Hunter feeling left out of the game :(

[kesukei]

After a WoW break, I picked up WotLK in june. The last few months of playing I've had this strange feeling that as a hunter I'm very marginalised. Like there is nothing special about the hunter as a class. I feel like if I rerolled another class it would open up so many opportunities without costing me any. I'm cancelling my subscription for a month starting on Sunday to have a think about whether I want to keep playing or not since I have no desire to reroll and I’d appreciate hearing other players opinions on my thoughts.

In WotLK I just feel lame at both PvP and PvE. If I were picking my “dream team” group for an instance or an arena team, there aren’t many situations where I would personally want a hunter. My issues are that damage is lame by comparison to other classes. In wrath, CC is less important than it was in TBC and 9 times out of 10 tanks can mutli-tank all mobs in a pull.

In PvP I experience two problems. One is that the class is too clunky with redundant and niche abilities like AotB. Raptor strike... why even bother?! The other big issue I feel is that in WotLK other classes have so many abilities to close range with a hunter (like the DK grip ability) and vice-versa hunters have very little way out of melee even when they have seen the other players move coming a mile off. I don’t have an issue losing PvP fights but I want the capacity to give as good as I get. Instead I’m being forced into a defensive style of play, despite having very little defensive capacity.

I know 3.2 delivered a big buff to deterrence but I think the data shows that it’s going to take a much more significant approach to several abilities rather than a single ability boost to reverse hunters fortunes. Damage needs to go up, snare/root resisting abilities need to be improved or more added possibly in the form of glyphs? Redundant abilities need removing or redesigning and more hunter specific CC opportunities or similar should be added to give the class a sense of group utility. The introduction of pet happiness buffing glyphs and abilities has disconnected me from feeding my pets entirely. Instead of feeling like a companion they feel like an inanimate weapon.

Right now I’m like a crap lock. Stings are curses, traps are CC abilities, beast pets are demon pets. Eagle Eye is a crap Eye of Killrogg etc. What is special about being a hunter? Why should I even bother? As the only physical ranged DPS class we fill a huge niche and right now I just don’t feel like it’s a niche that wants filling in the game which seems very tank oreintated right now.

[culanap]

Q_Q
I've seen plenty of hunters in 3.2 dish out very high dps.

[Slappster]

When Wrath first came out hunters were always on top of the pve dps charts. Even after BM was killed, SV and MM hunters have still been able to hang on to being in the top 5 or so. If you've been gone for awhile, or are still BM (lolz), I suggest you take a look at your spec, gear, and rotations to improve your personal performance. There are some abilities that have been downgraded as you say, but your point about cc etc is true of any class, there just isn't the need for it as much in Wrath.

[wowman]

you're taking the game way to seriously

[Amethon]

When Wrath first came out hunters were always on top of the pve dps charts. Even after BM was killed, SV and MM hunters have still been able to hang on to being in the top 5 or so. If you've been gone for awhile, or are still BM (lolz), I suggest you take a look at your spec, gear, and rotations to improve your personal performance. There are some abilities that have been downgraded as you say, but your point about cc etc is true of any class, there just isn't the need for it as much in Wrath.

/agree

I've played a hunter for a long time now and i rarely am out of the top 3 in my guild. Some fights aren't made for hunters, some are, just stick in there and you'll start enjoying it again

[Darkozz]

Honestly, right now i find the hunter class one of the most... "interesting" in PvE: very high DPS if you know hoe to rotate your shots, you have to manage your pet in order to keep it alive during fights ( sometimes it's just impossible, but that's it ), plenty of situational skills.

What i mean is that it gives me the feeling it is a class you have to know in order to play at best, it's not 3-buttons-smash class like it was when BM was buffed.

[Burner]

I have 1 problem with my hunter.....


every damn thing is bugged to hell.


pets are bugged

attacks are bugged I get LOS errors when I'm clearly not blocked by anything

when a marked target is killed you literally MUST wait a second or two before you tab over targets or he continues to AUTOFIRE thus pulling mobs unintended.

Marking a target with Hunter's Mark at times Hunter will AUTOATTACK if he's left on the target after marking.

It hasn't always been this way, but they become more and more bugged with each expansion.


It's no wonder they are called Huntards, but honestly the class is just bugged to hell.

