1. #4021
    damn sorry for stating the reasoning behind why I didn't take the fear reduction talent.

  2. #4022
    Brewmaster Fredzilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    That one place
    Posts
    1,412
    Quote Originally Posted by Alenko View Post
    damn sorry for stating the reasoning behind why I didn't take the fear reduction talent.
    The point of all this was to show exactly WHY you shouldn't take Divine Intellect period. It is a 99% worthless talent for us, and if you take the healing talent, it would make your remaining 2 points, if you put them in DI, 99.99% worthless. The reduction in fear and disorient helps in more situations than just ICC, because there are a lot of people who do a lot of other things outside off ICC. And even if you don't, the less time you're feared on BQL the more time you have to get the hell away from other people so you don't kill them.
    "You little hoochees!" - Daos, Lord of Terror

    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    "NEENER-NEENER RETS ARE WIENERS."

  3. #4023
    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice View Post
    Criticizing the extra 600 (50x) healing vs the extra 250 mana is pretty comical.

    If the link below takes you to the screen intended, you can see that I cast Flash of Light 86 times which yielded over 676k healing while contributing another 267k healing via the Sheath of Light HoT. 100% of that healing was effective. Unfortunately, this attempt was a wipe because the holy pally lost his stack. It is not uncommon for me to cast FoL 40-50 times in a single Dreamwalker kill.

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/47moa...?s=5951&e=6387

    ---------- Post added 2010-08-24 at 07:44 PM ----------

    Its a good thing that Kayla is providing the haste buff for your raid though. Your 8 boss deaths to her 1 would have been a pretty significant DPS/Healing loss for your whole raid. Perhaps if your FoL's healed for more.....
    Haha, this is awesome, you link a parse where you are nearly dead last on dps because you spend the entire fight healing, and tell me how wonderful a talent is you took because you stand around healing with it. On a fight where you are incapable of overhealing and holy priests are cycling guardian spirit on your target, that talent provided you with ~72k healing, since you would have healed for ~604k w/o it.

    Also, ignoring the fact that yes, I do die a lot in raids, I die constantly on trash, and everytime our healers let a tank die, I'm usually one of the first 2 to go. I am having a hard time finding the parse where I died 8 times to bosses where Kayla only died once. And by all means, if you find it, feel free to share, since I'll guarantee its either a progression night on H LK or H RS, like I know this last week Kayla left 2 hours before the end of raid time on a night of H LK wipes.

  4. #4024
    Fluffy Kitten Badpaladin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    ccaarrrrllllll
    Posts
    11,122
    Blue, I've put in over 200 attmepts on HLK from no buff to the 2nd week of 15%, and I can tell you straight up that 12% more healong on FoL is VERY much worth it. If one of your healers gets picked up on valks, you HAVE to offheal the next infest or it is going to be a wipe, period. Obviously it was much more needed at 5%-15%(time when my guild was actually making progress through valks --> getting to p3 very consistently) than at 30%, but the point still stand that the minisule mana gain and tiny spell crit won't help as much as more healing.
    My Short Required Reading List: One. Two. || Last.fm

  5. #4025
    Quote Originally Posted by Badpaladin View Post
    Blue, I've put in over 200 attmepts on HLK from no buff to the 2nd week of 15%, and I can tell you straight up that 12% more healong on FoL is VERY much worth it. If one of your healers gets picked up on valks, you HAVE to offheal the next infest or it is going to be a wipe, period. Obviously it was much more needed at 5%-15%(time when my guild was actually making progress through valks --> getting to p3 very consistently) than at 30%, but the point still stand that the minisule mana gain and tiny spell crit won't help as much as more healing.
    Believe it or not, I agree with this, I wish I could say we were even getting consistently to valk's phase, but we're not. We lack the skill as a raid group to really do the H LK encounter, I'm nearly positive our dps is too low still and our healers let people die to Infest even when they aren't being carried off by valks.

    The point I was trying to make is that of course a +healing talent is going to look better if you go out of your way to heal, but short of a very few circumstances its a dps loss just to cast heals, let alone the clutch moments when heals are needed. Both talents are complete shit, but if as a ret pally you are called on more frequently than maybe 3-5 times a night to save someone then someone else in your raid group isn't doing their job. And when you are needed to heal a little bit, its the act of you actually having the sense of mind to cast the FoL that saves people, you're never gonna try and save someone and wish your FoL had done 600 more healing.

  6. #4026
    Fluffy Kitten Badpaladin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    ccaarrrrllllll
    Posts
    11,122
    If infest is an issue then run an Aura Mastery rotation that people follow to the dime. My old guild had four paladins...myself and the other ret would AM, and the holy paladins would AM one infest and DG the other. Basically, a cooldown every single infest, and it gave us a good blanket to forumlate strategy around. After the healers got the hang of it at 5% and 10% we stopped the rotation and only used AM or DG in clutch situations(like a bad infest or whatever), but it took a good number of attempts to reach that point.

