Raiding dificulty is messed up

[veemon_ro]

Yogg+0 is still fun, as is Algalon. You should probably see them before you comment on them, it tends to make your comments on them informed and actually useful, not purely speculative.

Normally I wouldn't comment on them, how ever people who never done them are reocmanding them for me. So if they didn't do it themselves why do they tell others to do it?

Wiping on encounters like Kolo and Razorscale shows your guild has no coordination and no discipline. Let me guess: people were chaining eye beams through the raid, offtank missed a few adds, and the MT and OT didn't properly taunt at 2-3 debuffs of crush armor. Hmm....

I completly 100% agree. The guild I made has no coordonation as its pretty much like a pug. I have yet to sort out the good players from the bad ones.

Yet the guild with no coordonation and no discipline you just mentioned had no problem clearing t9 content and yet fail on t8 content. Shouldn't it be at least the other way around? Where we would clear t8 but have some dificulty on t9?!

[Defmage]

Quit fucking crying.

[Firegod1385]

Im sorry to say but its not the same #1feeling like you had in tbc that you get from killing ilidan and youd go to sunwell.
First of all the reward was imediate. #2Right after youd kill hard boss X youd get to experience boss Y. Not by killing 5 extremly hard bosses to get to another boss.
Secondly, algalon isn't even a proper boss, its just an encounter that you get to do 1 hr per week. For me thats not fun. In fact it can be insanely stresfull if a tank has to afk or gets a dc during that 1 hr of tries.

Finally and the most important thing is that you can see algalon in 10 man by doing the hard modes there.

While again you might say its easy, theres usualy several people in the guild that dont care about the penis enlargment that you get from killing algalon and would want to take the easy way in wich is doing the 10 man hm.

Not to mention that you dont get ANYTHING for killing algalon in the first place. Doesnt unlock a new boss, the items dont matter much and personally i don't play for e peen so i don't care about the title either.

And maybe im wrong here but I don't hear people saying what an awesome fight algalon is and how amazingly tuned and wonderfull it is. In fact i doubt it compares with tbc bosses such as ilidan or even vanilla bosses such as cthun

#1 This is an opinion and thats not fair. You cannot base your reasoning why you dont like something because of feelings and state it as a fact. Just because YOU do not think Algalon is a proper boss worth working towards does not mean shit to me. Why was Illidan that much better to work towards? Its just the end boss - as is Algalon in certain respects. However, Illidan has alot of lore attached to him that makes him a bad ass (and go ahead and lol lore me, i dont care, regardless of what people say about this game lore *IS* important and *DOES* hold a huge amount of players/ interest in the game)

#2 Just LOL. I hate to sound like an ass, but seriously dude? You just said the same thing twice, worded differently.

Killing a boss on hardmode, lets you go to the next hardmode boss to EXPERIENCE THAT ENCOUNTER.
So Killing a hard X boss lets you go EXPERIENCE hard Y boss.

(See, same thing, worded differently)

Wiping on encounters like Kolo and Razorscale shows your guild has no coordination and no discipline. Let me guess: people were chaining eye beams through the raid, offtank missed a few adds, and the MT and OT didn't properly taunt at 2-3 debuffs of crush armor. Hmm....

I know I only perform in the 10 man version - and maybe that offers different challenges. But this just doesnt even make sense to me.

The FIRST time we went to Ulduar, (and everytime since then) We have 1 shotted Razorscale (and get the 1 fly achiev) and 1 shot Kologarn. They are not even remotely hard. Auriaya is not hard either - the pull is bad, thats it.

The week after ToC came out, we wanted to try it. We only had 9 on, but we said F it, we'll try it anyway. We wiped about 6 times, getting roughly 50-75% through the Jormungers before me and the Holy priest were completely OOM. We did not look up strategies at ALL, none of us knew any of the mechanics, we adapted as we saw them and it was good fun.