[Neichus]

I PvE, so I'll be hitting that aspect of your post.

My first question is: what do you conceptualize as a worthy niche? Because to be honest with the structure of WotLK class balance, there's no special role somebody else can't fill. As for there being "nothing special", I'm not sure what you're looking for. They share a priority cooldown system similar to many other classes (Warriors, Ret Paladins), except they are the only ones to do so at range. This dps style makes hunters good at frontloading damage on new targets, and their range makes it easy to switch targets unlike their melee counterparts; I've found few classes can match my Marks hunter for being able to store up cooldowns then burst a target quickly.

A few other random tidbits:
-Hunters are only one of two classes that can dispel Enrages, and the more convenient choice in certain circumstances for this role.
-Their ability to pull and then drop aggro was essential for the world-first Yogg25 0-Keeper kill.
-They're still one of the better kiting classes if the task is needed.
-I'm sure there's more, but my guildie is asking me to heal something.

[Crepuscular]

Well, I have played a Hunter both in raids and PvP and I can honestly say that you must be doing something wrong for not being in top or so. Survival Hunter is ´quite complicated with dots to watch out for, cooldowns and stuff.

In PvP as BM you can kite almost everybody to death. DK Death Grip? You use the jump back ability right away, and he has a that on cooldown. a ranged stun from intimidation, another stun if the pet is a crap, consussive shot and frost trap....You can keep the guy away from you at all times if you do it right. Not easy, granted, but thats the fun of it. When you get to learn how to kite the bastard around until dead knowing you just out-skilled the poor nab^^

[Kyiera]

When Wrath first came out hunters were always on top of the pve dps charts. Even after BM was killed, SV and MM hunters have still been able to hang on to being in the top 5 or so. If you've been gone for awhile, or are still BM (lolz), I suggest you take a look at your spec, gear, and rotations to improve your personal performance. There are some abilities that have been downgraded as you say, but your point about cc etc is true of any class, there just isn't the need for it as much in Wrath.

What he said :P Hunters are still able to put up incredible dps in groups and raids. Our top DPS is always flopping between an enhance shammy, rogue, or hunter depending on the fight. As far as damage being "lame" ... BM is really the only spec which makes me feel this way with my hunter. Survival (and at higher tiers Marks once you get the gear) can push out DPS just as well, if not better, than everyone else.

As for PvP, I still get my butt handed to me by hunters all the time. You're right about certain skills being pretty worthless in pvp, but what class -doesn't- have skills which fall into the same category? As for gap closing, they changed hunter mechanics a LOT and I find it harder to keep up with a hunter (on a melee character) now than I ever have before. Between traps, wing clip, conc. shot, master's call and the new disengage, you have a whole pile of tools to keep melee away while you fire arrows into their face.

You mentioned that you've only been back since June, so your gear may be partially to blame for your lackluster experience as well. Make sure to run as many heroics as you can stomach (Especially the daily one since it gives 2 emblems of triumph which you can put towards T9 level gear) and don't be hesitant to try out other specs. A few gear upgrades can go a LONG way towards improving dps, especially when you're going from a heroic blue to an ilvl 226 or 232 epic.

If you still feel like hunter is letting you down after your break, don't ditch the game right away. Levelling has never been easier than it is now ... especially with the stackable Heirloom items. Once you hit Outland you'll be 80 in no time.

[DocQuantum]

I've never played a hunter past level 30 or so... so this is from the outside looking in.

The hunters I've seen in PvE tend to fall into three categories: huntards (I'll ignore them for the rest of this post), the hunters who sit in the bottom-to-middle of the damage charts, and the amazing chart-topping hunters.

This tells me that the class isn't broken... but also implies that there were some fundamental changes between TBC and Wrath. It's possible you missed a patch note, and need to change some ideas about specs/gear/rotations. I don't know what these are - but I'd check forums, patch notes, or 'chart-topping' hunters for suggestions. (I've seen a ton of "rate my gear/spec/etc." type threads on this forum, for example; be prepared for a lot of flames and trolls... but there will be a lot of good information, too.)

In PvP, it's the same thing: some hunters leave me feeling like I never stood a chance - their class just flat pwns. Other hunters I wonder if I'm beating on a mental cripple. My guess is this is another "lots of class changes" issue.

