raid bosses in arena matches

[coldethyl]

My guild just had to compete in a 25 on 10 arena match inorder to progress in the argent tournament.we had to deal with the diminishing returns on cc from pvp,and targets that couldnt be tanked due to there ai.now before anyone gets uppity and says you had them outnumbered 2.5 to 1 ,they had 3million health each and had some funky rules when it came to interupts(and the warlocks fel puppy has an instant cast aoe silence with a 10 yard radius).when ever you counterspelled or silenced a spell cast the caster was not locked out of that magic school,so at one point we had 5 melee with interupts beating on a resto shammy who tried casting healing wave every second reguardless of how many times you interupted it. This no lockout effect was in play from the first counterspell of the match,I threw a cs on the afore mentioned shammy and it immediatly started casting the exact same spell as soon as the initial cast bar disppeared.

I have heard all the pvp people talk about how your skill set is superior because you have to adapt on the fly.it took us 3 trys to defeat the faction champions(in a guild where only 6 of our 25 have any arena exp).I feel its only fair that they make an arena where the match starts after both 5 man teams have to cooperate to kill a target with 3 million health.whats good for the goose is good for the gander as they say.

If the raid boss idea scares you too much i have a compromise,they should make an arena based on the hallway after patchwerk that leads to the big poison spewing boss who has a gas mask for a face and wears a fanny pack.its commonly called frogger.there are 3 rows of slimes that cross perpincicularly to the run of the hallway and if you touch one it explodes for 25k damage.I think that hallway with those slimes and no line of sight what so ever should be the next place you have to do your little arena activitys.give the melee something to worry about as they try their cloth seeking missile routine.

perhaps blizzard can randomly drop scaled down versions of raid bosses into arena matches.sometimes its a normal match but one out of 5 times just as the doors open you get mini onyxia or little illidan to play with before you can reach the other team.Its only fair since they are mucking up my pve with this pvp triviality that you pvp purists get to actually see how this game is supposed to be played.

If I sound overly bitter it may have something to do with my main being a mage,the pure class that puts up sub hybred numbers on all pve boss fights that dont have gimicks pushing up damage and cast speed.because of arena mages have been gimped.you guys complain that the squishiest class has the largest damage out put,and blizzard listens to you.so we went from being the kings of single target damage to the class that is first on threat after the tank but is 9th on the dps chart below the hybreds.Apparantly its perfectly exceptable for rogues to stun lock,and for ret pallys and dks of every flavor to 2-3 shot people ,but when a mage does the same thing you guys cry about it and blizzard nerfs us again.they fixed mage dps for 16 hours a few weeks ago,living bomb ticks were contributing to hotstreak thus upping our dps via instant cast pyroblasts.They hot fixed it in 16 hours so living bomb ticks no longer contribute to hot streak ,apparantly because some 5 mage teams were spamming away with living bomb,and some battle grounds were filled with mages spamming lb on every target in sight.ret,rouges,and dks get to be op in pvp,and lead the meters in pve and thats fine,but mages have to be subpar in pve so the pvp set dont get their pantys in a bunch and start crying.Its rather depressing actually.

[Zophiel]

Frost is better for pvp...true story

[coldethyl]

to the poster above about frost,i know that,you know that ,but for some reason blizzard doesnt know that,they nerf mages across the board in every spec because of arena and battlegrounds.i have no problem with frost not being a viable raid spec,but for some reason all mage spec had to be knocked down a notch to placate the arena masses.

For the record i raid as TTW/fireball,and have a pve arcane off spec that only gets used for some hard mode boss fights and the faction champions.the extra mobility helps alot with so many targets chaseing you arround.

[zelcione]

op retris are completely out of the story, dks suck, rogues are like they have been forever. and frost mages got MS... it's so funny that like 90% of all players complain about being underpowered. frost mages have the highest skill "cap" aviable in my opinion and in very many guys who know anything about pvp. try being a enhance shaman. not saying that i am but they are underpowered. pvp wise. anyways i was just putting this in with what i was about to say. and i don't understand how guilds can actully wipe once on this boss in normal. i know some people are "retards" but it isnt hard to chain cc couple of healers and dps and just nuke one target. u can kill one "boss" within 10-15 secs.

[zelcione]

op retris are completely out of the story, dks suck, rogues are like they have been forever. and frost mages got MS... it's so funny that like 90% of all players complain about being underpowered. frost mages have the highest skill "cap" aviable in my opinion and in very many guys who know anything about pvp. try being a enhance shaman. not saying that i am but they are underpowered. pvp wise. anyways i was just putting this in with what i was about to say. and i don't understand how guilds can actully wipe once on this boss in normal. i know some people are "retards" but it isnt hard to chain cc couple of healers and dps and just nuke one target. u can kill one "boss" within 10-15 secs.

