poor shadow priest

[Aread]

even after the patch, the only fight i've come close to running oom on was yogg from dotting up all the adds all the time (i was using dp, and when i say close too oom, i ended the fight with probably around 25% mana left)

using dispersion at the right time, and using your fiend when it's off CD will keep you above 50% mana for a full fight.

if you're running oom, you're probably refreshing dots way before they're finished, and not using shadowfiend until you realize you're starting to get low on mana

No like any good Spriest i use shadowfiend when its off CD and do you realise that just because DP doesn't have a CD anymore it still only effects 1 target at a time. So if you cast it on one mob then the next the first mob loses DP.

[enotsdarb]

Plz explain wtf your on about with the bolded.

Currently im at about 400ish haste 23% crit unbuffed, about 700 spirit i think, only fight i have been close to oom is yogg25, apart from that never been oom.


this^^

Atm we currently have no utility in raids, and sub par dps, i consider myself a good spriest and can pull nice dps , but if your in a 25man raid and your pure class arnt ahead of u + dk +feral, which makes up nearly 50% of my raids, then they are slacking or just not that good.

I realy love my spriest and wish i had some constructive ideas about ways to help our dps and give us back some utility but unfortunetly i dont think it would make a difference, blizz knows excactly whats going on with us , the same as what hapened in tbh, we arnt a highly popular class so they dont give as much attention to us, i think the class disscusion showed that.

^ this

quoted for truth

[enotsdarb]

quote author=enotsdarb link=topic=102907.msg1409419#msg1409419 date=1251853160]
even after the patch, the only fight i've come close to running oom on was yogg from dotting up all the adds all the time (i was using dp, and when i say close too oom, i ended the fight with probably around 25% mana left)

using dispersion at the right time, and using your fiend when it's off CD will keep you above 50% mana for a full fight.

if you're running oom, you're probably refreshing dots way before they're finished, and not using shadowfiend until you realize you're starting to get low on mana


No like any good Spriest i use shadowfiend when its off CD and do you realise that just because DP doesn't have a CD anymore it still only effects 1 target at a time. So if you cast it on one mob then the next the first mob loses DP.

yes, i know dp only effects one target. but when that target dies, i recast it on the next target immediately.

[Aread]

Plz explain wtf your on about with the bolded.

Currently im at about 400ish haste 23% crit unbuffed, about 700 spirit i think, only fight i have been close to oom is yogg25, apart from that never been oom.

I am in Full T8.5 ... well except i have t9 shoulders and i know i go oom on some fights and i have dot timers so i dont refresh my dots when they dont need it. Also Prior to the patch i never EVER even got close to oom.

Also i am generally in the top 10 of raid dps so im doing something right (in 25mans that is)

[enotsdarb]

I am in Full T8.5 ... well except i have t9 shoulders and i know i go oom on some fights and i have dot timers so i dont refresh my dots when they dont need it. Also Prior to the patch i never EVER even got close to oom.

Also i am generally in the top 10 of raid dps so im doing something right (in 25mans that is)

top 10...

grats. you sir, are pro.

/end sarcasm

[dreavgona]

join a better guild and play with better players.

i don't know wtf you're talking about with the innervate. shadowpriests shouldn't ever have any mana issues.....EVER.

you're insane if you think our buffs are at par with everyone elses. sure replenishment is nice, but can be brought by multiple other classes.

and i'll repeat about VE, if it is making a difference in your guild being able to down a boss. gtfo and join a better guild.

Kinda hard to join a better guild as I am in best guild on my server... As for running out of mana, not using dispersion increases your dps, does it not? Dotting up adds increases your dps, no? You CAN use more mana if you really push your class, unlike every other class that cant use more mana then their rotation uses.

VE, even if it only does 100k of healing in a fight, or even 10k of actual healing, thats 1 less wild growth that needs to be tossed on your group. Sure, its nothing amazing, but its better then a big 0 healing, wich is what most dps classes bring. Even if it just does 1 tick on the entire fight on 1 player, that 1 tick can save a player from dying. Granted odds are ridiculously low, but still.

As for innervate... It regens mana based on your max mana, not based on sprit or mp5... Its a free extra 30% mana to play with. Even if all it does is save you from using dispersion, thats an extra 6 secs of dps as far as I know. And yes, Yogg is a great example of a place where spriests get to shine and burn through more mana then they have.

[Clarkis2001]

join a better guild and play with better players.

i don't know wtf you're talking about with the innervate. shadowpriests shouldn't ever have any mana issues.....EVER.

you're insane if you think our buffs are at par with everyone elses. sure replenishment is nice, but can be brought by multiple other classes.

and i'll repeat about VE, if it is making a difference in your guild being able to down a boss. gtfo and join a better guild.