As to the bugs... yeah. I play a 'lock, and our pets have a LOT of "issues" these days - most of which we probably share with your pets. The Ring of Valor elevator, for example, is a personal pet peeve (pun fully intended).

I'd probably suggest posting your armory link and mentioning your tactics (ideas on which stats are best, rotations, pet choices, etc.) and hoping for the best from the community.

[Callsign Grunge]

In all honesty, Hunters have been quite a rollercoaster class (which class hasn't), possibly even more so than any other classes (except maybe Paladins). The game is never going to be fully balanced, and when it does, or comes very close to being balanced, a new Xpac will arrive and things will be unbalanced once again.

These are the way things are, and we just have to deal with it.

[kesukei]

Thanks for your input so far everyone, I take everything on board. To answer some questions:

I'm in mostly iLvl 200-213 gear for PvE with some 226 badge reward gear thrown in. For PvP i'm slightly better in majority 213-226. I agree, as posters have suggested that my DPS concerns are gear progression related which I should have mentioned in my original post.

I believe the problem is that blizzard intended to add a different hunter ammo mechanic where a "type" of ammo was loaded rather than a simple +dps ammo, this would contribute I suspect about 10-15% to the overall dps. However they were unable to implement that change and so instead in 3.2 they buffed the higher ranged weapons to include this extra damage. However, my 129.6 dps Drake-Mounted Crossbow falls below the level of the boost. I suspect that an iLvl 213+ ranged weapon would alleviate much of my DPS woes. It’s no that I just want more DPS, its that I felt there was a dps scaling problem that exists until you can hit mostly tier 8/8.5 gear.

I'm happy with my DPS spec and I tend to play around a lot to pump my dps up as high as I can. At the moment I'm cookie cutter Surv and am very happy with this. As for class mechanics I made sure I was back up to date the day I loaded WotlK. I’m not worried about my problems being a result of tactics. I liked the post that mentioned hunters having more abilities to create a gap than ever before from the melee perspective and this is an angle that I hadn't considered. I still think it’s an area that needs boosting, possibly optionally via glyphs.

Finally my biggest concern was the lack of a niche or purpose in the game. To expand on that in answer to the questions;
Although I understand it’s important for there to be class cross over, it seems like hunters cross over as weaker versions of other classes for all but the very highest geared in PvE. Similarly if it was PvP and I had a choice of grouping with an equally geared and skilled lock or hunter, I’d take the lock any day. I think particularly towards PvP I feel that right now, when I’m a mental step ahead of my opponents, I often lack the tools at hand to overcome their move, irrelevant of gear or skill.

[bullseyed]

Well, I have played a Hunter both in raids and PvP and I can honestly say that you must be doing something wrong for not being in top or so. Survival Hunter is ´quite complicated with dots to watch out for, cooldowns and stuff.

In PvP as BM you can kite almost everybody to death. DK Death Grip? You use the jump back ability right away, and he has a that on cooldown. a ranged stun from intimidation, another stun if the pet is a crap, consussive shot and frost trap....You can keep the guy away from you at all times if you do it right. Not easy, granted, but thats the fun of it. When you get to learn how to kite the bastard around until dead knowing you just out-skilled the poor nab^^

Look at what you listed for kiting.

Disengage, intimidation, crab pin, concussive shot, frost trap.

Guess what you're not doing? If you said damage, you're... RIGHT.

A huge part of the reason hunters are hands down the WORST PvP class in the game is because have the choice of a.) Not dying or b.) Doing no damage. WTB more abilities that provide slows/cc AND damage in the same GCD. Or else take some of our snares off the GCD.

I want to be able to shoot someone and apply crippling poison. Or slow someone down by doing frost damage. Or use fire damage to stun someone.

[Crepuscular]

Look at what you listed for kiting.

Disengage, intimidation, crab pin, concussive shot, frost trap.

Guess what you're not doing? If you said damage, you're... RIGHT.

A huge part of the reason hunters are hands down the WORST PvP class in the game is because have the choice of a.) Not dying or b.) Doing no damage. WTB more abilities that provide slows/cc AND damage in the same GCD. Or else take some of our snares off the GCD.

I want to be able to shoot someone and apply crippling poison. Or slow someone down by doing frost damage. Or use fire damage to stun someone.