Edit : and blizzard has already admited already that every class should have one viable spec for pvp. some have more some but it's usally just one. good players can make every spec work.

[Zophiel]

To Coldethyl: I didnt mean to seem like I was trolling if I came off that way.

I think one thing I've learned from my last few years of playing WoW is that there are always going to be certain classes that are overpowered and underpowered at any given time. I've given up on thinking it will all eventually balance out and normalize but I understand where you are coming from. One of my biggest gripes are probably high damage output classes with very good healing capabilities. I still feel like Ret to a certain extent is OP especially with the new Exorcism change and Crusader Strike CD change (especially with the set bonuses from Tier gear) and Death Knights which can put out a ton of damage and have many ways to get out of harms way and put up a good self heal when needed. I play a Warrior and have just started to play a Feral Druid and I have to say that either one just gets eaten alive by both of these classes (not so much the feral druid because of so many different self sustaining mechanics) but more so on my Warrior. It still is beyond me why Blizzard would give these classes the potential for so much damage up front and make most of it magic which bypasses armor. I've gotten off on some strange tangent but what I was trying to say is hopefully something will get done to help your spec out to make it more viable in arena and pvp in general but I've given up just waiting for the day on those things. It seems like Blizzard wants to pigeon hole mages into frost for that area of the game but at the same time I can understand them not wanting to give a class so much damage up front that CC or survivability Cooldowns should be ignored.


Did I just QQ in most of that lol, didnt mean to...

And before you guys start flaming about how OP warriors are and how good they are...they are...if you have a healer.

[DocQuantum]

My guild just had to compete in a 25 on 10 arena match inorder to progress in the argent tournament.

I snipped the rest... becuase all I heard was QQ. I don't mean to be a jerk (and if you saw my arena rating, you'd see I'm definitely not a hard-core PvP elitist)... but I don't see a problem here.

Ignoring for the moment that there are a LOT of people (such as myself) who enjoy both PvE and PvP, I fail to see why you think that there should be absolutely no "cross-contamination" whatsoever.

Hard-core PvErs have been complaining about "nothing new" on the "easy mode" fights. Blizz tries something a little different... and you complain.

In regard to your point about "sauce for the gander" and forcing PvPers to PvE... there already is, to an extent, some of that inherent in the game. Entry level PvP players really need to run VoA or raids for gear (in general for VoA; weapons from other raids, until rating is high enough for PvP weapons). PvPers were complaining about being "forced" to PvE; now we've got PvErs complaining about being "forced" to PvP.

In regards to your comment about mage threat being so high... qq more, please: I play a 'lock. I can't ice block, soul shatter sucks as an alteranative, and my threat-to-DPS ratio is higher than any mage I've played with. I compensate, use my cooldowns, and think about what I'm doing and live with it. I suggest you try the same.

... and if you think mages have it rough in PvP, try playing a 'lock or shammy.

If I sound bitter or hostile, it's because your post was bitter and hostile: it tends to bring that out in people responding to you.

[coldethyl]

good thing your a doctor there quantum,sounds like you need 50,000cc's of midol stat.they threw pvp in my pve world,its only fair they balance the equasion.

I hear all the time that pve players cant adapt,that all we do is learn is a script.Im just wondering how well the average arena player would handle haveing a pve encounter dropped on there face.arena players complain and pve gets altered in negative ways.pve players complain about the nerfs and blizzard says nothing.

We of the pve community have learned to cope with this,Im just hoping they give the fine upstanding (and entirely too goddamned vocal) citizens of arenaland a chance to step up to the plate and deal with that which you have chosen to avoid.

ive always stayed out of these arguements,then blizzard decided to make the third out of 5 bosses in our new raid instance operate under rules we never had to deal with before.

