Wipes on the Black Knight, whose fault...

[Kethlan]

Here was the group composition for PuG Heroic ToC last night.

Me - Warrior Tank - the siggy is basically accurate, i have added a tiny bit of stam and dodge since. I would like my armory but its tuesday, its ornery today.
Arcane Mage - Was pulling 3k dps
Fury Warrior - 2.8k dps
Hunter (not sure of spec) - 2.8k dps
Holy Paladin - Ulduar/Naxx geared

We wiped the first time due to corpse explosions. Second time, i recieved no heals between the end of phase 2 and the beginning of phase 3 and was one shot when his ghost popped up. At which point the healer started bitching about how my dodge rating must suck, and how i wasn't controlling the army.

The next three wipes we didnt even manage to down the first phase, at which point i noticed she was barely even healing me anymore. Did more healing from Enraged regen, than she did.

Now what i am trying to figure out here, is did i screw up somehow (other than pugging), or is there a reasonable way to control the ghouls to keep them off the ranged, or is this encounter just really hard for a paladin to heal? She was using ret aura if that makes a difference. And i just thought while reading this that i seem to remember being diseased for extended periods of time. Are his diseases uncleanseble? Basically very rarely do i have a group blame its problems on me, so i am trying to find out if i did something wrong here, so i can correct it in the future.

[Deleted]

In Phase 2 it´s realy simple to control the ghouls. First let them all spawn. Then thunderclap and aoe taunt afterwards. Back a few steps to get all of them togheter and then shockwave to stun them. Then it´s just to cleave and thunderclap spam. Ofc 1 or 2 could go loose but you have both taunt and mocking blow for that. It´s smart to use shieldwall during this aswell because you might end up taking a lot of damage during this because of all ghouls hitting you and the dps might let 1 or 2 ghouls explode.

btw don´t pug that instance.

[Niroshi]

Sounds like that healer was pretty fail to be honest with you, I've done that instance with less gear than you on a Warrior alt with lesser geared Healers and had 0 issues whatsoever.

[doomchken]

I have a resto druid and Holy pally and will say this is harder for a pally but still trivial. On my druid i can sleep through it and can kite the zombies on me anyway with Roots and cyclone.

However the pally should have stood next to you and pop'd bubble while spamming HL there is no reason his/her healing should have been low even if he was getting hit he can spam HL its only a 1.5 second cast.

[Erasure]

Obviously it's the healers fault if he/she can't keep you alive during P1. Damage is laughably low in P1, have healed through it on my f'ing retri pala (in retri gear).

Dps looks fine for a pug, so can't really blame them. However, if anybody gets hit by ghoul explosions they're mentally challenged and/or blind.

No, his diseases are very cleansable, you just had a horrible healer.

People often tend to blame someone else (tank blames the healer, healer blames the tank and/or dps) to not look like clueless retards.

[Soulbender]

i actually did switch to healing a few times to check this (was told it was hard)

the last part is indeed dodgy, you'll feel the lack of aoe heals as a pally.

But every time, i could heal the group ok, althought i had my hands full for sure (click spam festival)
Only once did i lose someone, and it was a dps. And it's my offspec gear.

Summary : beacon +SS on tank, HL group, FL/HS tank for hot, repeat. If tank dies, /kick.

[Kethlan]

thank you for the control comment, made me realize the problem. The AoE were afraid to nuke the ghouls. I forgot in all the heals bitching. The mage and hunter thought the ghouls exploded when you killed them, so they didnt AoE them.

And the holydin was standing about 20 yards way...behind me in fact....hell they were all spread out.

But you are right, i could have done a better job of controlling the undead monstricities. I didnt use Challenging in time i think. IE too many were out of range.

And i do remember from my recount, that i very rarely saw a Holy Light. But being unexperienced with Holy paladins, i dont know what heals they typically use. My usual healer is a Holy Priest.

[Sidonis]

Didn't have any trouble on my paladin healing this...beacon+SS tank, kept judgment rolling for haste, kept the FL hot rolling on tank, and just spammed HL on the melee. In p3 I bubbled to avoid the stacking dot, popped divine sacrifice while bubbled to lower damage on everyone, and kept right on spamming HL. DPS burned the crap out of him in P3 but my HL's were fast enough + HL splash healing that it was never a problem.

[Aniria22]

I have a resto druid and Holy pally and will say this is harder for a pally but still trivial. On my druid i can sleep through it and can kite the zombies on me anyway with Roots and cyclone.

However the pally should have stood next to you and pop'd bubble while spamming HL there is no reason his/her healing should have been low even if he was getting hit he can spam HL its only a 1.5 second cast.

HL what? i do this in my sleep as a holy pally. aura mastery, beacon,SS, DS/bubble go a long way.

but yeah the healer failed miserably. probably a 3.1 junkie, most holy pallies are bad now as you can see.


oh and to answer your question we spam Flash of light with SS on the tank + Beacon and HL when needed to . Holy shock for those moments where you cant get a cast off in time and ofc judge for haste.