QQFTL. Re-roll if you don't like your class. I love my Warlock but am not always top dps. You should enjoy playing your character IMO. It's nice to top meters and whatnot but at the end of the day if you don't enjoy your Shadow Priest as a whole (playstyle and the like) then it's time to level an alt IMO.

[Uliaoth]

shadow priests have the raw end of the deal.

we don't bring the best dps. there may be a couple fights where do better, like yogg and kol, but the majority of the time, we aren't topping the meters, or even in the top 5 for that matter.

the problem is, other classes that are usually around the same level of dps as us bring valuable buffs to the raid. The only buff a shadow priest is 3%hit with spells. something that a boomkin can bring instead, and something that no one really honestly counts on anyway. most people are hit-capped, so so our buff is useless. other classes that don't do a lot of dps bring things like bloodlust, 5%crit, etc.

even the pures, who are supposed to do 5% more damage than the hybrids are bringing better buffs for the raid than a shadow priest.

can we please have something this would make a raid leader want to bring a shadow priest, besides just being a good player? i want to give something to the raid that will help us in raiding.

Very few dpsers are hit capped (446 rating or 17%) in my guild as we always count shadow priests and moonkins - your +3% hit is something that counts plus that it lets us care more to increase other stats than hit as we know that the RL will always bring a sp(everyone should have around 365-370 hit rat).Therefore that means more dps = more dmg = easy progression = GG.Your Raid leader must be pathetic if he wants more reasons to bring a shadow priest in the raid

[autopsy]

Just give more fights that need MC then you'll see everyone beg you to join their raid :P

[Neichus]

I know people don't like to hear this, but S.priests are difficult to balance. I don't think Blizzard is somehow neglecting them, although as they've also admitted in a push-comes-to-shove scenario Priests have two very strong trees (albeit healing).

DoT classes have a few distinct advantages, namely being able to DPS multiple targets and DPS while on the move. They can't do either of these things at max capacity, but it's a useful trick. They tend to pay for this a bit with a lack of burst DPS. S.priests also have killer AoE, which is looking better after the Unholy DK and (future) FoK nerfs.

The issue is that if a S.priest could match, say, a Fire Mage in single-target stationary DPS then there's no reason to bring a Mage because the Priest does equal damage and is more mobile while doing much of it. However there's a fine line where S.priest DPS is less on direct-target fights and where it is unacceptably low. I'm not going to propose to know whether S.priests are balanced, but I do think it's a difficult proposition.

[enotsdarb]

Kinda hard to join a better guild as I am in best guild on my server... As for running out of mana, not using dispersion increases your dps, does it not? Dotting up adds increases your dps, no? You CAN use more mana if you really push your class, unlike every other class that cant use more mana then their rotation uses.

VE, even if it only does 100k of healing in a fight, or even 10k of actual healing, thats 1 less wild growth that needs to be tossed on your group. Sure, its nothing amazing, but its better then a big 0 healing, wich is what most dps classes bring. Even if it just does 1 tick on the entire fight on 1 player, that 1 tick can save a player from dying. Granted odds are ridiculously low, but still.

As for innervate... It regens mana based on your max mana, not based on sprit or mp5... Its a free extra 30% mana to play with. Even if all it does is save you from using dispersion, thats an extra 6 secs of dps as far as I know. And yes, Yogg is a great example of a place where spriests get to shine and burn through more mana then they have.

that's why you disperse at times when you normally wouldn't be dpsing, like running into phase to in yogg, or while in the pot on ignis, etc.

and i keep dots rolling on everything all the time, and i still don't need inervate to let me do that. that's why i think you're doing something wrong

QQFTL. Re-roll if you don't like your class. I love my Warlock but am not always top dps. You should enjoy playing your character IMO. It's nice to top meters and whatnot but at the end of the day if you don't enjoy your Shadow Priest as a whole (playstyle and the like) then it's time to level an alt IMO.

thanks, but that's why i'm still playing my shadow priest. i love the class and how it works. but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement, and i'm allowed to point that out.

[syanid]

Out of curiosity, how many here are in a guild that is min-maxing to the point that they're deciding not to take a shadow priest to the raid because warlock / mage / whatever are better dps?

I'm in one of top alliance guilds on my server, we're taking 3 shadow priests per raid and while they do less damage than warlock, they never die to random things, they are played by reliable players and we don't really have damage issues that are preventing us from downing something.

Also, shadow priests = hymn of hope. And yes, we use it (believe it or not).

Before anyone starts to laugh or start mentioning hard modes, feel free to check me on armory (syanid, eu jaedenar).