I never said mages have it rough in pvp,i dont give a damn about pvp and how it relates to mages and there strengths and weaknesses,I mentioned that my class has been completely remade from being tied for the most damageing and easiest to kill class(with rogues) to a class that is kept in the barrel so all the melee can own the day in pvp.letting us cast one living bomb on a target and haveing the crits from the dot part count towards hotstreak would have balanced the TTW/fireball spec with all the other pure dps classes in pve,but it didnt work out that way,they decided to let the crits not affect hotstreak because of pvp tears(and only 16 hours worth at that) while allowing us to cast lb on multiple targets.by the way in a pve aoe situation you only cast living bomb on 2 or 3 targets even if there are 15 total targets,because after the first 3 global cooldowns are up the mobs are 3/4ths dead and the third bomb you cast never detonates. people have mentioned warlocks and there pvp liabilitys,in pve locks can lead the meters.they suck in arena and own in pve,mages suck in pvp and mostly suck in pve.I just want a fair smack at the pinata is all.other classes that are pvp defecient are pve powerhouses,just not mages.dont show me parses from general or iron council in uld and say mages are fine,take a look at xt,or kologarn,or yogg,or ignus where there are not any artificial boosts to dps and look where the mages are.

[rathok]

I feel its only fair that they make an arena where the match starts after both 5 man teams have to cooperate to kill a target with 3 million health.

They have this already, its called.... 10 man TOC!

[K4ge]

One difference: randomness in raids makes them interesting
Randomness in arena makes it retarded.

Another point is the following: there are as good as no players whatsoever that have never killed a raidboss. Especially since at the beginning of the expansion raiding was the ONLY way of getting decent gear.
However, I know plenty of people who don't arena at all.
Same difference really.

Oh and "how this game is supposed to be played"
Since they put in honor points, pvp is also a way "it's supposed to be played". Wow is an esport now, that's where the cash is, that's where the viewers are (note: wow is the MOST watched esport), get over it.

[Sneakybastard]

I cba reading the wall of text.

Nonetheless, raid bosses in arena.... we're talking about DKS, amirite?

[rathok]

wow, so many walls of so much text. rly not worth reading but to whatever your point was, you're wrong and adding PVE to PVP is retarded because if you wanted to PVE as a PVPer then you could just go.... PVE!

[Somedudeknownaschris]

Seriously? Blizzard come up with a new (forget about MGT 3rd boss for now :P) interesting raid boss which is not your standard tank and spank, do [ x ] when [ y ] happens and avoid [ z ], and you complain like a fag?

Get over yourself. PvPers run VOA for bits of gear, some may enjoy it, some may not. PvEers now have a boss which uses some pvp mechanics to add a new interesting challenge. Some may enjoy it, some may not (personally I think it's the best encounter Blizzard have ever made). If you want a game that will be the same all the way through, go and play fucking tetris.

[coldethyl]

Seriously? Blizzard come up with a new (forget about MGT 3rd boss for now :P) interesting raid boss which is not your standard tank and spank, do [ x ] when [ y ] happens and avoid [ z ], and you complain like a fag?

Get over yourself. PvPers run VOA for bits of gear, some may enjoy it, some may not. PvEers now have a boss which uses some pvp mechanics to add a new interesting challenge. Some may enjoy it, some may not (personally I think it's the best encounter Blizzard have ever made). If you want a game that will be the same all the way through, go and play fucking tetris.

Voa doesnt have raid bosses,it has loot pinatas ,dont confuse the bosses in there that die so easy with the challenging ones.I just want arena players to have a situation where your version of progression is dependant on a skillset most of you have not embrased.to complete the tournament you have no choice but to pvp for it.to raiders progression in a raid instance matters alot,maybee a real raid raid boss should be tied into your precious arena ratings.that would be unacceptable to you guys id imagine.yet its convex is something we have to deal with as raiders.

I think i have figured out the problem with the arena mindest,arsebiter and a few others have been most helpful. I used to think you were all just oblivious dicks not careing how your little game in a room about line of sight was haveing a negative impact on pve,now i realize after all the "too long didnt read" and "wall of text" responces that its not that your just oblivious dicks,you guys just have really short attention spans as well.I think ill attribute it to the crystal meth.it all makes sence now.you guys dont raid because the bumps wear off and you get cranky every hour.plus that shit is really bad for your teeth and part of the over all bitchiness of the arena world could be attributed to nerve endings exposed to the air because of the rot.

Esport seriously you guys have to give up on this part,just because more people are watching wow as "esport" doesnt mean it matters one bit,I guranteethe total viewers of wow "esport" events couldnt touch the subterrianian tv ratings of the WNBA or what ever they call the professional curling league up in the great white north.It never occoured to me that some arena players would consider the further distruction of PvE as a good thing because they dont have to buy lottery tickets or get a real job.

and a side note to the barney generation you guys need to learn to detect humor even when its subtle and your its target,this bit where you instantly turn into captain literal the destroyer of jokes is getting old.