We worked out strategies for the first boss till we had him down, and then only got a few attempts on the Jormungers before we decided to down a few bosses in Ulduar for the week. (We only raid 1 night a week, and thus, we wanted some loot for the night )

Now you can say we "failed" for not reading everything, but frankly, thats whats making the game boring. I'm tired of knowing what to do on an encounter BEFORE I EVEN SEE IT. How is that fun? How does that make the boss challenging? Go play any Final fantasy game where you follow the guide books, and look at the last boss before you get to him - so you are built and prepared to fight the boss. You will DESTROY him and wonder who could have thought it was hard. Simply because you had too much information and ruined it for yourself.

As to why you couldnt down Ulduar bosses VS ToC bosses? There could be a multitude of reasons:

1) People were trying harder for ToC cause its "new" and slacked in Ulduar cause its "easy"
2) (Similar to 1) People stopped caring / were not as attentitve
3) It was a fluke - Shit was unexpected / random burst damage was not prepared for and it caught them offguard. Think about any night you've beenn to a raid with people you know and you HAVE downed the boss and failed the next time? Same thing - It happens.

And that was with your one group of people, unless I see more evidence of people claiming ToC to be as retardedly eaiser than Ulduar as you claim, I can only assume its fluke or something similar.

[veemon_ro]

#1 This is an opinion and thats not fair. You cannot base your reasoning why you dont like something because of feelings and state it as a fact. Just because YOU do not think Algalon is a proper boss worth working towards does not mean shit to me. Why was Illidan that much better to work towards? Its just the end boss - as is Algalon in certain respects. However, Illidan has alot of lore attached to him that makes him a bad ass (and go ahead and lol lore me, i dont care, regardless of what people say about this game lore *IS* important and *DOES* hold a huge amount of players/ interest in the game)

While I completly agree that an opinion is not supposed to be based on feelings, my guild has done swp before. When we where whiping weeks on kalecgos i didn't hear one peep or one q.q out of the raiders we had.
Yet when wotlk came and we've had pretty much the same people still, i heared ALOT of complains about whiping on XT hard mode as several members wanted us to just clear ulduar, even tho we were making progress and took the boss to 20%.
So I dunno, either the people changed completly or maybe the reward for doing a hardmode wasn't enough to motivate them.

As for algalon, well...as i said in the past you did boss X to see boss Y. Now you do boss A B C D E F to see boss Y.
You can see that the reward has majorly diminished.
Boss Y is also a boss that you can do 1 hr per week and you can see it in the 10 man version of the instance.
So the magic of exploring an unique boss is again ruined by the 10 man option.
I also fully agree with the lore and think that blizz is not taking full advantage of the awesome world they created. How ever i didn't decide they should put algalon there now did i?
Now if yog saron was the actual optional boss or they would of put something with more powerfull lore, perhaps the boss itself would be more memorable by people.
But so far I have yet to see algalon awesome fight GG blizz posts on the EU forums (maybe they're on the US?) how ever back in TBC there were alot of M`uru awesome fights gg blizz topics.

#2 Just LOL. I hate to sound like an ass, but seriously dude? You just said the same thing twice, worded differently.

Killing a boss on hardmode, lets you go to the next hardmode boss to EXPERIENCE THAT ENCOUNTER.
So Killing a hard X boss lets you go EXPERIENCE hard Y boss.

In ulduar you could choose any boss you want and do the hard mode. Also you can't honestly compare killing Felmyst to go deeper into the instance and face the twins for the very first time with killing felmyst just to get a more buffed up version of felmyst.
Again, its just feelings but when you have a guild with 30+raiders, if only 5 of those people aren't motivated enough NOT to cancel their account and take a break till the new major content then you're pretty much fubar.

Now you can say we "failed" for not reading everything, but frankly, thats whats making the game boring. I'm tired of knowing what to do on an encounter BEFORE I EVEN SEE IT. How is that fun? How does that make the boss challenging? Go play any Final fantasy game where you follow the guide books, and look at the last boss before you get to him - so you are built and prepared to fight the boss. You will DESTROY him and wonder who could have thought it was hard. Simply because you had too much information and ruined it for yourself.

