Loot question concerning holy priest mana regen

[Elicium]

I have a silly question (sorry).

I used to be holy for a long, long time -even did my leveling as a holy priest. But lately (since Naxx) I've been doing what I like to do which is playing as shadow (with disc as my pvp and healer spec).

Yesterday, my raid group was happily clearing ToC 25 and during that raid the Wail of the Val'kyr and Gloves of the Lifeless Touch dropped. A holy priest, who is usually an amazing raid healer, bid for both items (and actually got the Wail of the Val'kyr).

My concern as the RL is that I see both items as dps. Yes they have some great crit which can help with certain talents and the haste/spellpower is nice. I was also thinking that having 1 item like that might help round out your stats.

But, if he keeps gearing up without any spirit or mp5 I really see him going OOM very quickly. I know holy priests have talents that make crit nice and I know intellect helps, but to be gearing on items without trying for spirit/mp5 seems
somewhat suicidal. When I talked to him about it he said spirit basically sucks and he's not interested in it and wants crit.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks.

[Zeuq]

Having a couple pieces without Spirit is perfectly fine and can be a nice way to allow some flexibility in keeping a minimum amount of Haste or Crit while switching gear around or to squeeze in a little extra of one that you may really prefer. Personally, I don't think I have one since I only get Crit up to a certain point after which I feel like the diminishing returns aren't really worth it so, at that point, I can stack Spirit/Haste gear.

I will say, however, that his reasoning seems a little flawed. A large part of what makes Crit good is Spirit through Holy Concentration, so giving up too much Spirit for Crit doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. There does seem to be a fair amount of antispiritism going on amongst Holy Priests these days and, honestly, I don't get it. Yes, Intellect is better for pure regen, so if you need some serious regen Intellect is definitely the way to go. However, Spirit still provides decent regen--it's actually better in situations where FSR time can be squeezed out--and, of course, it gives Spell Power too. So, IMO, unless you're really low on Crit (say, below 25% Raid buffed), I think Spirit is generally better and will provide better regen and throughput.

[Selerious]

Just my opinion.

He's an idiot if as a Holy Priest he actually said that "Spirit Sucks"

There are times I've looked at those drops and thought they'd be nice for the Crit/Haste combo. And a piece here and there couldn't really hurt. Honestly though, if it doesn't have spirit on it, for me that's a pretty big deterrence right there. With the Talents in Holy, we gain a lot of Mp5, as well as spell power from Spirit (Spiritual Guidance, Holy Concentration, Meditation). The Spirit on the new gear, usually around 50-90 per item is pretty big for both MP5 and spell power.
As Disc, Crit is more important, and spirit looses out.. But if your Holy, Spirit is never a "Sucky" stat.

[kronpas]

holy priest today wont gem and enchant for spirit, but cannot ignore it completely. We are still healers after all, and while crit is nice for holy, we dont have talent which returns mana via critting like pallies (even holy pallies roll on gear with mp5 now).

He s a completely idiot.

[Danner]

Good reply Zeuq!

The int vs spirit issue basically boils down to the fact that 1 int gives more measurable regen income than 1 spirit, assuming full raidbuffs and some 20% uptime on holy concentration which is quite common. Increase the Holyconc uptime (which you achieve by increasing crit) will also increase the returns of spirit, but there are diminishing returns on this gain. There is also one major advantage in favor of intellect that is missing from this equation:

Intellect also increase your longevity by simply adding 15 int. This an amazingly major point. Having a 30k manapook is just that much better than having a 20k manapool and some spirit to boot. Reason being that fights don't usually last very long, and if they do, int is still superior.

As you point out, crit is mostly used for proccing holy concentration. Apart from that, crit doesn't really give a lot to a holypriest, and if you already have a build focusing on intellect, you can downgrade crit for more haste instead. Which will make you a significantly better healing machine as you are suddenly focusing on two stats instead of four.

It's sad, I really want spirit to be our top stat. But int is simply a better pick.

That said, spirit is anything but a bad stat. My gear is still spirit heavy

[Ticktac]

I hate to do this, but there seems to be some sensible people commenting here. I too am caught up in the Intell/Spirit debate for my own personal reasons. I try to keep everything pretty even between the two stats when self buffed. Here is my armory, http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...her&n=Neoumbra I would love some suggestions to help tweak what I have going on. FYI I also have the Spirit trinket from Naxx, but I was doing some heroics last night so I swapped for the egg to have some added 50% life 3 stacks of serendipty fun.

[Elicium]

I just wanted to thank everyone that responded to the post. Got a lot of great answer and information.

[Worshaka]

Firstly... there is no 'dps' or 'healing' items anymore... obviously the ones that contain hit would be of little use to a healer and similarly items with mp/5 are of little use to dps. However on occasion those items do becomes BiS for the opposite role... for example the Torch of Holy Fire was by far the best spriest weapon available in the first tier of content.