That's not serious right? Your joking I hope?

The most important thing in PvP is to be in control of the fight for starters. Then, as a hunter, being on range of the target is - well - important^^ In order to do any decent DPS to another player as a hunter you need 2 keep the guy away from you, and thats what I was pointing out. Your auto shots will keep coming and you will be able to do your specials if you are at range. So, this means that if you wan't to kill the other guy you need keep him away from melee range.

In case of a caster it os even easier, because you got 2 ranged stuns (intimidation and crap pin) your auto shots will interrupt him all the time along with the pets melee attacks and using "Beast Within" you will not be able 2 be feared if the caster is a lock.....

I am a medicore PvP'er on my hunter and I am yet to see the class that I can't rip apart (except paladins ofc^^)

[Abandon]

Does Crab Pin interrupt? I thought it was just a root that does damage.

[Arcilux]

I see a lot of hunters doing quite high end dps. I have never gotten a hunter to endgame, the farthest I have gotten one is around level 40 on a server I no longer play on, but hunters are a very interesting class. Personally I find the pet system intriguing(seems childish, but it is something different that no other class has, and that appeals to me), hunters are almost completely ranged, like casters, but can also melee semi-efficiently, and almost all(all?) attacks are instant cast, no need to wait x seconds for the bar to get filled up.

PvP, pet special abilities, traps, multiple crowd controls, etc. make hunters very viable and a force to be reckoned with.

It's all a matter of personal preference, but hunters seem like anything but an absolute bore to me.

[kesukei]

hunters are almost completely ranged, like casters, but can also melee semi-efficiently

Melee is something hunters really can't do too any efficiency. We have 3, or optionally 4 melee abilities most of which will never be used in PvP and only used in PvE out of lazyness when a mob is already low on health. 1. Auto-attack 2. Raptor strike increases weapon damage by x, Mongoose Bite does X damage after a dodge and optionally 4, counterattack which is a root available after parrying.

Auto/Raptor is too weak to really justify using and although mongoose can be used, I prefer to use the time it would take too open range if possible, I suspect most hunters do. Then there’s counterattack which is very clunky. It’s a classic example of the overly complex proc based abilities that make the hunter a slow class in increasingly fast PvP.

I'd love to see counterattack detached from parry and just on an X seconds cooldown, that would make it much more viable. A lot of the clunky hunter abilities are like this, they have a very solid basis but yet somehow in their application become too slippery to be reliable enough for use.
On the positive side, I do like the WotLK pet ability changes as it makes choosing a pet more interesting, although pet happiness feels more like an irrelevant buff than a lore connection. WotLK has certainly picked up a bit of a “Gotta-Catch-Em-All” pokemon feel, pull out a PvP pet from the call pet ability is just a pokeball on a 30 min cooldown, useful as it is I think it takes something away from what the pet is in principle.

[Crepuscular]

Does Crab Pin interrupt? I thought it was just a root that does damage.

Your right, my bad - Crap Pin is a root and not a stun

[Myzou]

Melee is something hunters really can't do too any efficiency. We have 3, or optionally 4 melee abilities most of which will never be used in PvP and only used in PvE out of lazyness when a mob is already low on health. 1. Auto-attack 2. Raptor strike increases weapon damage by x, Mongoose Bite does X damage after a dodge and optionally 4, counterattack which is a root available after parrying.

Auto/Raptor is too weak to really justify using and although mongoose can be used, I prefer to use the time it would take too open range if possible, I suspect most hunters do. Then there’s counterattack which is very clunky. It’s a classic example of the overly complex proc based abilities that make the hunter a slow class in increasingly fast PvP.

However, we CAN melee semi efficiently, as the poster you quoted was trying to say.

I do 800 dps unbuffed while meleeing. That's with Razorscale Talon x2 w/ 400 Sword Skill (<3 the fact Deterrence gives skill ups for melee weapons).

If you're forced into melee, drop immo trap. (Snake Trap now that its not shared CD), hit raptor strike, and start spamming Mongoose Bite whenever it's up, and making sure Raptor Strike is set to go off on the next auto attack when it's off the CD as well.

In case you missed it, Mongoose bite no longer requires that the target dodged/parried. That was changed patches ago.