[doomchken]

And i do remember from my recount, that i very rarely saw a Holy Light. But being unexperienced with Holy paladins, i dont know what heals they typically use. My usual healer is a Holy Priest.

Good pally healers use Holy Light because they know how to play there class and get back mana, bad ones use FoL which is a horrible heal. If you are doing serious content and see a pally who doesn't use Holy light most of the time find a new heraler. I am not saying Flash of Light is always bad I am talking about the people who only use Flash of Light or only use Holy light occsionally

[Cinnabono]

Whenever I've done this as a Hunter I just slap volley and multi shot in 2nd phase and target out the ghouls first. For healing as a druid I just pop a rejuvenation, a regrowth, one lifebloom stack, and if needed use swiftmend if below 75% or Nourish if below 60%. Phase 3 is fairly easy as a druid if you have the DPS to down it quickly. I can see how it is stressful on a holy paladin being mostly single target healing/tank healing.

[Deleted]

As a rogue here I tricks of the trade the tank in p1, in p2 i pop evasion, blade flurry and AoE the zombies down, in p3 i tricks of the trade the tank again and use adrenaline rush and killing spree to nuke the boss down asap.

This entire instance is a joke =)

[Aniria22]

Good pally healers use Holy Light because they know how to play there class and get back mana, bad ones use FoL which is a horrible heal. If you are doing serious content and see a pally who doesn't use Holy light most of the time find a new heraler. I am not saying Flash of Light is always bad I am talking about the people who only use Flash of Light or only use Holy light occsionally

dont want to get into a different topic or start a flame war but bad holy pallies Spam HL unless its needed for the encounter but the same goes for Flash of Light. like i said it depends on the scenario etc.

[Sidonis]

dont want to get into a different topic or start a flame war but bad holy pallies Spam HL unless its needed for the encounter but the same goes for Flash of Light. like i said it depends on the scenario etc.

with people stacking the debuff up in P3, wth wouldn't I save my divine plea and mana pot for right before P3, so I've got a ton of mana for dumping HL? With beacon on the tank, and myself bubbled + divine sacrifice, I can sit there and go HL dps 1, HL dps 2, HL dps 3, HL dps 1, HL dps 2, HL dps 3, renew FoL hot on tank, rinse and repeat.

Edit - Betweeen my haste, JotP, and Light's Grace, we're talking 1.41 sec HL casts, without Bloodlust/Heroism.

[doomchken]

Quote from: doomchken on August 25, 2009, 03:52:42 pm
Good pally healers use Holy Light because they know how to play there class and get back mana, bad ones use FoL which is a horrible heal. If you are doing serious content and see a pally who doesn't use Holy light most of the time find a new heraler. I am not saying Flash of Light is always bad I am talking about the people who only use Flash of Light or only use Holy light occsionally


dont want to get into a different topic or start a flame war but bad holy pallies Spam HL unless its needed for the encounter but the same goes for Flash of Light. like i said it depends on the scenario etc.

I was trying to get in on the end that it is based on situation but honestly the way i see it is you really shouldn't go oom spamming HL so if they person has taken more then 6-7k damage i use HL with the tank beaconed since he will need the healing too and i would rather overheal then underheal. obviously if the person has only taken 2k damage i will FoL or HS them.

[Megatwan]

herro fren,

pally tank here:

-i spam dispell on ppl when i can and it seems to come off?
-obviously pro dps in pahse 1 and drop the ghoul silly fast and make it easy
-ghoul explodes and someone gets hit: thier fault for not gfto'ing
-ppl die in pahse 3? healer sux or dps took too long
-ppl die because blacknight or ghouls beat em down excessively? l2taunt moar

/2cents

[Aniria22]

I was trying to get in on the end that it is based on situation but honestly the way i see it is you really shouldn't go oom spamming HL so if they person has taken more then 6-7k damage i use HL with the tank beaconed since he will need the healing too and i would rather overheal then underheal. obviously if the person has only taken 2k damage i will FoL or HS them.

Yeah i see what your saying now.

@Sidonis you shouldn't have to Mana pot or divine plea in there. if you are, your doing it wrong.

[doomchken]

^ gj
with your skill at briefly stating everything congress should higher you bet the healthcare bill would be 1 page long

[Kethlan]

I was trying to get in on the end that it is based on situation but honestly the way i see it is you really shouldn't go oom spamming HL so if they person has taken more then 6-7k damage i use HL with the tank beaconed since he will need the healing too and i would rather overheal then underheal. obviously if the person has only taken 2k damage i will FoL or HS them.

about 15 seconds into the fight i was typically taken down to less than 10k health. The heals never got me back up over 24k again. Which would be fine, i dont need to be topped off here, but it would have been nice to get a heal between the phases, lol.

But from the look of it, we both could have done better. She was pissed enough that i doubt i ever need to worry about running with her again, but perhaps i will do better next time. Thanks for the insight

[Imhullu]

Nuke the boss, never worry about the ghouls, and l2move when they STOP to cast explosion.
Simple as that. I've never had an issue in here...