Shamans get core abilities from talents

[Grimwolf]

Lately I've been noticing some pattern in shamans' talents - we lack core abilities that other classes get from trainers and we compensate that by putting points in different talent trees. A few examples:

We don't have parry by default - put a point in Spirit Weapons

We don't have dual wield by default - put a point in Dual Wield (duh)

Our ghost wolf is 2 sec cast - put 2 points in Improved Ghost Wolf and we get ALMOST like druid's travelform

We don't have decurse by default - put a point in Cleanse Spirit and we get it

Long ago we couldn't use 2H axes and maces, but guess what - put a point in 2H Axes and Maces and you get them. Also for quite a lot time there was a bug that caused you to lose your skill points in 2H axes and/or maces upon respec.

The only good bonus we get is the clearcasting in the elemental tree, that is only 1 point, compared to the mages' 5 points to get the same 10% effect.

Is it me or shaman's talents are very boring and instead of having cool stuff we just put points to get on par with the abilities of other classes?

/discuss

[Vashta]

:

[k-shaman]

I've always thought Riptide was a watered-down (lololol) form of Nourish.

[norazz]

yea!

They ran out of ideas for talents so they gave easily trained abilities as talents seems like

[General Vezax]

Its becuase shaman are the only class that can do ranged dps, melee dps, and healing in the same form. Pallies are this way too, somewhat (ret). You would end up with useless baseline abilities.

[Alltat]

Look at the bright side instead - there are plenty of classes that don't have the option to spec into all these abilities. Just because someone else gets something as a core ability doesn't mean every other class deserves it too, or do you think every class should get Grounding Totem and Frost Shock just to make things fair? Give all healers a talent to get Chain Heal; why should we be the only ones to have it? Ghost Wolf for paladins! Chain Lightning for rogues! Let mages use mail and shields! Earthbind Totems for everyone!

I've always thought Riptide was a watered-down (lololol) form of Nourish.

How? They have absolutely nothing in common. You could argue that it's a "watered-down" form of Regrowth, but considering that Riptide is instant and Regrowth has a casting time, that's like arguing that Nature's Swiftness is useless because it's just the same thing but instant... I mean, who would want that?

[brokenmirror]

Its becuase shaman are the only class that can do ranged dps, melee dps, and healing in the same form. Pallies are this way too, somewhat (ret). You would end up with useless baseline abilities.

Druids are like that too, but you've never seen them having to put the majority of their points into their tree(s). Feral/resto pvp spec for example.

Shamans have always been the class you can't have a multi spec with, since our spells that make us even comparable to other classes is at the very bottom tier.

[General Vezax]

Eh, i didnt say druids since they have to be in a certain form to use certain abilites, and bear/cat form would be pointless to even have w/o the abilities.

[cubby]

Imo there isn't much to discuss because this point has been hammered over again and again. However, even if the horse is dead, it's worth discussing because, well, it's fun to chat about stuff.

So here goes:

Lately I've been noticing some pattern in shamans' talents - we lack core abilities that other classes get from trainers and we compensate that by putting points in different talent trees. A few examples:

We don't have parry by default - put a point in Spirit Weapons

Good point - we don't get parry without points - and I'm not sure why we'd ever want parry. If SW didn't give us the base for DW then I wouldn't take it. The reduced threat and the lead in to DW is why anyone spends time there.

We don't have dual wield by default - put a point in Dual Wield (duh)

But we can get it and that's the point - we are a hybrid class and "choose" where we go with out abilities by picking talents - to heal, to range dps or to melee dps. If we were just given all those abilities at the beginning, we would be very much op'd.

Our ghost wolf is 2 sec cast - put 2 points in Improved Ghost Wolf and we get ALMOST like druid's travelform

We don't have decurse by default - put a point in Cleanse Spirit and we get it

Be happy we get insta-cast GW at all - it's fantastic ability for pvp (not that I pvp, but still) and for those leveling. Same with decurse - at least we can spec into it and increase our raid debuff'ing ability by 50%.


What you have to realize is that we are a hybrid class. We don't really get a lot of abilities without spec'ing into a specific tree - but, after we choose a tree, we can heal, range or melee dps - and many other classes do not have that option.

So yes, it is a hassle not to have any core abilities, but it's fantastic that we can choose to do so much with one toon.

[Alltat]

Druids are like that too, but you've never seen them having to put the majority of their points into their tree(s). Feral/resto pvp spec for example.

Not really sure what druid class you're playing, but you do realize that feral druids don't even have enough points to get both cat and bear talents in their own tree? And that a resto druid that even considers going into feral for PvP is giving up a huge chunk of PvE efficiency? Druids happen to have low-tier talents 'leaked' into other trees, but those tend to be mandatory (14 points resto for balance and feral, 11 points balance for PvE resto) and them being in other trees does more to limit your choices than to expand them.

