PvE Concerns (from Bluetracker)

[Kirkis]

Normal modes..... could be done with 20 shadow priests.
Hard modes, which is what we are talking about where every last bit of dps is wanted Spriests have no purpose.

If i was raid leading and i had a choice to bring in a Shadowpriest or a Warlock, there isn't 2 ways about it, I would bring a Warlock, they are 1-2k dps ahead, bring a Soulstone and Healthstones, Curses and Fear (Valuable for Faction Champs)

Hybrids are getting phased out, Pures are getting more and more utility.

I am talking about hardmodes here aswell. What I'm going at here, is that so far, the hardmodes aren't so hard, that the raid would benefit sooo much more from another class. It's not like you're going to wipe there with 3 sp's. The hardmodes simply aren't hard enough for that.

[Nezoia]

Weena: We're discussing our problems with damage in relation to ToC, Ulduar Hardmodes is outdated, and isn't relevant to the discussion anymore.

Nobody cares how much damage you could do in Naxx/Ulduar, when ToC is all that matters.

[Kirkis]

Last Resort is world #15, for you who didn't recognize the name. It's a old respectable guild.

However, I would say you're bringing 3 shadow priests due to seniority, or because you don't have warlocks/mages to replace them.

Multi-dotting on faction champions I would find bloody stupid, as eventually they'll heal the small damage you done up, resulting in nothing but 'fake' meter boosting.

And as for Northrend Beasts, on hardmode you want to have all your dps swap to Kobols, due to the Mortal Strike debuff, thus single target dps is important to get them killed as fast as possible.

I consider myself to be "one of the new guys" in the guild, but still haven't lost my spot to a warlock / mage etc in totc. Both normal and heroic. And because the hardmodes are so god damn easy anyway, it doesn't (in my opinion) matter if you brought 1 or 3 shadowpriests. But Do not misunderstand me, I would love to get some love from blizzard regarding my single target dps. But as long as there are no fights like M'uru anymore, I'm not going to go on a strike and yell "more rights to shadowpriests" :P

[Azyoulike]

Blizz seem to get caught out by this every time, and I can't understand why. If you make class A scale with 2 stats, class B scale with 3 and class C scale with 4 then with increasing iLvl class C will dominate and class A will suck.

Even if you make A scale really well with those 2 stats, the fact that the different stats scale multiplicatively means eventually the higher order polynomials are gonna win.

Sure it's a simplicification, but essentially that's where we are, with priests only scaling with SP, crit; most dps with SP/AP, crit, haste and top melee dps scaling with AP, crit, haste & ArPen.

I'm guessing that allowing DoTs and CDs to scale with haste is technically too difficult to do outside an expansion, so if blizz want to keep priests in the position that they don't scale with haste then they need to give us small buffs every content patch.

Hopefully this was an oversight in 3.2 and just part of the overall crappiness of this tier of content and with 3.3 they'll actually make an effort to ensure that all classes are viable in endgame. Since they're cooling down ArPen in 3.2.2 we might get very lucky and see a small buff to shadow in there too, but I'm not optimistic.

The same thing could easily effect Disco in 3.3 given our unusual scaling.

[Nezoia]

Well, honestly I think the current scaling problem is to much emphasis on DoT scaling, and to little on direct damage.

A better way of designing the shadowpriest would be more like a warlock. Make Mind Flay be the equivalent of Shadowbolt / Incinerate, as a main type attack, with DoTs to modify the effect of it.

That said, the Mind Flay Glyph should also be removed, in turn for something more useful.

[gaymer77]

That said, the Mind Flay Glyph should also be removed, in turn for something more useful.

You mean the one that is going to be changed to simply add range to Mind Flay when they do the ICC patch.... :

[Nezoia]

I mean a range boost is pathetic, and in a dungeon like ToC, where range is hardly required, it's a spit on the face that we don't have any other glyph worth using.

Even Blizzard should know that MF scales better than SW at this item level!

[Deleted]

Blizz seem to get caught out by this every time, and I can't understand why. If you make class A scale with 2 stats, class B scale with 3 and class C scale with 4 then with increasing iLvl class C will dominate and class A will suck.

I agree, they are making the same mistakes again and again by blindly adjusting knobs without fully understanding the longterm implications. They could really use some number crushers to help them with simulations, atleast they'd hit the right ballpark. Simulations aren't perfect (or actually they are too perfect) but Simcraft for example always shows the same trends that you can see in game.

