DW Frost build

[Chrolde]

what I found in my own play

I think this is an important phrase for this discussion. I've honestly found that, given my playstyle, the GoDisease was better DPS for me, after trying a Sub build with GoIT. However, this probably is a case of 'your results may vary' and people will just have to try both in order to determine what works best for them.

I recently dropped BCB all together in favor of 2/2 NotD (I was running 3/51/17 so didn't have BCB maxed anyway). I even went as far as to use GotGhoul instead of GoIT/GoDisease. Oddly enough it came out about even. I would usually use my first rotation dump time to summon a ghoul (so he's out in the first few seconds of the fight). With 1 min duration and 1.5min CD I was usually able to get another ghoul out during the last 20% or so...I would end up having 15-20 seconds left on the ghoul in some cases however.

Maybe in Icecrown the ghoul will be better off if we get a stand up 7+ min fight again...but most fights now either do not last that long...or there is a ton of movement involved.

So I dropped the ghoul glyph and will respec soon for 2/3 BCB again.

Interesting that, even with movement, the two talents produced similar results. Having to use the Glyph of the Ghoul over the other two options does unfortunately make it undesirable at the time, which is disappointing, and I doubt we will be seeing a 'Hey, stand here and beat on me for a very long time!' fight in Icecrown...but you never know.

[imgladidonthavedowns]

the way you feel about a spec does not change math

[Nillo]

Not really...I'm saying take IT Glyph because it is functionally better in 90% of the game than GoDisease is...example: Kologarn=GoDisease...Rest of Ulduar=GoIT.

GoIT gives an amazing 10 RP per rotation (it did give like 40 RP before 3.1)
XT Hard: You'll go for 130 RP before attacking the heart so GoIT is useless here and GoD just provides a powered up diseases for an extremely long fight.
Kologarn: you don't really need GoDisease here.
Hodir: Spreads Diseases to frost tombs for free, because it's in your rotation.


Well w/e your I think opinion is completely screwed up.
And to say it again if you use GoDisease you'll gain 1 OB (=moar rime procs) + 1 GCD (used for another FS, because we have the RP) at the cost of some IT + PS + BS, which is always better than a crappy 10 RP from IT (that you can't even use because you're missing the GCD for it)

[Sindrop]

Why discount Heart Strike when looking at dps? I'd rather top a damage meter then a dps meter any day.

[Daehauq]

Like you said...13 GCD's with 1 to spare for KMRime...13*1.5= 19.5 secs...oddly enough diseases last 21 seconds...actually leaving 2 GCD's before FF "needs" to be re-applied.

Admitted, I forgot to mention something. Ability(rune CDs when ability used, time used due to GCD), this might get complicated so bare with me:
IT(Frost1 10s, 1.5)
PS(Frost1 8.5s, Unholy1 10sec, 3.0)
OB(Frost1 7.0s, Unholy1 8.5s, Frost2 10s, Unholy2 10s, 4.5)
BS(Frost1 5.5s, Unholy1 7.0s, Frost2 8.5s, Unholy2 8.5s, Blood1 10s, 6.0) (Blood rune will be Death)
BS(Frost1 4.0s, Unholy1 5.5s, Frost2 7.0s, Unholy2 7.0s, Blood1 8.5s, Blood2 10s, 7.5) (Blood rune will be Death)
FS(Frost1 2.5s, Unholy1 4.0s, Frost2 5.5s, Unholy2 5.5s, Blood1 7.0s, Blood2 8.5s, 9.0)
FS(Frost1 1.0s, Unholy1 2.5s, Frost2 4.0s, Unholy2 4.0s, Blood1 5.5s, Blood2 7.0s, 10.5) (see that Frost1 will be available while you're in GCD and Unholy1 will have 1.0sec CD left afterwards)

So you lose 1sec in your rotation no matter what (you're unable to use Oblit and you have no RP left to dump), thus 20sec = 13 GCDs, and leaving 0.5sec to spare in the end (if GoDisease spec'd, this 0.5sec matters)

BS doesn't get priority...nor does OB...its all based on runes available.

Which one deals more dmg/Rune, BS or OB?
If you have 2*Blood Runes and Frost+Unholy Runes availabe, which one would you choose?
If you have 2*Death Runes available, would you use them on BS or OB?
So yes, it's all based on Runes available, but you prioritize the use of them based on priority of your abilities.

IT^1.5^PS^1.5^OB^1.5^BS^1.5^BS^Dump your last BS happens at 6 seconds into the fight

Now starting at 11.5 seconds (when F/U from IT/PS is off CD)

OB^1.5^OB^1.5^ (uh oh what happens here? you're now at 14.5 seconds...1.5seconds from last DR coming off CD???)

This is true, you'll have a GCD to use here for KMRime/FS/Rime so I'll admit my mistake (couldn't prove otherwise) but this is true only when you don't get a KMRime during the time I detailed above.

Now if Rime does proc then just throw a HB out...don't wait on KM to proc if its not up...because you are wasting GCD's and losing time on your diseases.

But what if Rime does not proc? (which is more often the case) Then you throw a FS and move on to your next OB to finish your runes.

Read above "true only when you don't get a KMRime during the time I detailed above"

The main thing I'd like you to understand Daehauq is this:

I never said to ignore KMRime...I never said anything about priority before this post...FS in the middle of a rotation can be read as "FS/KMRime/Rime" if it makes you feel better...hell let me "prioritize" it for you:

IT>PS>OB>BS>BS>Dump
OB>OB>(KMRime/Rime/FS)>OB>Dump

Does that make it look better? Does it make it seem like I have now prioritized KMRime above everything else? Does it still make it look like I am giving FS more priority than Ob? Because if it does then I guess I just need to waste that GCD in the middle to keep from giving priority to something that shouldn't be important.

It's a big different saying "OB-OB-dump-OB" and "OB-OB-(dump)-OB". The first one inclines (is this a word?) that you would ALWAYS use a dump after the 2 OBs, while the second ones uses a dump in between based on conditions. And once again priority comes into play: you have a spare GCD between Rune CDs (so OB isn't available). Which one will you use to fill: KMRime, FS or Rime. Answer: highest dmg dealing ability that is available.

We're pretty close to arguing the same point...I just want you to know that rotation is not priority...and without a rotation priority cannot exist.

And I'm gonna keep argumenting until we're on the same page And I've never said that rotation equals priority or that w/o a rotation priority doesn't exists. What I am saying is that if you don't prioritize your abilities accordingly, you will NEVER maximise your DPS