Back in the day where bosses had 10+ abilities and every one of them could whipe the raid, reading tactics would spare you on hours of whipes.
In wotlk bosses have just 2-3 abilities where if you fail on them you get punished by loosing a bit of hp that can be healed. Very few bosses actually break this rule. There for reading tactics isn't necesary anymore.
So when I went to TOC all I did was read the boss's abilities on mmo champion, not actually read a strategy guide or anything.

As to why you couldnt down Ulduar bosses VS ToC bosses? There could be a multitude of reasons:

1) People were trying harder for ToC cause its "new" and slacked in Ulduar cause its "easy"
2) (Similar to 1) People stopped caring / were not as attentitve
3) It was a fluke - Shit was unexpected / random burst damage was not prepared for and it caught them offguard. Think about any night you've beenn to a raid with people you know and you HAVE downed the boss and failed the next time? Same thing - It happens.

Yes all those reasons are possible and this is why i asked a question on the thread. Are other guilds experiencing this? and it seems the answer was Yes, toc is easyer then ulduar wich is why its messed up.
Its not a qq thread, since im not going omfg im gonna quit, but its just a tad dissapointing if ice crown will be easyer then toc if this trend will follow

And that was with your one group of people, unless I see more evidence of people claiming ToC to be as retardedly eaiser than Ulduar as you claim, I can only assume its fluke or something similar.

read page 1 and page 2

Patch 3.2 is a free epic patch. The raid instance of the Argent Coliseum has EASIER bosses but drops BETTER loot. Even pugs with 25 man naxxramas gear are easily pugging it. I go ther with my main and alt for easy epics and emblems. We one or two shotted first three raid bosses on 25 man mode with people barely knowing what to do. I doubt the heroic dificulty will be much harder. The bosses will have more HP and hit harder, but there are no other elements that make the encounter harder. The boss does not gain any other abilities or anything.

yes

ToC is a joke and it really shows what WoW is becoming.
Waiting on HMs but I don't have too much hope.
Might be a good time for me to quit like half of our raiders who already did.
It's pretty sad, I loved WoW, but that's cleary the last straw. A mmo in which the only end game is grinding epics isn't my idea of fun.

ToC patch was meant to be free loots basically and so is ony when it comes out i think they are just allowing people to get geared to try ICC i kinda believe ICC will be very challenging maybe on par with bt before patch and bliz wants people to have the epics for that so there is less focus on o i need so much grinding and time to go to ICC its just ok lets try and spend the next couple days on this boss or something

[Firegod1385]

Back in the day where bosses had 10+ abilities and every one of them could whipe the raid, reading tactics would spare you on hours of whipes.
In wotlk bosses have just 2-3 abilities where if you fail on them you get punished by loosing a bit of hp that can be healed. Very few bosses actually break this rule. There for reading tactics isn't necesary anymore.
So when I went to TOC all I did was read the boss's abilities on mmo champion, not actually read a strategy guide or anything.

I dont know what bosses you are talking about with 10+ abilities, thats just a lie.

The renowned C'Thun, master of all bosses apparently, had:

Eye beams
Dark Glare
Eye Tentacles
Claw Tentacles
Giant Claw Tentacles
Giant Eye Tentacles
And his stomach room

Thats 7.

Compare to.. KT (Everyone hates Naxx so I ahve to compare to naxx)

Opening add phase

Frostbolt
Aoe Frostbolt
Shadow fissure
Detonate Mana
Frost blast
Chains of Kel'Thuzad (heroic only)
His adds

If I discredit the opening phase - its stupid easy, mostly waste of time.