    But I digress, overall it's just the smarter talent to pick. Now I'm not human anymore so that's why I picked up the reduced fear talent, but I wouldn't fret that one so much.

    Prentice is also a whore for not responding to my PM about the rig I'm building.
    My Short Required Reading List: One. Two. || Last.fm

  7. #4027
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Crushridge casually
    Posts
    3,538
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluerelic View Post
    Haha, this is awesome, you link a parse where you are nearly dead last on dps because you spend the entire fight healing, and tell me how wonderful a talent is you took because you stand around healing with it. On a fight where you are incapable of overhealing and holy priests are cycling guardian spirit on your target, that talent provided you with ~72k healing, since you would have healed for ~604k w/o it.

    Also, ignoring the fact that yes, I do die a lot in raids, I die constantly on trash, and everytime our healers let a tank die, I'm usually one of the first 2 to go. I am having a hard time finding the parse where I died 8 times to bosses where Kayla only died once. And by all means, if you find it, feel free to share, since I'll guarantee its either a progression night on H LK or H RS, like I know this last week Kayla left 2 hours before the end of raid time on a night of H LK wipes.
    Its Dreamwalker and you want to comment on me contributing effectively to a boss encounter. If your raid can't kill the adds quickly without your assistance, I feel bad for you.

    I will take back the deaths comment though. It appears that the WoL parse included all of your deaths to wipes but only one of Kayla's. The raid I was referring to was last Tuesday, but that's a moot point.

    Our gear being very similar in overall level, I feel that I am contributing quite a bit more than you are and not just on Dreamwalker. Just my opinion, but to each his own. Others may be of the same opinion as you and they're entitled to that opinion as well.

    Me:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/m1vdq...?s=2647&e=2847
    You:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/m1vdq...?s=2647&e=2847

    Why would you even bring up Guardian Spirit?? We don't have any holy priests, but you already knew that because you were very thorough with the parses. In that attempt, I did just over 8k DPS. You did 9k DPS. In the following attempt where we passed the encounter, I did 10k DPS while casting 50 FoL's. I am still trying to figure out the point you are trying to make.

    Worry less about inferior talents and more about your time on target, imo. There shouldn't be a 3.7k DPS difference between you and me on a tank n' spank fight.

    EDIT: Using Speed Potions would be a good start.
    EDIT2: And you failed to include the talents application to the Sheath of Light HoT (x2). The real talent contribution was much closer to 120k that fight.
    EDIT3: If Kayla left two hours early on LK attempts, who was providing 3% Haste?
    Last edited by Prentice; 2010-08-24 at 09:26 PM.

    Win7(64)Pro - Intel 3770K @ 4.5GHz - 4x4GB DDR3 G Skill Ripjaws X - XFX Radeon HD 7970 - OCZ Vertex 3 240GB SSD

  8. #4028
    Stood in the Fire Jesmam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Rockin' the inn of Valley of Wisdom
    Posts
    350
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluerelic View Post
    Haha, this is awesome, you link a parse where you are nearly dead last on dps because you spend the entire fight healing, and tell me how wonderful a talent is you took because you stand around healing with it.
    This made me rofl. You know that it's Dreamwalker right? You're supposed to heal and help the raid anyways And like Prentice said, if your raid REALLY need you to focus 100% on the adds to get them down then I too feel sorry for you. Your playing a hybrid, get used to it and accept the fact that you have to heal people somewhere along the way. Otherwise you're not playing your character at the best level you can.
    90 Ele shammy: Skithiryx
    90 Combat Rogue: Mukiloija <- Alt

    Animelist

  9. #4029
    You linked the parse to me twice, but don't worry, I went and found a parse with you in it

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/47moa...?s=2221&e=2379

    Your kill time was the better part of a minute faster than ours, now this won't account for the dps difference, but try to keep things in perspective, your guild is on a whole other level compared to mine and you're using a 284 weapon and had just enough time to pop wings twice. On top of that, you used consumables that I didn't, mind you I usually do if you scroll back a week or two you'll see I go through plenty of Potions of Speed, but we basically do ICC25 on auto pilot through the first 8 bosses, I can't really find it on WoL, but I'm fairly certain I wasn't even flasked.