[Mjollnir]

This is why (imo), PvP > PvE, PvE'rs dont learn how to make they're own strategies and learn how to use focus macros, and keybindings and communication to indicate if your CC'd,need heals or a BoP or PS. All they know is to steal other people strategies and spam rotations while in PvP we make our own strategies, use macros,keybindings and use w.e moves we have useful to us in PvP. (P.S I only find PvE boring because nothing much happens, its the same thing over and over, the Faction champion fight has many things that can happen. Thats why I find this attempt fun and its why I find Arena/PvP fun)

To the poster saying Locks take skill, I find locks and frost mages are about balanced, Probably the only Lock spec that I find Not-so-skillful is Destro, because if a melee just slaps you in the face you get a free incinerate from backlash, you can kite them away and port back and cast immolate,Conflagration,Incinerate and a 2 second Chao's Bolt and do about.. 20k damage or maybe more. While a frost mage needs to nova them, Cast frostbolts, bring out they're pet, Stun them and do about... maybe.. 10-15k damage (If he gets a shatter off). Plus Chao's Bolt goes through CoS, and a Destro lock has abit more CC utility than him (Seduce,Fear,Deathcoil,Shadowfury and maybe a Howl of terror if he gets the cast off).

Back to the topic.

You PvErs still get the better things than us PvPrs such as trinkets. Want an example? Bandits Insignia its not even good for PvE and PvErs can get it and Im forced to PvE for it, Only reason it's good is because of the AP when you can get the AP trinket from 25 OS or Greatness or Pyrite (Both of these are good in PvP for melee classes).
PvP armor for a rogue doesn't give much hit, we need to maintain atleast 5% hit to be able to get our poisons on the target, 7% if we don't want our blind to miss off a NE, PvP armor doesn't give enough Attack power either. Some other classes like mages,locks,pallies,priests still need gear from raids because its gives us the stats that we want or the burst, and we don't get it like the emblem system where you can just farm 50 emblems and get a piece. We need to raid for it. If it doesn't drop then we wait for another week or a month or maybe 3 months, By then you'll have your 5 set PvP gear and maybe get to the 2k bracket.



The Fraction Champions aren't even players they're AIs, they switch and CC, and all you have to do is Dispell the CCs, FF a target, CC the healers and you win. You don't have to switch or do anything else. Just CC,FF a target use Defensive CDs when needed like a BoP whenever the priest is being focus'd on by the rogue or the warrior, and dispel the sheep whenever the warrior is sheeped. Use Blessing of sacrifice if you're a pally, and Use a fucking trinket... or Every man for himself... its a PvP fight ffs, not an already planned out PvE fight. If you don't think its fair, then give us PvPers better trinkets (Maybe trinkets like Bandits Insignia) and gear (Like the legendary Healing mace) with better stats and then it'll be fair.

Normal PvErs will never learn.

PvErs that PvP and understands this concept would agree on this and tell you to stfu.

Pretty much what zelcione is saying. "The fight is easy, stfu"

P.S Enchance Shammies without they're wolves = Dead Shammy

[Greid]

I've read all the critting walls of text here, and im still a little confused about the OP's post.

Are you complaining that Faction Champions is too hard because your PvE oriented guild was exposed to things that they feel as "PvE"ers they shouldn't have to deal with?

If so, that makes no sense. The encounter does deal with randomness in the set of people you get. I did it on 25man last night for the first time and my guild handled it well, we used a lot of interesting ideas such as having frost traps in the middle, kiting them through the frost trap, having a lock and a mage cc two targets by switching fear an dsheep when they hit DR. grouping everyone in the middle and fearing them by chaining fears with 3 priests and a lock, having dps DK's or warriors each take a melee and CoI/Hamstring kite them individually with one healer watching all of them, we even had two shadow priests fade kiting back and forth at opposite ends of the map at one point, our raid lead even switched specs to frost-mage and proceeded to take all the melee at once by nova-kiting and good play (hes a former glad)

point is, we did the whole encounter with 2 tanks...nuked their healers down off the bat with heroism, and just played a control game.

This is my favorite encounter by far, and that is because I enjoy pvp because it challenges people to use their characters to their full potential. Personally, I feel that hardcore pve guilds should sometimes require a tabard of brute force to get into some hardmodes.

If you just meant to say that you feel that mini-bosses in 5v5 would be cool, then yeah, that could be neat...completely impractical and against what makes sense, but cool idea

[kalistra]

I'm gonna have to agree that I dont like to Mix PvP and PvE.