Note: I play a shadow priest (offspec disc, sometimes holy) and I enjoy all 3 specs of the priest class, but I love shadow the most. I don't care if a lock does 2k dps more than me, I love my dwarf and the playstyle. There haven't been damage issues so far, we are not minmaxing to the point that we want pure dps classes over hybrids.

To others who feel the same way, good luck in your playing. To qqers.. well, I have nothing to say.

[Neo_mat]

lol... ulduar25 = 1st/2nd damage dealer in overall, and 2nd-4th dps/damage dealer at boss fights. Really i dont see any problem at all, except Mind Flay clipping and that we need too much effort to get same DPS as ppl clicking 3 buttons.

[syanid]

Neo_mat - in "better" guilds, let's call them like that, shadow priests aren't at the top, they are at the bottom. In theory (and practice), shadow priests are bad at single target damage, we cap around 6 - 6.2k or so, we are great at multidotting (yogg), at aoe encounters (kologarn, freya) and so on. But at single target fights - mages, locks, rogues, warriors, dks win.

But even with worse damage, there hasn't been an encounter where a guild had to cut at shadow priests to invite another mage, lock, rogue or whatever for higher damage. We have doomsayers here who swear to being replaced because their damage sucks, which isn't true.

[Kelesti]

But even with worse damage, there hasn't been an encounter where a guild had to cut at shadow priests to invite another mage, lock, rogue or whatever for higher damage. We have doomsayers here who swear to being replaced because their damage sucks, which isn't true.

Unless that person's name is Strykzor. But he's just terrible anyways.

[enotsdarb]

Neo_mat - in "better" guilds, let's call them like that, shadow priests aren't at the top, they are at the bottom. In theory (and practice), shadow priests are bad at single target damage, we cap around 6 - 6.2k or so, we are great at multidotting (yogg), at aoe encounters (kologarn, freya) and so on. But at single target fights - mages, locks, rogues, warriors, dks win.

But even with worse damage, there hasn't been an encounter where a guild had to cut at shadow priests to invite another mage, lock, rogue or whatever for higher damage. We have doomsayers here who swear to being replaced because their damage sucks, which isn't true.

the problem isn't that i'm getting cut from raids to bring a mage or lock. the problem is, we're the only class that brings bad dps, along with bad raid buffs.

[Mix]

I am a warlock. Please don't group us up in "bringing raid buffs" too much. Most of us are Dest for pve.

We have a gimic in soulstones - but some of the above would argue that if you need these then you need a better guild (since they argued that your periodic raid healing doesn't make or break a fight..) And hell druids brez are better since you hardly ever know WHO is going to die (IC hard mode is nice with soulstones though).

We have healthstones..they could argue the same as above. Shouldn't need if you are good.

Summoning - well there is a stone outside if you want

Imp health buff is overwritten by warrior's.

We can get replenishment but don't always (and so many people can have it in a 25man...)

13% spell dmg at a loss of personal dps (but overwritten often by boomkins and less often by unholy dk's - we don't have any running unholy atm).

So..possibly locks bring some unique buffs. NONE of them fit outside an argument above that VE healing helping with raid heals and boss kills means you need a better raid. Any of the lock ones aren't "required" to win any fight either. It's about helping your attempts along. With healthstones a raid can use a dps pot instead (or mana pot).

I do this sp's need a tad more burst dmg (ive been thinking about making one..only caster class i don;t currently have an alt of). I see the playstyle much more akin to affliction. If the fight is short or you have to swap too much to an add that dies swiftly you lose dps cause dots don;t get time to tick.

This being said, our sp's are NOT bad. They rank high on many fights (remembering that fight style does usually depend on who is on top..don't try to beat an afflock on Yogg since we can dps with our backs turned more than anyone in p3)

Honestly I have only been in one guild that ran no sp (or boomkin) at all. It was the most caster unfriendly group ever! And I was only there a month (guild disbanded - was a hop between my home of 2 years and my current home).

The only time I would be willing to sit a sp would be if they were underperforming for their gear level or being numbnuts and standing in shit. The difference in the caster dps doesn't make up for a smart raider

Hope you guys get a little more burst/dps buffage, but wouldn't hold your breath on raid buffs that make you THE class to bring I think the only two classes holding that distinction are shammies - Hero/bloodlust and a pally for Kings. Even then I've run without those before on nights where RL collided with the raid...

[enotsdarb]

I am a warlock. Please don't group us up in "bringing raid buffs" too much. Most of us are Dest for pve.

We have a gimic in soulstones - but some of the above would argue that if you need these then you need a better guild (since they argued that your periodic raid healing doesn't make or break a fight..) And hell druids brez are better since you hardly ever know WHO is going to die (IC hard mode is nice with soulstones though).

We have healthstones..they could argue the same as above. Shouldn't need if you are good.