    Admittedly, I should heal more, I basically spend the entire time I'm on dreamwalker standing around waiting for something worth meleeing to come out of the doors on my side, I do usually pop wings and throw LoH at some point during the fight, but I could easily bust out my focus macro and FoL in between mobs. But, even on your own parses you used FoL i believe 150 times that night, and 137 were on two valithria attempts. Thats a great fight to heal on, and I would be a better pally for helping out. But, we're talking about 2 completely shit talents, and you use the +healing talent primarily for 1 encounter, I picked up the Int talent because I can't remember the last time I healed anything in a raid. But, Badpaladin made a good point, as we move forward on HLK, maybe I'll want to have more healing utility for Infests, or shit, maybe those nights where I have to heal myself on H Sindy it won't take as long to get into the clear. I was wrong, the talent has situational functionality, but if there were even a semi-viable dps choice at that tier in Holy this wouldn't even be a discussion, no one would sacrifice a real dps talent for a +healing talent.

  10. #4030
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Crushridge casually
    Posts
    3,538
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluerelic View Post
    You linked the parse to me twice, but don't worry, I went and found a parse with you in it

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/47moa...?s=2221&e=2379
    Whoops!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluerelic View Post
    you're using a 284 weapon
    My weapon to yours minus your legs to mine = 380 DPS. Truthfully, all of the other excuses are ..... excuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluerelic View Post
    I was wrong, the talent has situational functionality, but if there were even a semi-viable dps choice at that tier in Holy this wouldn't even be a discussion, no one would sacrifice a real dps talent for a +healing talent.
    Indeed. If there was one, this conversation never would have taken place.

    Win7(64)Pro - Intel 3770K @ 4.5GHz - 4x4GB DDR3 G Skill Ripjaws X - XFX Radeon HD 7970 - OCZ Vertex 3 240GB SSD

  11. #4031
    Stood in the Fire Jesmam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Rockin' the inn of Valley of Wisdom
    Posts
    350
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluerelic View Post
    I was wrong, the talent has situational functionality, but if there were even a semi-viable dps choice at that tier in Holy this wouldn't even be a discussion, no one would sacrifice a real dps talent for a +healing talent.
    That's also true but like I used bold on the quote, we're discussing talent points in Holy-tree. There isn't/and shouldn't be any dps talents. That's the healing part of our class. And thus making us a hybrid class. But my true opinion on the 5 talent points spent at that tier is, that it really is everyone's own choice what to use. Me myself used 5/5 DI for a long time, and didn't even concider changing the points anywhere else, but after entering ICC and learning the fights I chose to change them. And one of the reasons was Dreamwalker, making the fight a little faster and easier. Also throwing a random FoL to the others in my raid sometimes has saved a 11k DPS not to die.
    90 Ele shammy: Skithiryx
    90 Combat Rogue: Mukiloija <- Alt

    Animelist

  12. #4032
    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice View Post
    My weapon to yours minus your legs to mine = 380 DPS. Truthfully, all of the other excuses are ..... excuses.
    You don't think that your 45 second faster kill time somehow makes a difference? Its the Patchwerk effect, the faster you kill the boss, the higher your dps looks. Higher up time on buffs like Avenging Wrath, Potions, Heroism/Bloodlust. You spend a greater % of the fight under a dps increasing buff and your dps will be just plain higher. Thats not an excuse, thats just how it is.

  13. #4033
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Crushridge casually
    Posts
    3,538
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluerelic View Post
    You don't think that your 45 second faster kill time somehow makes a difference? Its the Patchwerk effect, the faster you kill the boss, the higher your dps looks. Higher up time on buffs like Avenging Wrath, Potions, Heroism/Bloodlust. You spend a greater % of the fight under a dps increasing buff and your dps will be just plain higher. Thats not an excuse, thats just how it is.
    Right, but that's a choice that you and the members of your guild are making. Choosing not to use pots, food, flasks, or half-assing the fight etc. The difference between your gear and mine is not very great.

    Win7(64)Pro - Intel 3770K @ 4.5GHz - 4x4GB DDR3 G Skill Ripjaws X - XFX Radeon HD 7970 - OCZ Vertex 3 240GB SSD

  14. #4034
    Quote Originally Posted by Prentice View Post
    Right, but that's a choice that you and the members of your guild are making. Choosing not to use pots, food, flasks, or half-assing the fight etc. The difference between your gear and mine is not very great.
    Well, no, our gear isn't that different, and for many of my guild members they aren't half-assing it, they just don't perform at the same level as better guilds, like yours for instance. They are good people, but I have no delusions of their quality as players. What I am saying is my dps is formidable, and would look a lot better had I been surrounded by other good players who also have good dps, thus lowering the fight time. And I have no excuse for my own lack of consumables, I'm usually all over the speed pots, I just picked up engineering and hoping to see a dps increase with my bombs and new haste proc. We'll see how tonight's farm goes.

  15. #4035
    Looks good to me, Bluerelic.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...zad&n=Enfeeble

    My retribution set, my main spec.