He has SEVEN skills. (I count his adds as 1 skill - i counted all 4 different adds of C'thun as a different skill)

Compare that to.. Yogg'Saron.
P1
Sara's Fervor
Sara's Blessing
Sara's Anger
Guardians of Yogg-Saron

P2
Sanity
Psychosis
Malady of the Mind
Brain Link
Death Ray
Descend Into Madness
Brain chamber

P2 - Tentacles
Crusher Tentacles
Constrictor Tentacles
Corruptor Tentacles

P3
Lunatic Gaze
Shadow Beacon
Empowering shadows
Immortal Guardians
Deafening Roar

I wont count phase 1, it looks mostly helpful (with negative effects, so i dont know - never done it, cant judge)

Thats 16 skills. 15 without deafening roar (only with 0-3 keepers up, so normal mode wont have it)

Thats 15 skills. Well over this "3" you proclaim most bosses to have now.



Your guild losing motivation to do something harder I addressed in another thread - however I'll reiterate it shortly. THEM not wanting to do it is their own fault, NOT Blizzards. If you cannot do the hard mode, do what you did on Kalecgos, turn the fuck around and leave. Because you can't do it yet. Come back tomorrow/the next day/next week and try again till you get it. THATS WHAT YOU WANT? Dont take the pansy way out.

Blizzard is (i hope) fixing that problem with having norm/heroics be serpeate instances. But, I know it wont stop some. They'll do the easy one then bitch that they dont want to do the heroic.

Why is the magic of a boss (Algalon) ruined by the 10 man version? I don't understand this. Because you can see him on a 10 man it lessens your 25 man experience? If thats the case stop going to 10 mans. Its like, blizzard gave all these awesome options.

[veemon_ro]

[quote=Firegod1385 ]
I dont know what bosses you are talking about with 10+ abilities, thats just a lie.

The renowned C'Thun, master of all bosses apparently, had:

C'thun was tuned for 40 people and because of it he had fewer abilities to allow more room for errors then what a 25 man boss would have.


Compare to.. KT (Everyone hates Naxx so I ahve to compare to naxx)

Opening add phase

Frostbolt

does very little damage, RARELY kills some one

Aoe Frostbolt

can be ignored and not interupted, won't make healers go oom

Shadow fissure

they're up for 5 seconds and quite big, while you can die from them, even if youd loose 3+ members in the entire fight to the fissures you can still kill them.

Detonate Mana

I remember purposely going next to a mage who was a friend of mine to detonate it so ill be above him on dps. It was as a joke. Point is, you can stack up and you still wont go oom

Frost blast

only ability that can kill the raid imo if people stack

Chains of Kel'Thuzad (heroic only)

He does it once or twice the entire fight and indeed it can kill the raid ONLY if he cc's something dangerous like a rogue or mele dps.

His adds

The off tank died in so many pugs i've been and they allways got picked up, in fact a nax 25 man geared tank can tank the boss AND the adds

So thats 2 abilities that can whipe the raid.

He has SEVEN skills. (I count his adds as 1 skill - i counted all 4 different adds of C'thun as a different skill)

Why don't you compare it with a tbc boss like ilidan or kaelthas? Again i'm not counting the abilities that he has. I'm looking for abilities that can 1 shot people if they faill and there is no way around it once failing.
What I mean is if at ilidan one tank goes into the eye beam raid over, nothing you can do to compensate.
If at kelthuzad how ever some one doesn't interupt 5 aoe frost bolts in a row you still won't whipe.


P1

Sara's Fervor
Sara's Blessing
Sara's Anger
Guardians of Yogg-Saron

The only thing that can actually whipe you in p1 is steping in clouds.
The aoe from the adds isnt that important to interupt. In fact i bealive in our progress tries we didn't interupt a single one and no one died.
As for the saras curses they can all be outhealed.

P2
Sanity
Psychosis
Malady of the Mind
Brain Link
Death Ray
Descend Into Madness
Brain chamber

You can easily go away with failure to dispell 3-4 of these through out p2 without causing a whipe. How ever ill say that once you get mc youre screwed and it can whipe the raid if its a tank so lets say 2 abilities.

