When would it be best to use potion?

[Huntdanoobs]

My question is, is it best to use potion of speed as soon as hte fight starts so i get the stacks up faster, or should i use it once i get 5 stacks?

[Huntdanoobs]

I guess it doesn't matter?

[Adamson]

I would use an insane strength potion.

We usually wait until 2-3 minutes in to pop heroism, if you're using a speed pot I save mine for the last ~20% of a boss fight. That way it's less likely to go to waste.

Using a haste pot during a heroism, or to get 5 stacks up is a bad idea.

[Prentice]

Your best overall damage gain is to use your speed pot at the same time as your Avenging Wrath and other trinkets, but not during the same period in which you have bloodlust/heroism. The attack speed gains of using a haste pot are reduced when under the effects of bloodlust/heroism because haste rating doesn't play nice with haste effects (which are applied as a speed % increase).

You should not use your pot to get your stack up. While your dps may be lower during the stacking phase, you will gain more out of the potion when your stack is at 5 and you are getting full value damage procs and more of them.

DO NOT USE INSANE STRENGTH!!!! Supporting information inc.

EDIT: Use your speed pot during Lust/Hero. Its the best time to do so.

[Prentice]

Excerpt from EJ:
"120 strength is still not worth anywhere near as much as 500 haste according to rawr values for my gear (simply taking the value of the gems and multiplying to get values for the two figures since both pots are 15 second durations), it's possible that at low gear levels that insane strength could be much closer but in tier8/9 gear that amount of haste is still quite an effective damage boost.

I know you were probably hoping for hard accurate figures but there's not really much more to it than the above.

120 strength is worth 223.62 dps and 500 haste is worth 435.88 dps according to the gem numbers."

[Huntdanoobs]

Thanks for the advice, one more question is, i can only use the speed pot once per fight correct?

[Greid]

you can technically use one before the tank enters combat and it wont count towards your potion lockout for the fight. This isnt as useful for melee as it is for casters as you will probably only get something like 5-10 seconds of use at best

for casters however, popping wild magic before a pull will affect your initial attacks and for classes with dots taht are cast once, this will apply the crit bonus for the whole fight (Shadow priests and warlocks with SWP and Corruption respectively). Just a cool side-note about potions

[Prentice]

you can technically use one before the tank enters combat and it wont count towards your potion lockout for the fight. This isnt as useful for melee as it is for casters as you will probably only get something like 5-10 seconds of use at best

for casters however, popping wild magic before a pull will affect your initial attacks and for classes with dots taht are cast once, this will apply the crit bonus for the whole fight (Shadow priests and warlocks with SWP and Corruption respectively). Just a cool side-note about potions

This is exactly correct. If you are willing to blow a speed pot to only get 8-10 seconds of use out of it, go nuts. Popping a pot before you enter combat starts the potion cooldown timer, but does not count towards your one per combat. This is most effective for tanking. The armor potions increase armor by 3500 for 2 minutes. Tanks can actually get 4 consecutive minutes worth of effect out of these potions in a single fight.

[Adamson]

Prentice, is that info as of 3.2? or in 3.1? Because haste's value dropped a LOT from 3.1 - 3.2

[Prentice]

Prentice, is that info as of 3.2? or in 3.1? Because haste's value dropped a LOT from 3.1 - 3.2

That info is as of today.

I can't remember the exact values but if you recall the redcape values, you can crunch a few ballpark numbers on it. I recall the values looking something like this.

1 Strength = 138
1 Haste = 67

138 x 120= 16560
67 x 500= 33500

While the 16k and 33k numbers are meaningless, it shows you how the values compare right now. The haste pot, as described in the EJ excerpt is worth 100% more than the insane strength pot.

[Adamson]

While the 16k and 33k numbers are meaningless, it shows you how the values compare right now. The haste pot, as described in the EJ excerpt is worth 100% more than the insane strength pot.

Understood. Thanks for clearing it up I haven't looked at EJ since sunday.

[Ronark]

Your best overall damage gain is to use your speed pot at the same time as your Avenging Wrath and other trinkets, but not during the same period in which you have bloodlust/heroism. The attack speed gains of using a haste pot are reduced when under the effects of bloodlust/heroism because haste rating doesn't play nice with haste effects (which are applied as a speed % increase).

You should not use your pot to get your stack up. While your dps may be lower during the stacking phase, you will gain more out of the potion when your stack is at 5 and you are getting full value damage procs and more of them.

DO NOT USE INSANE STRENGTH!!!! Supporting information inc.

Actually you gain more swings in if you do use a Speed potion during Heroism/Bloodlust. Below is the given Haste formula:

Base speed / {(1+ Haste effect one)*(1+ Haste effect two)* … *( 1+ [Haste rating
one + Haste rating two + … + Haste rating N]/2521)}

Assume you have 2.3% Haste and a 3.6 weapon speed (taken from my Armory).
Swing Timer / (1+0) * haste from Haste rating
3.6 seconds / {(1)*(1+ [58 + 0]/2521)} = 3.519 swing time

With just Heroism we get:
Swing Timer / Heroism (30%) * haste from Haste rating
3.6 seconds / {(1+ 30/100)*(1+ [58 + 0]/2521)} = 2.706 swing time for 40 seconds.