Personally I think there is always value to extending your mana pool. It allows you to spam harder or provides a buffer for when shit happens. For example a fellow healer dies early, or your raid stands in a bit too much fire, or you lose some dps and the encounter is 1 min longer... etc.

However, there is a strategy that once you feel you have a mana pool that is large enough that you gear for throughput. That isn't my strategy but that doesn't make it invalid. In this case your priest is obviously going for throughput items and you really have to put faith in them that they know their class and they are comfortable with their mana pool.

I would say though that the item in question may have been more benefit to your dps and from a raid perspective it's good to see individuals identify when something is of more benefit to others and pass on those items for that very reason. This is another reason why I always go for items that are more focused on the role i'm playing.

[harky]

Haste and Crit are both more important than Spirit and MP/5 once you're in even Naxx level gear. Int is the regen stat in Wrath, not spirit. Int is literally twice as good as Spirit. The best way to compare is with gems really:

1 Int gem: 16.34 mp/5, .12% crit
1 Spi gem: 7.3 mp/5, 5 SP
1 mp/5 gem: 10 mp/5

Spirit is better than mp/5 to stack for Holy, not because of regen, but because of small spellpower gains. Int is the big regen stat to stack in raids though, not spirit. Haste and Crit really are more important, especially haste. Holy really likes to float at 14% haste, around 30% crit and a total of 500 mp/5 while casting when raid buffed. The 500 mp/5 goal is the easiest to obtain. I'd be a lot more worried about a Priest who has less than 25k mana than one who is passing up Spirit. It's pretty low priority.

[Mosaes]

I think what is often left out of these spirit/int-Item discussions is the fact that these Items have both Int AND Spirit.

Sure in a 1 to 1 comparison Int is often better then spirit, but the real question in this topic should be is : Is X haste/crit better then X spirit!

Being Holy myself I would never consider picking up an Item with no spirit on it (trinket or weapon excluded) simply because I havent found a single item worth losing the stat for.

Sure, its nice to have for disc. or Shadow second equip but if ur holy and your not going for spirit items your doing something wrong.

[harky]

Sure, its nice to have for disc. or Shadow second equip but if ur holy and your not going for spirit items your doing something wrong.

Uh... Spellpower > Int > Haste > Crit > Spirit. Crit and Haste are point per point better throughput than Spirit, while Int is twice as good for regen and Spellpower is of course a monster for throughput. Spirit should be taken over MP/5, but not over Haste/Crit. The only reason to take Spirit over MP/5 is the minor gain in SP, but that gain is quite inferior to the gains from Crit and Haste. Once you hit 30-40% crit Spirit becomes a great deal better for regen though. Of course, you need to be gearing more for Crit to get to that point anyway. Your main goal as holy should be to maximize spellpower, int and maintain around 14% haste. If picking up more spirit helps with that, go for it, otherwise... no. That said there's never a reason to gem spirit except for socket bonuses and meta requirements.

[-Ethos-]

but if ur holy and your not going for spirit items your doing something wrong.

Too many priests on these boards are living in Burning Crusade.

[Kelesti]

Too many priests on these boards are living in Burning Crusade.

Really? Because the first half of TBC was all mp5, 100% of it.

Spirit is behind int, but the difference isn't by much when you factor Holy Concentration into the mix. Spirit also adds a bit to your thoroughput, not as much as raw spellpower, but it's stable. And it's both.

Going Spirit isn't a bad route, so long as you can balance it with Intellect.

[frosty112]

I stack spirit. Hugely second only too crit and occasional haste. Raid buffed i believe im about 10% haste, 22k mana, 2900 spell power and 1.4k ooc regen, putting me at about 950 in. As a holy priest it is your main job in a raid to AoE heal. If you've been asigned or are trying to do something else, stop! There's another thing for that, its called disc. Whilst raid healing i find myself healing around 10 targets every 4 or 5 seconds, peaking at 16 targets every 6 seconds with PoM and CoH luck/cool downs. There will be atleast 2 crits within these 10 - 16 heals, and one of them will undoubtedly trigger Holy Concentration.

The fact that im sitting with holy concentration up constantly, combined with other talents and spell power gains of spirit makes it almost stupid to pass by. Anyone who's stacking int realy needs to look at it like this- Any mana left at the end of an encounter is a waste of efficiency, taking cooldowns into account aswell. Now ofcourse this may 'vary' in the field but from personal experience i can say whole heartedly spirit is the most efficent way to go as a holy priest. Compared to the two other holy priests in our raid, one who has even better gear than myself, on fights such as IC Hardmode, i'l be pulling 6.8k HPS consistantly throughout the fight whilst the other holy priest who has bundled int and haste is sitting on 3 - 4k. Meters are by no means everything, but damn that should atleast prove that int is not the way for a holy priest. Specialy considering the nerf to Replenishment.

[Kelesti]

Whilst raid healing i find myself healing around 10 targets every 4 or 5 seconds, peaking at 16 targets every 6 seconds with PoM and CoH luck/cool downs. There will be atleast 2 crits within these 10 - 16 heals, and one of them will undoubtedly trigger Holy Concentration.