P2 - Tentacles
Crusher Tentacles
Constrictor Tentacles
Corruptor Tentacles

3 abilities that can whipe the raid (too many tenticles up you cant counter against it)

P3
Lunatic Gaze
Shadow Beacon
Empowering shadows
Immortal Guardians
Deafening Roar

You can get away with 4-5 lunatic gazes so you wont whipe the raid.
You can also get away with 2 imortal guardians that dont get dpsed if the tank is geared good.

Thats 16 skills. 15 without deafening roar (only with 0-3 keepers up, so normal mode wont have it)

Thats 15 skills. Well over this "3" you proclaim most bosses to have now.

I never said that a boss needs to have 200 skills to be hard. I'm saying that he needs to have alot of skills that can whipe the raid if you fail at them, AND there is no way to work around them. Lets compare to ilidan shall we?

Sheer-> 1 shots tank=raid whipe no matter what
Parasites-> if its linked youre screwed most of the time ->raid whipe
Flames of azinoth enrage -> raid whipe
1 tank dying from eye beam -> raid whipe
Shadow demons reaching the lock tank or the mt -> raid whipe
Bad positioning in p2 and geting fireballs spalshed between raid members causing more then 3 people to die in p2 -> raid whipe
Geting agro from the lock tank or the mt during the switching phase between demon form and normal form geting the lock or mt killed -> raid whipe

so 7 abilities that if you fail you pretty much get a whipe and there is no way around them. Now compare them again to the wotlk bosses.

Your guild losing motivation to do something harder I addressed in another thread - however I'll reiterate it shortly. THEM not wanting to do it is their own fault, NOT Blizzards. If you cannot do the hard mode, do what you did on Kalecgos, turn the fuck around and leave. Because you can't do it yet. Come back tomorrow/the next day/next week and try again till you get it. THATS WHAT YOU WANT? Dont take the pansy way out.

Well its kinda hard to do hard modes when people cancel their sub till ice crown. And as i said in the last thread, i would love to hear a story of some one who made a guild in wotlk and kill algalon.
Most guilds that i am aware of that have done it are already renowned guilds from tbc or strong guilds from tbc that disbanded and made a new guild in wotlk.

But then again its not JUST my guild. If that was the case there wouldnt be so many threads about it on the forums.
Right now the only guilds that can raid succesfully are either the really small ones who just do 10 mans and are happy with that.
The bad ones who still cant clear nax.
And the really good ones that strive for server first and have been on the server since before wotlk

Blizzard is (i hope) fixing that problem with having norm/heroics be serpeate instances. But, I know
it wont stop some. They'll do the easy one then bitch that they dont want to do the heroic.
Why is the magic of a boss (Algalon) ruined by the 10 man version? I don't understand this. Because you can see him on a 10 man it lessens your 25 man experience? If thats the case stop going to 10 mans. Its like, blizzard gave all these awesome options.

Its blizzards fault for not giving a better reward for doing hardmodes. In wotlk i could whipe all day on a sunwell boss since people wanted to see killjaden. You couldnt see him in a 10 man, you couldnt reach him any otherway besides siting there and whiping your ass off till you learn to play better and eventually reach him.

But now you dont have to whipe your ass off to see a boss, you go do a 10 man and there you go curiosity satisfied, now wait till next patch.

Again i don't think like that and while i can stop doing 10 man instances i cant convince so many other people to do the same.
And P.S im still waiting for a story of a guild who does hard modes and started off in wotlk without members from a previous top guild that disbanded

[ZackRaynor]

Everyone seems to be avoiding his question and getting sidetracked, and even though it has already been answered, it seemed to be ignored so I will repost the answer (and hopefully end this thread -_-!)

ToC is filler like Zul'Aman was between Black Temple and Sunwell.

That's like people playing TBC and wondering why Black Temple was harder than Zul'Aman when it was released after it.

The purpose of ToC is to give people gear so that they stand a chance in Icecrown when it comes out. I understand it is easy so far, but it's not suppose to be as indepth as a *actual* next tier of raiding. It's a stop-gap so people wouldn't be mind-numbingly bored waiting for ICC to come out like people were when Naxx was done, and we were waiting for Ulduar.