With just a Speed potion we would have:
Swing Timer / (1+0) * haste from Haste rating
3.6 seconds / {(1)*(1+ [58 + 500]/2521)} = 2.948 swing time for 15 seconds

Now assume you also used a Speed potion during Heroism.
Swing Timer / Heroism (30%) * haste from Haste rating
3.6 seconds / {(1+ 30/100)*(1+ [58 + 500]/2521)} = 2.267 swing time for 15 seconds, then 2.706
swing time for 25 seconds

Now say we are DPSing for a 55 second interval. If we attack with just our modified weapon speed of 3.519, we will get 15 full swings in. If we use Heroism followed DIRECTLY by a Haste potion when Heroism is finished, we will have 19 full swings. If we use Heroism AND a Speed potion at the same time, we will have 20 full swings.

[Smashfist]

Does haste suffer from DR? Never really paid attention to it but if there is a DR on haste your calcs could be much different in a raid buffed scenario Ronark.

[Ronark]

Does haste suffer from DR? Never really paid attention to it but if there is a DR on haste your calcs could be much different in a raid buffed scenario Ronark.

No DR from Haste. The only Raid buff I left out was IT/WF totem, and Righteous Aura/Moonkin haste.

[Prentice]

No DR from Haste. The only Raid buff I left out was IT/WF totem, and Righteous Aura/Moonkin haste.

The average raiding DK DPS will have Imp Icy Talons. You will not want Heroism/Bloodlust + Haste potion + IIT. If I am reading your maths correctly, you are saying that you gain 1 swing with Lust + Pot. Is that all??

[Ronark]

The average raiding DK DPS will have Imp Icy Talons. You will not want Heroism/Bloodlust + Haste potion + IIT. If I am reading your maths correctly, you are saying that you gain 1 swing with Lust + Pot. Is that all??

One full extra swing when compared to Lust then Pot, yep.

Basically it showed that since Haste is multiplicative, it is more beneficial to stack them all together.

[Prentice]

I'd also like to add that your swing speed is terribly slow. With a 3.6 speed weapon equipped, I have a swing speed of 3.23 with just haste from gear. By logging on and seeing the addition of my Imp Ret Aura, my swing speed falls to 3.13. Without adding Imp Icy Talons, We have already DR'd haste with its first multiplicative modifier (Imp Ret) and we'll assume we do it again in the raid with IIT. Pure haste as a stat loses so much more value when you get lust/hero. I'll try it out tonight just to verify the DR that I am almost sure of, but a haste pot stacked with all of those other effects (lust included) has almost no effect on your swing speed.

[Ronark]

I'd also like to add that your swing speed is terribly slow. With a 3.6 speed weapon equipped, I have a swing speed of 3.23 with just haste from gear. By logging on and seeing the addition of my Imp Ret Aura, my swing speed falls to 3.13. Without adding Imp Icy Talons, We have already DR'd haste with its first multiplicative modifier (Imp Ret) and we'll assume we do it again in the raid with IIT. Pure haste as a stat loses so much more value when you get lust/hero. I'll try it out tonight just to verify the DR that I am almost sure of, but a haste pot stacked with all of those other effects (lust included) has almost no effect on your swing speed.

I'll try it in ToC raid in about 20 minutes as well: They SHOULD stack together, since they are multiplicative.

[Prentice]

Using your math with my own character stats:

Now assume you also used a Speed potion during Heroism with Imp Icy Talons and Imp Ret Aura.
Swing Timer / Heroism (30%) * haste from Haste rating + Imp Icy Talons + Imp Ret Aura
3.6 seconds / {(1+ 30/100)*(1+ [289 + 500]/2521)*(1 + 20/100)*(1 + 3/100)}= 1.7069 swing time for 15 seconds, then 2.009 swing time for 25 seconds
(w/ pot) 3.6 seconds / {(1.3) * (1.313) * (1.2) * (1.03)}= 1.706
(w/o pot)3.6 seconds / {(1.3) * (1.115) * (1.2) * (1.03)}= 2.009

I will check out all these numbers tonight and see how close my character sheet gets to these values.

[Ronark]

Using your math with my own character stats:

Now assume you also used a Speed potion during Heroism with Imp Icy Talons and Imp Ret Aura.
Swing Timer / Heroism (30%) * haste from Haste rating + Imp Icy Talons + Imp Ret Aura
3.6 seconds / {(1+ 30/100)*(1+ [289 + 500]/2521)*(1 + 20/100)*(1 + 3/100)}= 1.7069 swing time for 15 seconds, then 2.009 swing time for 25 seconds
(w/ pot) 3.6 seconds / {(1.3) * (1.313) * (1.2) * (1.03)}= 1.706
(w/o pot)3.6 seconds / {(1.3) * (1.115) * (1.2) * (1.03)}= 2.009

I will check out all these numbers tonight and see how close my character sheet gets to these values.

Alright np. The math looks right form what I can tell.