[Weena]

I was just saying generally that tab dotting isnt bad and if you choose not to do it in certain encounters its a loss in dps. I'm pretty sure this comment doesnt mention TOC 25:

I'm one of those people who refuse to do the whole tab-target dotting bullshit just to up the meters (unlike our other shadow priest in the guild who suprisingly is higher on meters because he does just that...I've tabbed & seen multiple dots is how I know he does this) because I don't feel that meters show what's really going on...ask any disc priest about meters & they'll agree with me.

Anyway in TOC 25 you can tab dot on 3 fights - beasts of northrend, lord jaraxxas and Anub. (can tab-dot on faction champs but as mentioned its pointless) On beasts of northrend the first bloke with the kolobolds can be tab dotted to great effect, the two two jormungars again can be tab dotted fine and the last guy cannot be tab dotted, if you play well you will not be last on meters. On lord Jaraxxas you can dot him as well as his misteress, once again playing well here will allow you to do well. Finally on Anub you can Dot the two adds that come in and also keep dots on Anub, in p2 when he is chasing you underground and the mobs with 50k or so come you can SW:P them.

While i said that shadowpriests wont come last in fights due to the multi-dotting, i agree with what people are saying in that we are really falling behind with scaling and we are in need of a buff to a single target spell, like mindflay.

[Syrex]

GC is full of shit. He cpuld have just responded (Yes, we read your thread and will take it into consideration) Instead of using dictionary.com + long post to say exactly what I stated above). Gogo do your job even less that Blizzard pays you to. Useless...

[Nezoia]

I was just saying generally that tab dotting isnt bad and if you choose not to do it in certain encounters its a loss in dps.

But it tends to be more about meterwhoring, than effective dps. And rogues doing FoK will still out damage us -.-

Anyway in TOC 25 you can tab dot on 3 fights - beasts of northrend, lord jaraxxas and Anub.

"- On beasts of northrend the first bloke with the kolobolds can be tab dotted to great effect"
Great effect, never the less, nothing compared to melee aoe damage. It's far from the level of say, Yogg Saron.

", the two two jormungars again can be tab dotted fine and the last guy cannot be tab dotted, if you play well you will not be last on meters."
- Anyone actually resets the meter just for the worms? I can't be bothered to epeen about doing most damage in just a phase.

"On lord Jaraxxas you can dot him as well as his misteress"
- And it makes you do more damage than what other class? Are we pretending we're the only class who can attack more than 1 target at the time? if so, LULZ for that.

"Finally on Anub you can Dot the two adds that come in and also keep dots on Anub"
- Which provides a marginal damage increase, and since they're likely to be right on top of melee, the melee AoE (part of their NORMAL ROTATION) will kill it, and beat you on the meters.

", in p2 when he is chasing you underground and the mobs with 50k or so come you can SW:P them. "
- That's what I call meter whoring, more than effective dps

"While i said that shadowpriests wont come last in fights due to the multi-dotting"
- We are, so I don't get where you're getting that from. Stop pretending we're the only class to do effective multi-target dps. Our Ulduar dps positions were more related to Mind Sear, than multi-dotting, lol.

[Weena]

fine ill act like 99% of people on forums from now on

WE NEED MOAR BUFFS CAUSE WE ARE LAST PLEASE READ THIS BLIZZARD PXLPLX WE ARE BAD ETC ETC

Maybe i was wrong for saying "While i said that shadowpriests wont come last in fights due to the multi-dotting", but i am not wrong for saying, this being why i initially posted, that tab-dotting is a dps increased if used correctly and it should be done on the encounters i mentioned.

[Direshadow]

Not sure exactly what the point of this threat is.


Poster - Shadow Priests are concerned about their future, here is why.


Ghostcrawler - stfu, I don't care.


What else is there to say? We all know that Ghostcrawler usually doesn't have any idea wtf he's talking about.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ghostcrawler and his team base all of their changes off of the Elitist Jerks forums... which is scary.

[Nezoia]

fine ill act like 99% of people on forums from now on

That's not the point, I'm just tired of people always saying they're happy with their dps, when they're 1-2 tiers in raid experience behind. Ulduar dps is simply not valid points today. Just as Naxxramas dps wasn't a valid point 3 months ago.

that tab-dotting is a dps increased if used correctly and it should be done on the encounters i mentioned.