Summoning - well there is a stone outside if you want

Imp health buff is overwritten by warrior's.

We can get replenishment but don't always (and so many people can have it in a 25man...)

13% spell dmg at a loss of personal dps (but overwritten often by boomkins and less often by unholy dk's - we don't have any running unholy atm).

So..possibly locks bring some unique buffs. NONE of them fit outside an argument above that VE healing helping with raid heals and boss kills means you need a better raid. Any of the lock ones aren't "required" to win any fight either. It's about helping your attempts along. With healthstones a raid can use a dps pot instead (or mana pot).

I do this sp's need a tad more burst dmg (ive been thinking about making one..only caster class i don;t currently have an alt of). I see the playstyle much more akin to affliction. If the fight is short or you have to swap too much to an add that dies swiftly you lose dps cause dots don;t get time to tick.

This being said, our sp's are NOT bad. They rank high on many fights (remembering that fight style does usually depend on who is on top..don't try to beat an afflock on Yogg since we can dps with our backs turned more than anyone in p3)

Honestly I have only been in one guild that ran no sp (or boomkin) at all. It was the most caster unfriendly group ever! And I was only there a month (guild disbanded - was a hop between my home of 2 years and my current home).

The only time I would be willing to sit a sp would be if they were underperforming for their gear level or being numbnuts and standing in shit. The difference in the caster dps doesn't make up for a smart raider

Hope you guys get a little more burst/dps buffage, but wouldn't hold your breath on raid buffs that make you THE class to bring I think the only two classes holding that distinction are shammies - Hero/bloodlust and a pally for Kings. Even then I've run without those before on nights where RL collided with the raid...

the difference between healthstones and VE is that healthstones can provide a fairly large heal, at a time when it's needed. VE provides a steady very small heal, which is never going to save someones life, but healthstones can very well be the difference in you dying or not.

and everyone keeps arguing the same thing. Everyone argues that their class doesn't have amazing buffs either. The difference is, in your case as a lock, you bring dps. Something shadow priests don't bring, save a few fights out of all the bosses.

what i'm saying is that all classes, except the shadow priest, bring either valuable buffs, or very exeptional dps. and in some cases, both.

[Qualia]

Can we, for once, copy an idea from sp.com and make a "Bitch, moan, complain about shadow priest dps" topic please? It's kinda annoying to see one pop up every few days/weeks (and it's hard to reply each without copy & paste also).

Back on topic, just a question, what are "a few fights out of all bosses"? Because from what I experienced (which is, everything include Yogg 0, except ToC hardmode thanks to server's stability), at the moment, the only fight that matters and our dps fall behind is Algalon - in which our survivability & dispersion kinda make up for it. It's true that I'm also at lower end (~#10-14 out of 17 dpser) of damage (dps) meter in simple, single-target fights such as Ignis, XT hard, IC or few ToC bosses; But are they so important? Not really.

Just from my experience, ~1+ month ago when my guild was still attempting Algalon, we actually had to sub out a mage. His dps is very good, his situation awareness is okay, however, he keeps dying randomly here and there once every few tries (random damage from star explode + barrages) *could be our healers' fault of course, doesn't change the fact that he died*. I was nearly 2k dps lower than that mage, but I and the other SP was also the last ones healers had to worry about there & our dispersions let our tanks use their cds while tanking - make it less stressful for healing. So even in Algalon race, dps isn't the only thing that matter.
Now to the fights that we are doing fine in damage(and actually matter) - Freya hard , Mimiron hard, Thorim hard (well, for MC, but that MC also translated into damage), Hodir hard, Vezax hard, Yogg 0. You could argue these are "gimmicks" fights that we have special buffs, or allow us to multi doting and aoe-ing (of course, different guilds can use different strats - such as not allowing SP to multi-doting, but in that case, the problem lies in the strategy, not the priest). It's true, but it doesn't change the fact that there are more fights (that people may care about) in which we are doing fine than ones we are falling behind.

Of course, I would be glad to get a buff, but even w/o it, we are doing fine so far. It's not that bad, people just need to get out of their "Single-target-brain-dead-patchwerk-like encounters' dps = everything so we suck, poor us" mindset. We have good aoe / multi-target damage, we have good survivability (shadowform & VE), we bring few buffs (of course, not really unique except Misery if you ask me), give us mages-like's single target dps then every raids will be filled with shadow priests + 1 each other dps caster class.

[syanid]

I couldn't agree more with Qualia. And also, at that fabled Algalon encounter - it's doable with 3 shadow priests in the raid. It's not like this is Sunwell era where you had to stack certain classes for Brutallus / M'uru and such encounters.
We don't bring any special buffs, but in my guild the last people to die are shadow priests in every encounter and they have constant damage.