You might be thinking of Surge of Light. If not, you need to read the talent again:
Holy Concentration:
Rank 3/3
Your mana regeneration from spirit is increased by 50% for 8 seconds after you critically heal with Flash Heal, Greater Heal, Binding Heal or Empowered Renew.

Just thought I'd help you clear that up again.

The fact that im sitting with holy concentration up constantly, combined with other talents and spell power gains of spirit makes it almost stupid to pass by. Anyone who's stacking int realy needs to look at it like this- Any mana left at the end of an encounter is a waste of efficiency, taking cooldowns into account aswell. Now ofcourse this may 'vary' in the field but from personal experience i can say whole heartedly spirit is the most efficent way to go as a holy priest. Compared to the two other holy priests in our raid, one who has even better gear than myself, on fights such as IC Hardmode, i'l be pulling 6.8k HPS consistantly throughout the fight whilst the other holy priest who has bundled int and haste is sitting on 3 - 4k. Meters are by no means everything, but damn that should atleast prove that int is not the way for a holy priest. Specialy considering the nerf to Replenishment.

Any mana left at the end of the fight you call a waste. While quite a few priests agree on this matter, a few disagree. But if you're stacking spirit as hard as you claim you are, to keep your mana up, it's the same thing. 100%.

[G l o w y r m]

Remember the more spirit you have the more you get out of your int since they are both part of the same formula and boost each other.

I wouldn't all out stack spr, but for Holy, since it does help with SP and Holy Concentration, it's still very worth it to pick up.

[-Ethos-]

Really? Because the first half of TBC was all mp5, 100% of it.

So when does the first half end? The only gear you should've kept from vanilla was rejuv gem and after that was PMC and whitemend which were replaced by Incarnate.


@OP. This thread has basically turned into people who stack regen vs people who stack throughput. Since the revamp to the way our trees work crit, haste and spellpower are what we should be taking once our regen is at a comfortable point. Int, spirit and MP5 are the three ways of working our regen. Much to the dismay of many priests who uphold the belief of "spirit is god", gearing towards MP5 or gearing towards Int are both very viable ways of setting out your gear.

The priest in your guild is taking Wail because it is ridiculously good from a throughput perspective. The heroic version of the neck should be rated BiS for anyone who knows how to finish a fight with at least 1 point of mana.

[harky]

Compared to the two other holy priests in our raid, one who has even better gear than myself, on fights such as IC Hardmode, i'l be pulling 6.8k HPS consistantly throughout the fight whilst the other holy priest who has bundled int and haste is sitting on 3 - 4k. Meters are by no means everything, but damn that should atleast prove that int is not the way for a holy priest. Specialy considering the nerf to Replenishment.

Yeah, the nerf to replenishment took Int from three times better than Spirit, to only being twice as good for regen. MP/5 is also about 20% better for regen. Meanwhile Crit, Haste and straight SP all do better than Spirit for throughput point per point. Your example only goes to prove that you snipe heals better than the other Priests. Congratulations? With three Holy Priests who else is raid healing? Are any of the other Holy Priests assigned to a tank? That doesn't really show anything except that you're too attached to Spirit. Just because you do better than your guild mates does not mean you're doing as well as you could be. Have fun stacking Spirit though. I hear having lower SP and mana regen is a good thing.

[Worshaka]

Yeah, the nerf to replenishment took Int from three times better than Spirit, to only being twice as good for regen. MP/5 is also about 20% better for regen. Meanwhile Crit, Haste and straight SP all do better than Spirit for throughput point per point. Your example only goes to prove that you snipe heals better than the other Priests. Congratulations? With three Holy Priests who else is raid healing? Are any of the other Holy Priests assigned to a tank? That doesn't really show anything except that you're too attached to Spirit. Just because you do better than your guild mates does not mean you're doing as well as you could be. Have fun stacking Spirit though. I hear having lower SP and mana regen is a good thing.

This is completely untrue. Here is a different take on spirit regen and this site is maintained by a well respected theroycrafter. As you can see the difference between Int & Spirit is marginal at best.

Considering the talents in the Holy tree that convert spirit to SP I don't see how stacking spirit would lead to lower SP. I'd love to hear the theory on that. You would also notice that while SP is considered a very good throughput stat it's not the best on offer and generally SP isn't that high on the priority list.

[Azyoulike]

A holy priest, who is usually an amazing raid healer, bid for both items (and actually got the Wail of the Val'kyr).

My concern as the RL is that I see both items as dps. Yes they have some great crit which can help with certain talents and the haste/spellpower is nice. I was also thinking that having 1 item like that might help round out your stats.

But, if he keeps gearing up without any spirit or mp5 I really see him going OOM very quickly.

If he's an amazing raid healer then clearly he's doing ok managing his mana and maybe feels he wants some throughput gear for shorter and more intense fights - I wouldn't start worrying about it unless he starts OOMing in fights where he shouldn't.

Once your regen is sufficient to run the content you're doing more is wasted.