Who the bloody hell cares about DPS, when it's about effective damage? Our asset value drops extremely on fights that requires primary single target dps in 2/3 phases (Beasts), or almost pure single target fights (all the other bosses).

Just take the Kobolds, in Phase 1 of Northrend Beasts, fully dotting them up seems such a waste, but without SW:P on we loose 10% damage on Mind Flay. That's just one of the major problems with our dps, it's way to locked.

Sure mages have same issue with scorch, but opposite to SW:P, Scorch benefits every single caster class, our DoT does not, and is nothing but a waste of mana for a marginal dps upgrade, which shouldn't even require the DoT in the first place.

Not sure exactly what the point of this threat is.

Me raising a personal matter with dps, for the community, and relating it to a thread with comments from many top players.

Ideas for a solution:

- Change SW:P glyph to remove the coupling with Mind Flay
- Remove the Mind Flay glyph, and give us something like 5% more MF crit.
- Downscale the damage of Vampiric Embrace, and upscale the damage of Mind Flay.
- Remove the slow effect of Mind Flay, this should be available though a PvP glyph instead.

And as for Cataclysm, give us a 3/5 minute nuke-cooldown, to help pushing the dps a bit on things like XT's Heart Phase, where everybody need a little extra nuke.

Coupling our only DPS cooldown with our only viable way of returning mana without loosing dps (Shadowfiend), is stupid.

[Strykzor]

1. Scaling
-Our talent trees are pretty solid but our spell coefficients let us down, this is why we were okay on damage done at the start of the expansion (think kara and naxx).


2. Utility/Niches
Redundant;
-Misery 3% hit is less and less useful thanks to high itemlvls.
-Replenish is given by numerous VIABLE classes.
-Mindsear is loosing its touch, LB spam, FoK, RoF, Volly all good AoE spells too.
-Multidot can be useful but there is only a handful of fights that have this viability, we want something that is CONSTANT that makes us do decent damage.
-Fort/Spi provided by Healing priests, every raid has them.
-VE Useless Group heal
-Survivability every other class seems to do fine without any Shadowform or VE healing, why does it matter that a Spriest does?

When it comes to high end progression raiding there is no point to bring a shadowpriest to a raid.

[syanid]

Tab-dotting on an encounter where nuking a target (or two) as fast as possible is borderline useless.

And as previously said, we really don't have any usefulness in raid environment. Replenishment is brought by tons of classes, ret paladin is a popular choice for 2nd source of replenishment.
Locks have Imp. Shadowbolt but they don't use it, so scorch is mages' responsibility. I don't see anyone else bringing that in, yet there are 5 replenishment classes.
Moonkin's Misery is way better than ours and the list just goes on.

At the end of the day, when I look at the stats of the raid I see shadowpriests doing their best (huge dot uptime, MB casted every 7.5 - 7.6 seconds) and I really can't complain that our players are bad. However, it's better to bring an extra warlock or an extra rogue (or whatever) since they do more damage and are more useful.
We were great in Ulduar progression. Someone said that we own the hell out of Mimiron hard mode, however we got warriors doing 7k dps there and shadowpriests are taking up between 10th and 5th position on damage done there.
Destruction warlocks are doing awesome on Yogg + 1, and aren't far behind shadow priests (a few thousand damage done only).

There are many ways how to sort shadow priest scaling (like letting dots tick based on haste and other suggestions we had here), but I just don't see it being done.
Anyway, we used to bring 3 shadow priest per raid. Due to Coliseum and the nature of it we're down to 1 or 2.

[Lostprophet]

What Kirkis said is somehow true.

TotGC is not that hard. The Fights ive see doesnt need really hard DPS, most are just more Heal intense..But Anub will be a DPS Race, atleast in 10man it was.
There i can see that the Raidleader wont take 3 Shadows... even in Last Resort

But thats doesnt change the fact that we are on the bottom line..even with perfect Dotuptime & MB usage. And the most annoying thing is... its fucking frustrating when I can do more DPS on my alt..(its a Feral druid which has 2 t8.5 / 3t8 200iLvL rings & Trinkets...)

May be my alt will soon my Main if when the other Shadow will raid activ again(im the only shadow right now)

[Weena]

And the most annoying thing is... its fucking frustrating when I can do more DPS on my alt..(its a Feral druid which has 2 t8.5 / 3t8 200iLvL rings & Trinkets...)

wow sounds like me