[Palamedic]

We have to wait for another challenge because they believed people would go through the easy mode and then hard mode.

I believe this is where the QQ is really coming from. It's not like it sucks. It's more or less like a junkie needing more of the same fix in order to get the same results. Some of us did the hard-modes in the last raid and now we are having withdrawels from the lack of a challenge.

Blizz even admitted that this wouldn't be challenging if we had done Uld10/25 hard.

Why not just make it so that we can get locked out from the other difficulty when we kill the boss? If we killed the first boss in Heroic, we're locked out from the normal difficulty and if we weren't as good as we think we are, we'll suffer for it until next week. It would make better sense to do it this way than to make us wait until we're geared up to do the hard-mode and make it easier than intended.

[Aniria22]

Patch 3.2 is a free epic patch. The raid instance of the Argent Coliseum has EASIER bosses but drops BETTER loot. Even pugs with 25 man naxxramas gear are easily pugging it. I go ther with my main and alt for easy epics and emblems. We one or two shotted first three raid bosses on 25 man mode with people barely knowing what to do. I doubt the heroic dificulty will be much harder. The bosses will have more HP and hit harder, but there are no other elements that make the encounter harder. The boss does not gain any other abilities or anything.

3.2 CALL OF THE CASUALS

or 3.2:CALL OF THE BADS

your call(oh the irony)

[Teneal]

3.2 is basically Zul'Aman. Zul'Aman came out after BT and had T5+ quality pieces that guilds that could only clear KZ were farming. Dunno why everyone is all upset about this considering that it happened in BC with no hostile response... Must be because it is "Tier"

[Tarantism]

Bosses in ZA weren't 1-2 shottable by bad guilds.

[ZackRaynor]

Bosses in ZA weren't 1-2 shottable by bad guilds.

The point is - It's easier than BT

[Lord_Richi]

The point is - It's easier than BT

Maybe because it didn't have the next Tier of gear? and not another 25man raid?

[veemon_ro]

If this is another filler raid then what, wotlk has just 2 raids and a bunch of crappy mini-raids with 1 boss?

So far we've had ulduar thats the only original instance in this expansion.
Now we have TOC wich aparantely is just a "filler raid"
And finally we get ice crown.

Thats 2 raids compared to over 5 raiding instances in TBC and over 5 in vanilla.

But I don't think this is a filler raid. This raid was hyped up to the max with blizzard saying "3.2 is a secret raid that every one was waiting for"

"The expansion will have 3 major patches, with ulduar in 3.1 a secret epic raid in 3.2 and icc in 3.3".
.


Zull aman was actually chalanging and some bosses like hex lord were harder then black temple. It was also not a tier instance and it droped ssc/tk quality loot, wich had bosses on equal dificulty as za.

So again if this is a filler raid i would want my 3.2 promised raid before ice crown. Gief ajzol nerub or troll instance.

[Schussel]

you do understand that ToC is the secret raid ...


DOOOH

[veemon_ro]

so its painfully obvious its not a filler raid then but a new tier of content

[Melonberry]

I think ToC is harder than normal modes in Ulduar.

Hell, everyone was saying Ulduar was too easy before they tried hardmodes...then it was constant cries for nerfs because the encounters were "impossible"

[Mord]

Its been stated that TOC is a gear reset for peeps that catch up for when Icecrown comes out they will not be behind if they just started raiding, that why they dont have to do Naxx->ulduar->toc->Icecrown.

Besides the Heroic version is suppose to be a lot harder and the bosses do have new stuff they can do.

[veemon_ro]

awh those poor poor people who have just started raiding .
Who cba to do some voa and pug some nax.

They might get their items, but what they won't get is experience and coordonation on how to do a new boss.

If icc will be a bit harder then ulduar normal mode, then raiding guilds will see tones of people that fit the gear requirment, but will also be really bad when it comes to listening on vent, knowing how to play their class , what spells to use in a hard encounter etc.

[Achilles]

Heroic difficulty hasen't even been released for ToC, wait until that and see how well you do.