Protadin needs a few threat tips

[Varon]

as is said you are here to have arguments not for any advises since you also turn out to not even be able to look over minor typos where you stil understand what I was saying ... /gratz

also the the people that are yelling at me claiming crusade is better than SotP at ToC: i raid ToC as holy, Ulduar as prot and pugging (mostly naxx) as prot.

Naxx: Undead ... Crusade = +6% to ALL damage SotP = 5% dmg on seal porcs and DoT
Ulduar: mechanic and giants enough humaniods ... Crusade = +6%+3% to ALL damage SotP = 5% dmg on seal porcs and DoT
ToC: humanoids, elementals, demons, undead ... Crusade = +6% to ALL damage SotP = 5% dmg on seal porcs and DoT ... ok Northrend Beasts is only 3% to all damage

so 5% to seal procs and DoT is better than 6% to all damage ... clearly ...


[Edit: fixed some numbers]

[Nillo]

Naxx: Undead ... Crusade = +6% to ALL damage SotP = 5% dmg on seal porcs and DoT
Ulduar: enough humaniods ... Crusade = +6% to ALL damage SotP = 5% dmg on seal porcs and DoT
ToC: humanoids, elementals, demons, undead ... Crusade = +6% to ALL damage SotP = 5% dmg on seal porcs and DoT ... ok Northrend Beasts is only 3% to all damage

Most of the Ulduar bosses are either mechanical or giants, but I'd still recommend going for Vindication + PoJ over full SotP.

[Varon]

ok, well my mistake ... didn't really look but as you mention it it makes sense ... stupid me ...

[arel00]

take a moment Chronalis and read the thread. the only thing i was wrong about was the JotJ debuff, that doesnt make me ignorant. also the "do you even play a prot paladin" comment was well justified for someone who insisted on using Divine shield as a main tank, even by mistake. anyway feel free to lock this thread now that i've had a few insightful replies.
well none but a few people actually gave me any tips, most of them preferred to flame me over not knowing that JotJ works on bosses. a few people suggested 969 which i actually tried in-game and even though i still havent mastered it, i did notice a TPS increase of ~1000-1500 tps.
i'm not a troll and i dont have a high learn "resitance". but i will disagree with stuff that are plain wrong.

also the the people that are yelling at me claiming crusade is better than SotP at ToC: i raid ToC as holy, Ulduar as prot and pugging (mostly naxx) as prot.

I resisted this far to reply here, since your attitude, and by all means not only yours but that of some answers aswell, have brought me to the point of a very uncivilized response. Now that I'm cool, I can state one point that I think you've missed, as well as other people.

The difference between SotP and Crusade is small, no matter how you look at it.
The real point behind a Crusader build is utility, and that simply cannot be argued. Going 18 Retri means you can pick up *both* Vindication and Pursuit of Justice.
Vindication is, hands down, the 2nd best source of mitigation you have, beaten only by JotJ. While you may think "what's 540AP", remember that we're talking NPCs here, not players. Reducing AP by 540 on bosses has been *proved* to be a 13-15% damage reduction from physical sources.
As for Pursuit of Justice, I won't even begin it. It's simply a must-have, hands down, especially on fights with lot of mobility going around. If you think I'm mistaken, I suggest you look up people like Kungen, who, being a warrior without such talents, has *always* enchanted his boots with a speed-increase. ALWAYS, since they were first introduced.

Considering talent-vs-talent may be good for math, but as real tanks in real content, we can and should look at the whole build, and the consequences of following one path or another. And when you take into account the utility, 53-18 beats any SotP build, by far.
Also, don't fall into the trick of "I have a DK/warrior", so they do that for you.
You won't always have one. They won't always be on your target. Even more, the DK may very well not be frost, meaning you'll lose a flat 4% from having him use IT instead of you using JotJ. Thunderclap means wasting rage and time, and warriors have already enough threat problems.
Vindication is even more crucial, since *no* warrior tank will have Imp.Demo Shout, and almost no druid will have Imp.Demo Roar. Improved Demo Shout falls on the shoulders of DPS warriors usually, who may as well spend those points in more DPS-increasing talents, and not waste rage/cds on it. You can give a very strong debuff (remember we're talking a 15% here) for free, without spending extra mana, without gcds, just on your normal rotation. On more than one target at time, which is extremely strong for some fights (solo-tank IC10 HM, for one, or Yogg+0).