  16. #4036
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ilas&cn=Therez

    I know there is no shoulder enchant - only just upgraded with the token yesterday
    I know hit rating is a little high but im not really trying for it - just seems to be the way gear goes these days - ilvl 277 items really need hit rating ><

  17. #4037
    Field Marshal Jon The Wizard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Close To A Mailbox
    Posts
    64
    @Beno

    ...Dude, trade gear with me!


    Mine

    I know I'm pretty over the hit cap, I'll re-do my gems/enchants later after I get some more emblems (why waste good gold at the AH?). Also going for a new belt once I get the Frost emblems.
    Last edited by Jon The Wizard; 2010-08-25 at 12:40 AM. Reason: Didn't rate last guy. Sorry!
    Jorundr, Blood Elf Paladin
    Quote Originally Posted by Belkar Bitterleaf
    "Run, my pretty little chunks of XP, run!"

  18. #4038
    Fluffy Kitten Badpaladin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    ccaarrrrllllll
    Posts
    11,122
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluerelic View Post
    Well, no, our gear isn't that different, and for many of my guild members they aren't half-assing it, they just don't perform at the same level as better guilds, like yours for instance. They are good people, but I have no delusions of their quality as players. What I am saying is my dps is formidable, and would look a lot better had I been surrounded by other good players who also have good dps, thus lowering the fight time. And I have no excuse for my own lack of consumables, I'm usually all over the speed pots, I just picked up engineering and hoping to see a dps increase with my bombs and new haste proc. We'll see how tonight's farm goes.
    Make a forum post on your guild website, and link this:

    Speed Use: 9 players using them, 20 being the highest number for your priest out of 27 uses potentially possibly per person(alliteration is fucking awesome). Obsiously not every spec double pots speed, but you get a decent idea.

    Wild magic Use: 2 players using them(likely pre-pot due to haste not being as good as a pre-pot for most casters), highest use is 3.

    I'm not going to break down who's not having good % spell uptime, effective cooldowns for your raid, I'm not going to break out the expression editor and see who failed hardcore at attacking the wrong stuff for your wipes on PP....but you get the idea. There's a ton the guild could do to boost your own performance, and some of them are as simple as just pre-potting and getting a 2nd potion use during heroism or whatever.((by the way, if you do need any hardcore parse analysis send a PM, I'm pretty well-versed on finding out every single little thing somebody did in raid with wol))

    Quite frankly I think you've handled the "MMO ret paladin bashing" pretty damn well, so don't take what all of us say as "RAAAAAAA GET OUT WE HATE YOU"! Glad to see you picked up engineering, it's a small boost to DPS and a MASSIVE raid utility boost with booties. But yeah, talk to your guild and get them motivated to perform better. It's pretty amazing what ranking on a few fights does for guild morale, let alone progression.
    My Short Required Reading List: One. Two. || Last.fm

  19. #4039
    Brewmaster Fredzilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    That one place
    Posts
    1,412
    I think it's funny that when people started going back to what this thread is about, everyone pretty much ignored it by either continuing the previous argument or not rating the people and just inserting their links.

    @Phosey - Move your NMT from your weapon to your chest and gem straight str in bryn. Everything else is fine.

    @Beno - Without using Rawr, my best idea at lowering your dps is by getting the frost leather belt and fester 25's gloves. Get rid of the str/stam gem and replace it with an NMT. Gem straight str in your legs. You should use Rawr to see whether or not you should be gemming str/crit in your AV ring, it may or may not be a dps loss compared to straight str. You have 5 points in DI. You can read all about why you shouldn't.

    @Jon - I don't understand your gemming at all. You should gem straight str with an NMT in a blue/red socket combo, str/crit in yellow sockets on their own or with red socket(s) when the bonus is +4 str or more. You should also be using the 21agi/3%crit meta (relentless earthsiege). You also need Berserking, 23 haste to cloak, and to not gem icewalker when you're over hit cap. Your spec should be 11/5/55. Your glyphs should be SoV, Judge, and Cons.
    "You little hoochees!" - Daos, Lord of Terror

    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    "NEENER-NEENER RETS ARE WIENERS."

  20. #4040
    pff i use this thread to /cheer @myself. 10 shards tonight, with lk still up. leaves me 8 away, and i finally got a h tier token. as well as our guild finally got its second h taj. i think i'm going to need two more to drop now. my guild merged with a alliance guild on the server, so now we have almost 50 raiders, i assume a ton are about to transfer/leave/stop raiding. but with them came another enh that needed it. and since they used the exact same dkp system as us we combined the list, and that guy has me beat. oh well, their guild had amazing luck with taj. all of their rets and rogues had them.
    Pondering returning.
    Nikoll - Retribution Paladin

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •