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  1. #41

    Re: New 8/0/63 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by syanid
    Brainiac, Improved Fortitude increases YOUR HEALTH POOL TOO by a nice amount, that's why it's important, not because someone else brings it in.
    Because 4% stam coming out to what, 500 health, is gamebreaking amirite? Here, let me pull out the retarded VE argument: "It shouldn't matter or be worth anything unless you're healers are made of fail". The fights that 4% stam makes a real difference aren't all that big. But it's there. Just like nights you get a big warlock stone and nights you get a tiny one. Oh well.

    Edit: And you missed the part where I said it was for 25's, where in spec'ing into it and Inner Focus will probably be better than Shadow Affinity for 10's. So go ahead, flame on.

    Do yourself a favor and delete the game, you're boring to no end and stupid as fuck, all your suggestions are so stupid and I doubt you even stepped outside of naxx anyway.
    Whatever helps you keep stroking yourself at night.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  2. #42

    Re: New 8/0/63 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by syanid
    Brainiac, Improved Fortitude increases YOUR HEALTH POOL TOO by a nice amount, that's why it's important, not because someone else brings it in.

    Do yourself a favor and delete the game, you're boring to no end and stupid as fuck, all your suggestions are so stupid and I doubt you even stepped outside of naxx anyway.
    Take your sassy attitude and please remove yourself from this world. Fire should not be fought with fire.

    Also, by the way, this thread has caused a lot of discussion for something that is by now only speculation as I've yet to see someone actually playing a shadow priest on the ptr post about their mana efficiency in raids. Anyhow, I bet some people with take this spec, some people will take some other spec, and they will not do the same dps. However, this is because they have different gear and different skills, not because they didn't put three points in shadow affinity instead of meditation.
    If I was a Blizz server technician, I'd hijack a server and use it to download porn 24/7. Guess why the instance servers always are full B]

  3. #43

    Re: New 8/0/63 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Considering the Improved Spirit Tap changes, and where mana is "at" at this state of the game, I was kind of wondering whether Meditation is worth 5 talent points. We all raid with healing priests of some sort (or at least, 90% of us), so Improved Fortitude gives us, what, 4% stam?

    Mana's abundant. But not abundant enough to drop 100% of our regen. So why not take the 3 points from Meditation, and 2 from Improved Fortitude, and flesh out the Improved Spirit Tap? I mean, given current crit setups, it should have 100% (or close to it) uptime, and finally puts to rest that same old "Shadow Affinity+Imp VE or ST+IST?" debate, because now you get BOTH.

    I dunno, that's just my thinking, anyways. What're your thoughts on the New 8/0/63 Shadow PvE spec?
    Basically you are swapping 5 points from Disc (Imp Fort and Meditation) for Spirit Tap and Imp Spirit Tap... I really don't see how this is beneficial. The DPS component of Spirit Tap is so low as to basically be 0 and i'd much prefer 50% regen while casting that is guaranteed over 33% that is contingent on crits.

    In addition, BiS gear is constantly losing spirit, I think I had about 800 spirit maybe even 900 after Naxx, I know have 600 and as I continue to gear I project to be in the 400s.

  4. #44

    Re: New 8/0/63 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Because 4% stam coming out to what, 500 health, is gamebreaking amirite?
    TBH 500 health is a big deal... not for the normal versions of new content but if you wan't to do the heroic 'hard modes' you need as much survivability as you can get without nerfing your dps ability.

    The heroic or hard mode encounters are highly tuned and 1% increases are make or break and in this case its 4%.

  5. #45

    Re: New 8/0/63 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    Basically you are swapping 5 points from Disc (Imp Fort and Meditation) for Spirit Tap and Imp Spirit Tap... I really don't see how this is beneficial. The DPS component of Spirit Tap is so low as to basically be 0 and i'd much prefer 50% regen while casting that is guaranteed over 33% that is contingent on crits.

    In addition, BiS gear is constantly losing spirit, I think I had about 800 spirit maybe even 900 after Naxx, I know have 600 and as I continue to gear I project to be in the 400s.
    Ah Worshaka, one of the people I had actually been hoping to get into this thread. Although the spirit is going down, the crit is hovering roughly the same, sometimes with a slight bias of going up just a smidge. So you're losing the regen out of both Meditation and Spirit Tap, and while I do see your point on losing out on meditation to RNG a bit.

    Keeping it up shouldn't be too hard, all things considered. I mean, look at Glyph of Shadow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka
    TBH 500 health is a big deal... not for the normal versions of new content but if you wan't to do the heroic 'hard modes' you need as much survivability as you can get without nerfing your dps ability.

    The heroic or hard mode encounters are highly tuned and 1% increases are make or break and in this case its 4%.
    Truly spoken. I 3 shotted Beasts tonight, much lulz were had. Then spent a good couple hours banging my head against Jaraxxus for reasons like this (to be fair, we had a LOT of melee). But look at it like a Health Stone too, and if they have the points in improved Health Stone is it going to save the raid? It probably won't make a difference.

    And considering the risk of not having Improved Fort in a 10 man, kinda why I dropped Shadow Affin for IPWF again, and picked up IF again, going with 11/60 instead of 8/63.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  6. #46

    Re: New 8/0/63 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Because 4% stam coming out to what, 500 health, is gamebreaking amirite? Here, let me pull out the retarded VE argument: "It shouldn't matter or be worth anything unless you're healers are made of fail". The fights that 4% stam makes a real difference aren't all that big. But it's there. Just like nights you get a big warlock stone and nights you get a tiny one. Oh well.
    Whatever helps you keep stroking yourself at night.
    Shows exactly what you know about pve. And FYI, yes, it actually makes the difference.

    Pheonixis - I tread morons like they deserve, if you don't like it then grow some balls. And what's this, "remove yourself from the world", can it be any weaker? Go die in fire. DID U SEE WUT I DID THAR?????


    On topic: I said why the spec is so bad, you'll be oom - pick up a calculator and calculate mana regen numbers, it is THAT easy. And take a look at spirit at gear found in coliseum / ulduar. It's not an amount sufficient to justify dropping of Meditation. But in the end, a great SMITER thinks he's / she's discovered hot water so enjoy, it'll fail like your allmighty smite "project" in incredible naxx 10 gear. Scrubs will be scrubs, but I guess you need this to retain that feeling of "I'm so special", which you are. But in the wrong direction.

  7. #47

    Re: New 11/0/60 Shadow PvE Spec?

    I don't necessarily think it could work. Perhaps in Coliseum, with it's lack of multi-dotting (from what I've understood, I've not been there), it could be useful but I tried a very similar build back when I raided in 3.1. It just doesn't return enough mana, especially on long fights like Yogg-Saron or gimmicky fights like Hodir (where I found myself OOM in about one minute and thirty seconds without using my Shadowfiend.

    I don't know if this is a problem in Coliseum, but I can see it being a slight problem in Icecrown Citadel, since it's going to be more 'extreme' like Ulduar.

  8. #48

    Re: New 8/0/63 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by syanid
    Shows exactly what you know about pve. And FYI, yes, it actually makes the difference.
    It makes less of a difference than you'd think, assuming you know how to not stand in fire. But considering your inability to comprehend full posts, I can see where you might be a little slow moving when fire starts stacking on you, whether it's green or red. Or maybe you're the guy who thinks "Okay I run because it's fire" on Incinerate Flesh. I dunno.


    On topic: I said why the spec is so bad, you'll be oom - pick up a calculator and calculate mana regen numbers, it is THAT easy. And take a look at spirit at gear found in coliseum / ulduar. It's not an amount sufficient to justify dropping of Meditation.
    You're not dropping Meditation. You're exchanging it, because the average Shadow Priest at that level already was running with 0/5 Spirit Tap, with points in Imp VE and Shadow Affinity. The people that tried to keep Spirit Tap on my server usually get laughed at because they are terrible and never picked up Veiled Shadows. : So if you keep Meditation, and get IST, this is a regen buff. Was it a needed buff? Not really. Is it worth exchanging on a flat value, sacrificing a bit of regen for some more spellpower? Sure, now that Twisted Faith is 20 instead of 10%. And it's been posted, to keep the "same" regen, pick up the point in Meditation instead of Inner Focus.

    But in the end, a great SMITER thinks he's / she's discovered hot water so enjoy, it'll fail like your allmighty smite "project" in incredible naxx 10 gear.
    Naxx-10 DPS gear because I heal full time. And it was dropped because obviously GC doesn't give a crap about Smite. GG, it doesn't make a difference here, either way. Thanks for playing the "I have nothing better to say... you suck because of 3 months ago!" game.
    Scrubs will be scrubs, but I guess you need this to retain that feeling of "I'm so special", which you are. But in the wrong direction.
    Open discussion about possibly freeing up some talent points is the wrong direction? Get off your almighty throne, and realise it's just a crapper. Seriously.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  9. #49

    Re: New 8/0/63 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by syanid
    Shows exactly what you know about pve. And FYI, yes, it actually makes the difference.

    Pheonixis - I tread morons like they deserve, if you don't like it then grow some balls. And what's this, "remove yourself from the world", can it be any weaker? Go die in fire. DID U SEE WUT I DID THAR?????


    On topic: I said why the spec is so bad, you'll be oom - pick up a calculator and calculate mana regen numbers, it is THAT easy. And take a look at spirit at gear found in coliseum / ulduar. It's not an amount sufficient to justify dropping of Meditation. But in the end, a great SMITER thinks he's / she's discovered hot water so enjoy, it'll fail like your allmighty smite "project" in incredible naxx 10 gear. Scrubs will be scrubs, but I guess you need this to retain that feeling of "I'm so special", which you are. But in the wrong direction.
    Calm down. You can actually say your point and make the other person look like an idiot without actually calling them one. However, if you start with name-saying the only idiot here will be you. Good luck making it in the real world with that attitude (no, you cannot call your boss an idiot just because he disagrees with you and you think he's a moron who deserves to be treated like one).

    Bottom line: you will never win an argument like that. You will never get your point proven like that. All you will be is detested by everyone and banned from these forums.
    If I was a Blizz server technician, I'd hijack a server and use it to download porn 24/7. Guess why the instance servers always are full B]

  10. #50

    Re: New 11/0/60 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by MushroomBomb
    I don't necessarily think it could work. Perhaps in Coliseum, with it's lack of multi-dotting (from what I've understood, I've not been there), it could be useful but I tried a very similar build back when I raided in 3.1. It just doesn't return enough mana, especially on long fights like Yogg-Saron or gimmicky fights like Hodir (where I found myself OOM in about one minute and thirty seconds without using my Shadowfiend.

    I don't know if this is a problem in Coliseum, but I can see it being a slight problem in Icecrown Citadel, since it's going to be more 'extreme' like Ulduar.
    The problem was that it couldn't really be counted on for a decent uptime. The buff to IST (giving it a 50% on Mind Flay crits) realistically shouldn't be that hard to maintain at all. That's where this difference comes in.

    Edit: And with more Int, you have more regen from this, more crit, more replenishment, more shadowfiend, etc etc etc.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  11. #51

    Re: New 11/0/60 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    The problem was that it couldn't really be counted on for a decent uptime. The buff to IST (giving it a 50% on Mind Flay crits) realistically shouldn't be that hard to maintain at all. That's where this difference comes in.
    Don't forget the small buff Twisted Faith gives. If the average shadow priest had about 500 spirit raid buffed, they gain 50 spellpower from twisted faith before the patch, and 5-6 spellpower from IST. After the patch they will gain about 10 spellpower ^^
    If I was a Blizz server technician, I'd hijack a server and use it to download porn 24/7. Guess why the instance servers always are full B]

  12. #52

    Re: New 11/0/60 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pheonixis
    Don't forget the small buff Twisted Faith gives. If the average shadow priest had about 500 spirit raid buffed, they gain 50 spellpower from twisted faith before the patch, and 5-6 spellpower from IST. After the patch they will gain about 10 spellpower ^^
    Little more than that.

    500 Spirit = 50 Spellpower from Twisted Faith and 50 Spellpower from Glyph of Shadow = 100 SP. Improved Spirit Tap would make that 550 spirit, so 55 + 55 = 110.

    10 SP from 500 Spirit. Go stat go!

    Now it's 500 spirit = 100 SP from TF, and 50 from GoS = 150 SP. Improved Spirit tap makes that 550 again, so 110 + 55 = 165, an increase of 15 SP instead of 10! : But it's 15 SP that's got a 100% uptime now, and should always be active, complete with regen.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
    Now TESTING: ArcheAge (Alpha)
    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
    Twitter: @KelestiMMO come say hi!
    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  13. #53

    Re: New 11/0/60 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Little more than that.

    500 Spirit = 50 Spellpower from Twisted Faith and 50 Spellpower from Glyph of Shadow = 100 SP. Improved Spirit Tap would make that 550 spirit, so 55 + 55 = 110.

    10 SP from 500 Spirit. Go stat go!

    Now it's 500 spirit = 100 SP from TF, and 50 from GoS = 150 SP. Improved Spirit tap makes that 550 again, so 110 + 55 = 165, an increase of 15 SP instead of 10! : But it's 15 SP that's got a 100% uptime now, and should always be active, complete with meditation.
    Well, still my maths were quite correct as TF increases the spellpoer gained from IST by about 5. Didn't really care about the buff to TF alone.
    If I was a Blizz server technician, I'd hijack a server and use it to download porn 24/7. Guess why the instance servers always are full B]

  14. #54

    Re: New 11/0/60 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Offtopic slightly but why would blizzard give us these 'minor' buffs in the upcoming patch, if they're buffing us they obviously know how low our dps is but doing so do they think these buffs would be enough?
    Priest - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Barthilas&n=Weenalol
    Druid - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Barthilas&n=Weenah
    DK - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Jubei%27Thos&n=Weenalol

  15. #55

    Re: New 11/0/60 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Any halfway decent shadow priest will know that

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...h,ywJOqR,10433

    is just about the best spec. There is no need for shadow affinity, it sucks. Imp VE sucks. IST gives a small SP boost, very small, but better then Imp VE and focused mind. You need improved shadowform because there are many AoE effects that are unavoidable that will do knockback in raiding.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H3-N9zoI5c Amazing video of 60+ devilsaurs raiding Undercity!


    My God, what a horrible creation. People seeing what they want? Thank God they tried to shy away from that. I know it pisses me off when I'm in an heroic raid, yet in the back of my head all I can think is 'some casual player is playing a heroic dungeon and not wiping.' -Vodkarn

  16. #56

    Re: New 8/0/63 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    It makes less of a difference than you'd think, assuming you know how to not stand in fire. But considering your inability to comprehend full posts, I can see where you might be a little slow moving when fire starts stacking on you, whether it's green or red. Or maybe you're the guy who thinks "Okay I run because it's fire" on Incinerate Flesh. I dunno.
    You do realize how funny your attempt at insulting me are? I mean seriously, let's stop for a moment there - I won't call you a scrub anymore or insult you. I'll be the one to play ball first. And no, I don't stand in the fire, I actually lead raids in somewhat good guild.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    You're not dropping Meditation. You're exchanging it, because the average Shadow Priest at that level already was running with 0/5 Spirit Tap, with points in Imp VE and Shadow Affinity. The people that tried to keep Spirit Tap on my server usually get laughed at because they are terrible and never picked up Veiled Shadows. : So if you keep Meditation, and get IST, this is a regen buff. Was it a needed buff? Not really. Is it worth exchanging on a flat value, sacrificing a bit of regen for some more spellpower? Sure, now that Twisted Faith is 20 instead of 10%. And it's been posted, to keep the "same" regen, pick up the point in Meditation instead of Inner Focus.
    Let's translate this into numbers, I'll take up Imp. Spirit tap and calculate how much spellpower I get for those 5 points, completely unbuffed (no spi, kings, mark).

    I got 586 spirit, my gear is Ilvl 226 - 245, meaning classic Ulduar 25 / Coliseum gear that anyone can get, which is what 95% people here have.
    IST will give me 586 * 1.1 = 644 spirit. 644 - 586 = 58 spirit. 58 * 0.3 = 17,4 spellpower.
    I'll be generous and increase this number for 50%, since I am lazy to calculate kings, mark and spi buff values.
    586 * 1.5 = 879.
    879 * 1.1 = 966
    966 - 879 = 87.9
    87.9 * 0.3 = 26.37

    So, in ideal situation (glyph of shadow up, close to 1k spirit) you get 26 spellpower for 5 talent points.

    So, from DPS point of view which is what we're most interrested at = we get 26 spellpower.

    Completely unbuffed (no Inner Fire) I have 2419 spellpower and two trinkets (Illustration and Eye) that give 200 + 125 spellpower

    2419 + 200 + 125 + 125 (flask) + 174 (inner fire) + 280 (totem) = 3243

    So raid buffed, without tailoring proc accounted for I got 3243 spellpower.

    Can you justify drop in survivability for extra 26 spellpower? In percentages, that's 0.008 of my spell power.
    I'd have to trade something - survivability, mana regen, pushback for 0.008 power. I don't see it as justified. I also dislike to use Dispersion for mana regen, it silences me and throw in some lag / random situation - I'll lose my stacks of Illustration and Eye. Your spec would probably enforce using glyph of Dispersion to make up for the regen lost due to Meditation.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    In my guild we have 3 shadow priests, each runs with a different spec. I like Shadow Affinity for example, I don't have to fade due to aggro (encounters like hodir etc). I also like the dispel component on it, you can have nice VT crits at faction champions and at radom retardins in battlegrounds.
    Another one runs with IST due to bit larger spirit and some more damage.
    Third one has a weird spec, he dropped veiled shadows.
    We don't have mana regen issues, but every single one of us took Imp. Fortitude for that extra 500 hp that you said is worthless.
    Also, every and each one of us has Meditation and imp. VE - without Imp. VE I personally feel squishy and yes, that small portion of hp regen is really good.