BUT my guild also the the 25 mans faction champions boss and even though it was based off of PvP it didnt bother me that it was in a raid. If it was reall PvP I would have been singled out right away beign a healer. It felt like were were fighting a really well geared but very spastic, unorganized 10 man arena where we got 25 people. I think its jsut a way Blizz is trying to make more variation in the fights. There where fights in Ulduar where people had to chang their normal roles and things didnt work like usual.. its part of the game now.

Actually ..rememebr mage tanks in Gruuls?

[Sabertooth92]

Quote by coldethly:
"I hear all the time that pve players cant adapt,that all we do is learn is a script.Im just wondering how well the average arena player would handle haveing a pve encounter dropped on there face.arena players complain and pve gets altered in negative ways.pve players complain about the nerfs and blizzard says nothing."

Quite fine in fact. In case you haven't noticed, many, if not most, of the decent PvPers also raid and, usually, do very well. Why was the first person to get Val'Anyr also a Gladiator? Why are most of the leading PvPers also some of the first to kill new content? Because PvP builds a intuitive player while PvE builds a reactionary one. Neither is a bad thing, its just a fact.

In response to the second point you made about Blizzard not changing the game based on PvE, I'm sorry to say that your sorely misinformed. This game was originally built around PvE and is still predominantly PvE based. Most of the changes made to this game are based on feedback through PvE guilds, not PvPers. That's why when Wrath originally came out, so many adjustments had to be made (if you remember arcane Mages with POM and Hunters with multiple Beastial Wraths) because what tested fine in PvE, broke the PvP balance unbelievably.

Thing that annoys me the most is that people see this and go "hey they are nerfing pve QQQQQQQ," but what Blizzard is really doing is making up for their failure to actually test PvP. So don't feel at all like you're hard done by. You're not.

[idunno]

mages are still one of the top dps classes, with rogues, and locks...its true that druids/shaman can put out some major hurt on bosses, but in our raids atleast its always less than our mages...
7k cat druids and 9k+ mages
...and faction champs is easy...keep ms up and melt the healers first then its smoothe sailing...pretty fun too

[Greid]

Quite fine in fact. In case you haven't noticed, many, if not most, of the decent PvPers also raid and, usually, do very well. Why was the first person to get Val'Anyr also a Gladiator? Why are most of the leading PvPers also some of the first to kill new content? Because PvP builds a intuitive player while PvE builds a reactionary one. Neither is a bad thing, its just a fact.

exactly. No one only pvp's in this game. No One. if that were the case, people dinging 80 would grind forever in BG's, have quest item blues and greens and gradually get their deadly set.

I am not going to outright say that pvp takes more "skill" because wow in itself doesnt require skill, but pvp takes more practice and intelligence. PVE, no matter what your class, is about learning to do your "thing" whether it is: a dps outline, aoeing properly, taunting adds, healing the raid, healing tanks, conserving mana...e.t.c. in the context of a fight.

I play shadow in pve because the first few times i play an encounter (notice my phrasing) I am not my best. As i learn how to play the fight, I get better, multi-dotting properly, avoiding aoe, responding to "singleing-out" mechanics, and my dps and survivability go up. This is virtually the same for every class/spec/role/human being. I pulled 3kish on Jaraxxus my first time and 4.5 the next time.

When you enter the arena, you are playing pve only, it is more complex and less severe. The less severe part is what catches people up. In pve if you get hit by something, you will die. In pvp, if you dont respond properly to something like bladestorm or HoJ or hex or blind or heroism or wolves or repentance or diseases or IBF or retaliation or frost nova or travel form or innervate or stealth or MS or ...you get my point... You can still live.

PvP requires being able to react to things sometimes back to back and move on the fly, kiting, focusing, talking, or whatever, the difference is that rarely one miscue will ruin your match (unless at VERY high ratings where matches are much like pve hardmodes in their precision)

Quote by coldethly:
"I hear all the time that pve players cant adapt,that all we do is learn is a script.Im just wondering how well the average arena player would handle haveing a pve encounter dropped on there face.

You say that you mean the "average" arena player....what is that? the average arena player is probably also an average raider or even a great raider. Yes, most people would be a little overwhelmed with being dropped into firefighter or YS1 or even heartbreaker and orbituary, but in 2 tries they would understand the fight and work around it until it was perfect. Drop an inexperienced player, no matter what they do in the arena with a good RMP team or even an exceptional Mage-Rogue team and if they aren't capable of adapting faster, it doesnt matter how many times they play them, they will lose.

...Sorry, but this is my absolute favorite topic to rant about. I dont mean to flame or judge, i just feel that i have a decent perspective on this game after playing both pve and pvp extensively and want to share with others