As for threat, yes, 969 is the best advice people could give you. Still (and mind it, I do use 969 mostly) keep using your brain and don't get stuck on math. Your idea of a priority list shows you're thinking, and that's good. Chronalis made a very good point about rotations.
As for threat itself, I won't try to post a wall of formulas to back up all I've said, neither I will for utility and such. It's boring for everyone and I'm honest enough not to bullshit people with random stuff. Take me by the word, I'm not trying to "force you", or "make a nub of you". I'm just giving advice I think you may need, or find useful.
As for backing up words, just know this. I'm using a 53-18, with a mix of T8/T9, and I'm never under 9k TPS, not I've been "out-threated" by anyone in my guild. On fights where Crusade kicks in, I'm over 10k TPS easily. Try it. I think you'll like both the TPS and the extra utility. Just try, then yo can go back to SotP if you want, that much is up to you alone.

[Bralaap]

take a moment Chronalis and read the thread. the only thing i was wrong about was the JotJ debuff, that doesnt make me ignorant. also the "do you even play a prot paladin" comment was well justified for someone who insisted on using Divine shield as a main tank, even by mistake. anyway feel free to lock this thread now that i've had a few insightful replies.

You only read latest posts it seems: if you look at the edits in my post you see 2 things: I correct myself, and I explain something to you. This post still doesn't justify the things you said all over. And saying thing like "do you even play a prot paladin" while 1) not knowing 969-rotation and 2) your remarks about JotJ and 3) the way you react to people trying to help tells me that you don't know your class yourself and don't want any help at all (because that shows your ignorance).

[conaan]

People speak of 969. It's the optimal rotation.
However, you don't NEED to follow it. There's some basic tips you should follow with any Tankadin rotation though;
- Holy Shield has priority over everything
- Bursting in an AS is good, but only if HS is up, and you won't go OOM by doing so (you shouldn't go OOM in PvE anyway)
- You CAN cast Exorcism on slow-hitting mobs/bosses, but only do it RIGHT AFTER the swing lands, and make sure HS is up first

I personally follow an FCFS style rotation, but always give priority to Holy Shield. It allows me to put out bursts of threat (was managing 13K TPS bursts in ToC-25 earlier). The beauty of it is that you're putting out bursts, but cooldowns on abilities prevent you from having to wait for another cooldown to be up (although sometimes, you can feel out of sync with your abilities and will be waiting a lot until you get back in sync). There's no particular rotation, besides making sure HS is always up, and using as many abilities as you can. This includes exorcism, provided you follow the tips above (so you don't get yourself insta-gibbed).

chronalis, FCFS is for ret dps, not prot, 969 keeps 100% uptime on holy shield, and around 90% uptime on every other spell, its been proven to do more sustained threat, the only reason you should ever deviate from 969 is to sub AS in for holy shield or to substitute a Hosalv/Hosac/Dsac for a GCD

as for going imp HoJ, imp HoJ gives you rather small situational use especially when you have so many other options, Dsac/DG gives you some EH from SS, reckoning gives you some tps, all imp HoJ gives you is that trash interrupt every once in a while, or the boss interrupt because you forgot to set up some sort of interrupt rotation



as for this:

and seals of the pure will not factor into be be greater damage, because IMO the paladin that lined that did not say what his crit was for testing sotp versus Crusade + conviction, because I guarantee that anything above 15% unbuffed will pull ahead, esp if you can peak to 35% crit rating fully raid buffed with procs.

the linked thread with that graph has his gearset, which is pretty close to what he has now i think, look at his gearset, but remember, with each % of crit, the dps increase slowly deteriorates (cant remember the exact rate, or exactly why, if questioned, ill go and pull it out of maintankadin again)

[MestHoop]

the only reason you should ever deviate from 969 is to sub AS in for holy shield or to substitute a Hosalv/Hosac/Dsac for a GCD

I presume you mean stationary.
Because while kiting sometimes the mob goes outside melee range and then you're better off just using a judge, AS or a cons if you're not walking far (grob for example).