    So to conclude - I don't see Imp. Spirit Tap worthwile at all. If we gained 50% bonus to our spirit from it I might consider it, but 10% on already low-spirit gear is crap.
    If there weren't the Spirit regen nerf, then I'd drop meditation for IST.


  17. #57

    Re: New 11/0/60 Shadow PvE Spec?

    It is a small hit on regen, but it's still 33% instead of 50%. 33% on a 10% spirit bonus, too, I should add. Small, but there.

    For survivability, about halfway through the thread, I did change this from 8/63 to 11/60 with preference lying in either that last point of Meditation (for full "50%" spirit regen, although you get more because of 10% spirit still) or Inner Focus (which mana depending, may work out better, or worse. Who knows?).

    Considering gimmick fights (like Hodir) are behind us, I thought it would be fair to drop Shadow Affinity. The threat we push out is nothing in comparison to the threat other casters do. While mages can Mirror Image, and Invis, and Warlocks can Soulshatter, Balance Druids are SoL. And other than lolShear, the only threat drop an Elemental Shaman has is lolcarnation (yes, that's what my TBC guild called it, but it was usually our Enhance using it. :P).

    Our threat isn't really a major issue at this point, when others are putting out more than us without the additional 25% off.

    Going with 11/60 with 1/3 Meditation, you realistically are trading (in combat):
    25% threat reduction for 10% spirit, which may not be all that drastic, but it is higher dps. More than we're running with now. And while the difference between 10000 and 10008 is very small, the long story short is 10008 is and always will be > 10000. And I've noticed that I've been fading a lot less lately than I used to.

    If you go with Inner Focus, it's a little uglier, with:
    25% threat reduction and 17% regen vs 10% spirit and a crappy free spell+25% crit on a 3 minute cooldown...

    If mana's in "a good place" then this may very well work out better. But it may very well not, this remains to be seen.
    But again, all things considered, I don't think that 33%regen+10%spirit will be all that difficult to keep up at all, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out in our raid gear to have ~100% uptime.
    ~Former Priest/Guild Wars 2 Moderator~
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    Now PLAYING: MonoRed Burn (MtG Standard)
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    ~When you speak, I hear silence. Every word a defiance~

  18. #58
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    Re: New 11/0/60 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Let's get the numbers out, then

    Meditation gives 50% of your mana regen while casting, and since you should never stop casting or you're not doing your job, it gives you 50% mana regen.

    If, after 3.2, you have a 100% Improved Spirit Tap uptime, your mana regen will be 33% of your spirit/int mana regen and your spirit is increased by an awesome 10%.

    Let's assume 600 spirit and 1200 int in a raid situation just for easy calculations.
    Your spirit/int regen is going to be 5 * 0.005575 * 0.6 * spirit * sqrt(int) resulting in 5 * 0.005575 * 0.6 * 600 * 34,641 = 347,62 MP5 out of the 5 second rule. Meditation alone restores 173,81 MP5 while casting.

    Improved Spirit Tap will improve your Spirit by 10% so you get 5 * 0.005575 * 0.6 * 660 * 34,641 = 382,38 MP5 out of the 5 second rule. IST will give 33% regen so 127,46 MP5 while casting.

    Now pre-patch with the same assumptions. Right now your Improved Spirit Tap uptime should be at least 33% raidbuffed with decent gear. I'm going to assume you specced into IST and Meditation.

    1/3rd of the time your spirit will be increased by 10% so this results in an avarage of 3.33% increase in spirit = 5 * 0.005575 * 0.6 * 620 * 34,641 = 359,21 MP5.

    Improved Spirit Tap restores at a 33% rate, Meditation restores at a 50% rate. If I'm not mistaken this stacks multiplicative so this results in a 66,5% while IST is up and 50% when IST is not up, since IST is up 33% of the time in our example this results in an avarage of 55,5% regen. You don't have to be awesome at maths to calculate that. That results in an avarage regen of 199,36155 MP5 while casting.

    By speccing out of meditation after the patch and having Improved Spirit Tap, you lose 71,9 MP5 in this example. Decide for yourself if it's worth it, I can't judge that properly because I don't play Shadow Priest.

