DPS. Nobody is wrong. Why doesn't the Lead Systems Designer reflect that in his statement?

    Personally, I think it has very little with his ability to be a good Lead Systems Designer. Blizzard would not have him hired if he stunk at his job. However, he is a HORRIBLE communicator, and at times, makes him appear like he has no clue what he is talking about. For instance, he should have said something to the effect of: "While a DPS can conquer a challenge alone without healing himself, a healer cannot conquer a challenge alone by just healing. Therefore, having healers locked from their damaging spells while in a "healing form" is an unnecessary and burdensome penalty."

    I, however, will not "cut him slack" as long as part of his job is to communicate with the player base. What good is communication when it is contradictory, convoluted, or just poorly worded?
    I actually think he's a much, much more effective communicator than people that often take him out of context or infer subtext where there likely is none, give him credit for. It's certainly much, much more valuable than standard fair blue posts or the outright babble we got from Kaplan and the like.

    I work with guys like GC. If any of them were half as effective at written and spoken communication as he is I'd be ecstatic.

  15. #35

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Priest
    Mandatory talents

    No. We're no longer in the business of giving specs a talent or ability that is so awesome that you just have to get...
    So does that mean Meditation's going baseline?
    Well, the full quote is "No. We're no longer in the business of giving specs a talent or ability that is so awesome that you just have to get brought to a raid."

    Nobody is bringing Priests to raid because Meditation is so awesome :P

    edit: If they want to buff our utility a little, it will be through something small, at least this expansion I am guessing. Something like making Hymn of Hope a discipline spell so we don't break Shadowform when we use it would be a step in the right direction. Since we have no mana problems on most fights, it would be a nice bonus for the rest of the raids mana users.
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  16. #36

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    I find it abit weird Shadow Priest are QQing about mandatory talents in the shadow tree.

    You basically can't heal in raids without meditation (yes i have tried out not taking meditation, i even tried to shuffle gear around towards mp5s but it really doesn't work out, is 'sort of' worked out as discipline but was a total fail as holy).

    I really don't see a reason to have such a mandatory talent like meditation, and i don't see why blizz can't change it into something more interesting and making meditation baseline.

    As holy, I'll be more then willing to invest points in the discipline tree for something with more flavor then meditation (or in other words; if your healing in pve you can't play without 3/3 here).

    Edit: was just thinking of how to add more 'flavor' to meditation, was thinking of two things:
    1. Meditation becomes baseline. Instead of the talent a new talent <insert name> Gives you a 1/2/3 % chance of entering a Clearcasting state after casting any spell. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next spell by 100%. This will be usefull for any spec, this can also work with come spells increasing your crit chance for Xx sec's. And its not mandatory to have it.
    2. Meditation becomes baseline. Instead of the talent a new talent <insert name> Increases the critical effect of your smite by 33/66/100% of your smite and holy fires spells. (I am not a holy dps lover, i'm actually against it but its definetly more interesting then meditation as a talent).

  17. #37

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    We did well in Naxx

    We did worse in Ulduar but still good enough to bring us to a raid(some encounter rly favor us there, vezax , yogg etc)

    But what about Coloseum? Were getting worse(if nothing happens/scaling bla bla)

    thats the whole point of QQing right now.

  18. #38

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    Nikkita, I've got an idea.

    Make a blessed fire buff, removes Inner Fire while cast, 30 minutes. Instead of increasing your armor, it gives you regen, but the same Spell Power as Inner Fire (and Improved through IIF as well).
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
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  19. #39

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    Quote Originally Posted by [-Spiritus-
    ]
    The buffs that feral druids and boomkins bring can be provided by other class/specs.

    Leader of the Pack <-> Rampage
    Faerie Fire <-> CoW
    Demo Roar<->Demo Shout/Imp CoW
    Mangle <-> Trauma

    Imp Moonkin <-> Swift Retribution
    Moonkin Aura <-> Elemental Oath
    Insect Swarm <-> Scorpid Sting
    Earth&Moon <-> CoE/EbonPB
    Imp Faerie Fire <-> Misery

    There aren't any "required" buffs that can only be brought by one class/spec. There are a few than can only be brought by one class (IE--Heroism, PW:F, BoK, etc).

    If you think top end guilds don't bring/recruit Spriests, then there is little I can do to convince you. Either you are in a top guild that doesn't have a Spriest, or your not in a top guild and you are speaking from what you've seen from Spriests pugging Naxx. All I can tell you is check the rosters.

    Again, as much as it pains me, GC actually said something coherent, if not unnecessary and obvious.
    The flaw in this argument is that while there's more than one source for a buff/debuff, raids are going to want to take the better option.

    IE not having your warrior have to go Fury
    IE letting your warlock get up damage curses
    IE not having to make your DKs take a subpar spec for Ebon Plague

    It's the same reason why some, albeit not all, guilds are sitting spriests out for fights like Algalon. Sure our Shadow priest is an option, but it's not the best option.

  20. #40

    Re: And yet again GC shows knowledge!

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    The flaw in this argument is that while there's more than one source for a buff/debuff, raids are going to want to take the better option.

    IE not having your warrior have to go Fury
    IE letting your warlock get up damage curses
    IE not having to make your DKs take a subpar spec for Ebon Plague

    It's the same reason why some, albeit not all, guilds are sitting spriests out for fights like Algalon. Sure our Shadow priest is an option, but it's not the best option.
    Well, sure. If I was getting paid to run my guild and I could pay 25 players to show up from X-Y on Z days, I could build the perfect raid. I would take E&M over CoE/EbonPB... because its baked into the rotation. However, IFF isn't baked into the Mookin rotation, whereas Misery is. Furthermore, Dispersion is used by many top end guilds to soak Big Bang.

    Could go back and forth forever on this. I'll concede that some top guilds snub their noses at Spriests. However, I think most top end guilds care more about the player behind the toon than a marginal increase in DPS that most likely doesn't mean the difference in boss down or wipe.

    What people do with their guilds is their business. However, to proliferate the idea that guilds ranked in the world top10 are somehow wrong, or not bringing the best option, is folly.

    Does that mean Spriests don't need a buff? No. Neither am I advocating it. Its just an observation of fact.

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