[Kalioshas]

Is it me

yes

[Tigercat]

I'd like to point out that the OP seems to think that Elemental Shaman and Mage clearcasting function exactly the same, and as such this thread is either a troll or horribly misinformed. Proceed with caution.

[TerryBogard]

We don't have dual wield by default - put a point in Dual Wield (duh)

But we can get it and that's the point - we are a hybrid class and "choose" where we go with out abilities by picking talents - to heal, to range dps or to melee dps. If we were just given all those abilities at the beginning, we would be very much op'd.

Actually there isnt a real choice since 2H weapon damage is fail for shaman and Blizzard doesnt want 2H weapons to be viable for the class. Therefore forcing the class to have to spend a talent point in order for the entire tree to be viable oozes irony. You can spend all 71 points in enhancement, never take dual wield, and do miserable DPS. Something isnt right with that.

[Gestopft]

Lately I've been noticing some pattern in shamans' talents - we lack core abilities that other classes get from trainers and we compensate that by putting points in different talent trees. A few examples:

We don't have parry by default - put a point in Spirit Weapons

We don't have dual wield by default - put a point in Dual Wield (duh)

We don't have decurse by default - put a point in Cleanse Spirit and we get it

The only good bonus we get is the clearcasting in the elemental tree, that is only 1 point, compared to the mages' 5 points to get the same 10% effect.

Is it me or shaman's talents are very boring and instead of having cool stuff we just put points to get on par with the abilities of other classes?

/discuss

1. Enhancement was originally designed as a buff class/offtank for the Horde. Shaman had toughness, shield specialization, and parry to assist with offtanking. It may seem outdated now, that's just the sort of history of it

2. You couldn't make dual-wield baseline...that would allow Ele and Resto to dual wield caster maces/daggers...sounds fun, but not Blizzard's intention.

3. We do however, have cleansing totem, which is the best cleansing spell in the game. Ele and enhance can already passively cleanse disease and poison.

4. Mage Clearcasting is WAY different from Ele clearcasting, but I agree: it is a good buff

[Elementium]

There are a few things I wish were baseline.

Stormstrike for example (unless it would actually benefit an elemental shaman to use stormstrike?)
Lavalash is another good one.

Of course I don't want them going around screwing with Enhance because i'm happy with where we are right now and knowing blizzard and the history of shaman i'd be very nervous.

[cubby]

Actually there isnt a real choice since 2H weapon damage is fail for shaman and Blizzard doesnt want 2H weapons to be viable for the class. Therefore forcing the class to have to spend a talent point in order for the entire tree to be viable oozes irony. You can spend all 71 points in enhancement, never take dual wield, and do miserable DPS. Something isnt right with that.

Actually, putting a DW specialization high up in the tree is exactly the point. They want hybrids to do good dps, but to get there you have got to want it, and actively take it. If it were any lower in the tree, you could go DW in Enh and still get very high up in another tree.

And there is nothing wrong with eliminating our functionality with using 2h - the shaman class always looked a little silly using 2h'ers imo. Although, that is just my subjective opinion - perhaps they could put in an either/or trigger in the Enh tree to have us be able to choose DW or 2h.

All of this as well as what Ele said:

Of course I don't want them going around screwing with Enhance because i'm happy with where we are right now and knowing blizzard and the history of shaman i'd be very nervous.

[k-shaman]

2. You couldn't make dual-wield baseline...that would allow Ele and Resto to dual wield caster maces/daggers...sounds fun, but not Blizzard's intention.

All caster weapons are mainhand only.

[Jiai]

Actually there isnt a real choice since 2H weapon damage is fail for shaman and Blizzard doesnt want 2H weapons to be viable for the class. Therefore forcing the class to have to spend a talent point in order for the entire tree to be viable oozes irony. You can spend all 71 points in enhancement, never take dual wield, and do miserable DPS. Something isnt right with that.

You mean like... Titan grip, Explosive shot, Felguard, ToThassarian (as DW Frost DK), Mangle, the 2 Retribution strikes and so on ?

[Daimkryss]

Eh, i didnt say druids since they have to be in a certain form to use certain abilites, and bear/cat form would be pointless to even have w/o the abilities.

pop cat form for stealth and bear form for stun is pointless you say?

[Deleted]

And there is nothing wrong with eliminating our functionality with using 2h - the shaman class always looked a little silly using 2h'ers imo. Although, that is just my subjective opinion - perhaps they could put in an either/or trigger in the Enh tree to have us be able to choose DW or 2h.

....I, amongst a lot of other shamans back then, rolled our classes because they did exactly that, we HURT with a 2hander, an orc shammy with a 2h has always been the image of raw fucking power :> So yea, they even went as far as to change the stormstrike animation for 2h's, so it now looks like you're poking your target with your weapon... makes me sad.