    Added after writing this: I just saw Kelesti pointed out more or less the same as I did, I just happen to have more numbers

  19. #59

    Re: New 11/0/60 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti
    Improved Fortitude may be brought in a 10 man by a Discipline Priest, or a Holy Priest in your 25 man. Going without it in 10's is iffy, hence dropping Shadow Affinity to pick it up and Inner Focus or one more point of Meditation.
    I'd like to make a few comments on the "To take or not to take imp. Fortitude" discussion: Firstly 500 extra health is worth nothing, UNTILL you find yourself with less than 500 heath on your bar, in which case it is priceless in my opinion. Now are you likely to get damage that high? Yes. Things happen and those 500 extra health might save you ass.

    Secondly, raiding is all about working together as a group, so imo, your spec should do two things. One, making yourself as good as possible, and two helping the raid in the best way possible. This is the real reason why I take Imp Fort. If I as a shadowpriest buff whoever is ressed after a combat ress, then that is (unglyphed) 1-3k mana saved for the holy or disc priest, and 1-3 gcd that can be used on healing. I have plenty of ways to get mana back, the holypriest has less. And my dots are still ticking so I still do ~50% of my normal damage.

    And to quote Muqq from Ensidia on why to bring reagents to raids: "You cannot expect the healing priests to do your job for you."



    Quote Originally Posted by syanid
    I got 586 spirit, my gear is Ilvl 226 - 245, meaning classic Ulduar 25 / Coliseum gear that anyone can get, which is what 95% people here have.
    IST will give me 586 * 1.1 = 644 spirit. 644 - 586 = 58 spirit. 58 * 0.3 = 17,4 spellpower.
    I'll be generous and increase this number for 50%, since I am lazy to calculate kings, mark and spi buff values.
    586 * 1.5 = 879.
    879 * 1.1 = 966
    966 - 879 = 87.9
    87.9 * 0.3 = 26.37

    So, in ideal situation (glyph of shadow up, close to 1k spirit) you get 26 spellpower for 5 talent points.

    So, from DPS point of view which is what we're most interrested at = we get 26 spellpower.

    (...)

    So to conclude - I don't see Imp. Spirit Tap worthwile at all. If we gained 50% bonus to our spirit from it I might consider it, but 10% on already low-spirit gear is crap.
    If there weren't the Spirit regen nerf, then I'd drop meditation for IST.
    I believe syanid's calculations give an accurate estimate over the amount of SP you can expect to get from Imp Spirit tap, personally I found the differance to be 21.77sp in a spreadsheet (assuming 500 unbuffed spirit). (I'll post the calculations if you want but basically its just the same syanid did in his post)

    So is it worth 5 points? I'd say no, I would actually put those extra points in Mental Agility before I put them in Imp ST. though a better shield isn't anythig to laugh at either.

    And I'd choose improved VE, because as I mentioned earlier: You want to buff the raid as much as you can, improved will help relieve your healers on healing intensive fights, and you do encounter healing intensive fights, just look at Anub'Arak or Twins in totc, not to mention IC HM and Mimi HM. Hell, I'd take it for just the solo heal, and then it's a group heal in addition. Everything helps.


  20. #60

    Re: New 11/0/60 Shadow PvE Spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by recadra
    Improved Spirit Tap restores at a 33% rate, Meditation restores at a 50% rate. If I'm not mistaken this stacks multiplicative so this results in a 66,5%
    All mana regen talents and spells(mage's Mage Armor or DMC:BD) stacks additively not multiplicative. So the results in a 83% increase in mana regeneration. This is why as long you do not have to AoE for more than 8 sec, you can effectively get the same regen of 3/3 points into Meditation(and 0/2 in IST) with 11/0/60 spec with 1/3 Meditation, assuming the uptime of IST is 100% in 3.2.2.

    Now I see math about dps value of IST but it doesn't get compared to anything.
    Compare 2/3 Meditation to 2/2 IST. Both talents have the same regen(actually a slight advantage to IST because of the +10% to spi) in a single target fight/multi-dot fight(assuming you MF between targets to refresh SW:P) with IST also buffing dps slightly. In a fight where we need Mind Sear, Meditation becomes the better talent because IST is not procing, thus no mana regen.

    So with a 13/0/58 spec that doesn't have IST compared to a 11/0/60 spec with 1/3 meditation and 2/2 IST, you actually have a higher mana regen and slightly more dps on a single target boss. On a multi-dot fight, as long as you can MF, you should be able to keep up IST. The only fight where full points into Meditation benefits more than 2/2 IST is when you have to mind sear more than focus on a target.

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