Enh PVE: How much of an impact does a slow weapon have?

[Gray_Matter]

I have a choice between 2 offhand weapons:

Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker which I presently have equipped:

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44310

and Ironforge Smasher:

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45075

On the face of it, the Ironforge Smasher should be better because of the slower speed but what if the stats were vastly superior?

[Executia]

ironforge smasher is like a billion times better.
Never ever use a fast offhand over a slow one , even the stats are three times better.

[Gray_Matter]

ironforge smasher is like a billion times better.
Never ever use a fast offhand over a slow one , even the stats are three times better.

Cool, thanks for the info. Didn't want to waste the seals.

[Deleted]

Enhance should never ever ever use a fast weapon in any hand. The dagger is REALLY bad for us. Have a look at Rawr (see my signature) and check out the weapon speed graph. For myself changing a 2.5 speed weapon to a 1.5 speed weapon would result in a 500dps loss.

[Gray_Matter]

Enhance should never ever ever use a fast weapon in any hand. The dagger is REALLY bad for us. Have a look at Rawr (see my signature) and check out the weapon speed graph. For myself changing a 2.5 speed weapon to a 1.5 speed weapon would result in a 500dps loss.

Busy downloading it right now

I had no idea that the effect could be that much.

[General Vezax]

Your specials are instant and based on weapon damage. SS and LL would hit for less with a fast offhand.

[FrOsTSh0cK]

It always saddens me when i see shamans using 2 fast weapons, Just the other day i saw 2 Shamans at the dummies. Both running fast / fast =(

[Heretushi]

A fast iLevel 200 weapon should still be better than a iLevel 174 quest weapon right?

If the shamans are running full 200+ and still using daggers, they deserve to suck. But a lil shaman that just broke 80 and is using a dagger, I can forgive.

[Jilua]

I might be wrong but here goes.

Your weaponspeed is the mulitplyer of which your specials hit with.

If you make a stormstrike with a 1.6speed weapon, you hit for 2attakcs*weaponspeed*weapon dmg.

like 2*1.6*176.8 = 565,75

If you then replace it with a lower dps wepon, but slower(ie 2.6), you get 2*2.6*145.7 = 757,46

You dont do SS all the time, but enough to never go fast.

[masteen]

for me every 0.1 weapon speed is worth about 14 weapon dps

that means that a 1.5 speeds needs to have about 140 more dps on it then a 2.5 speed to be better.

thus a green 2.5 140 dps weapon will be better then a 1.5 220 dps weapon

ofcourse this is assuming both would have same stats but still, just use a slow weapon

[Deleted]

Good old Ironforge Smasher from the toruny eh ;D

[Embermoon]

A fast iLevel 200 weapon should still be better than a iLevel 174 quest weapon right?

Nope.

In terms of the dps of the weapon itself, yes. However, the dps from the weapon is trivial, compared to the dps we get from our abilities that rely on weapon speed; i.e. Stormstrike, Windfury, Flametongue, Lava Lash. You want those abilities to do as much damage as possible. Every one of them benefit the most, from slow weapons. Why? Because the way Blizz normalizes the dps on weapons, they make the slower weapons hit for larger amounts of damage. So, the fact that you're swinging slower than grandma drives makes absolutely zero difference. As soon as your shaman special abilities are off cooldown, you pop for big hits. That's what makes the difference.

If you want to get more detailed information than you could ever want on enhance weapon speed, you really should read the Enhance Theorycrafting Thread on Elitist Jerks' website: www.elitistjerks.com
It's under the forums, and then the Theorycrafting Think Tank.

[alpha5099]

There's also the PPM mechanics of Maelstrom Weapon to consider. If we were just auto-attacking, we'd get the same number of MW procs in a minute regardless of weapon speed. When you use a slow weapon, each individual hit has a higher chance to generate a MW charge, and because we're using so many instant strikes, you'll get more MW charges then you would using fast weapons.

(If any of what I've said is incorrect, I apologize, and please correct me.)

[Baabinator]

There's also the PPM mechanics of Maelstrom Weapon to consider. If we were just auto-attacking, we'd get the same number of MW procs in a minute regardless of weapon speed. When you use a slow weapon, each individual hit has a higher chance to generate a MW charge, and because we're using so many instant strikes, you'll get more MW charges then you would using fast weapons.

(If any of what I've said is incorrect, I apologize, and please correct me.)

This is correct. Also keep in mind that slower weapons will have higher FT / WF hits. (Only when applied through an extra (instant) attack)

[Gray_Matter]

Enhance should never ever ever use a fast weapon in any hand. The dagger is REALLY bad for us. Have a look at Rawr (see my signature) and check out the weapon speed graph. For myself changing a 2.5 speed weapon to a 1.5 speed weapon would result in a 500dps loss.

For me it works out to be about 50DPS more for the IF Smasher. I found a lot more value with Rawr as it saved me getting the wrong trinket in WG.

Another quick question, the FAQ says that "AP, Haste, Crit, Agi, Armour Penetration" are better (I am assuming the order is important but your sig says that "Crit/AP/Agi/Haste" which has a different order. Is AP the best stat after the specials or Crit?

[Deleted]

The order is determined by your current gear level AP tends to be best overall, unless you are low on crit thus lower Flurry and lower Elemental Devestation uptimes in which case crit but typically it varies as you change gear. In order to get the right answer you need to run the sim for your own gear.

[Spaceinvader]

More importantly, Levva's signature also says:

Use Rawr or EnhSim the Enhancement Shaman DPS simulator to work out what stats are best for your personal gear & talent setup.

And that is the definitive answer to your question. For most shamans, after you hit your spell hit and expertise caps, Attack Power or Haste are the two viable options.

[Heretushi]

Sorry to revive a dead thread, but this is on topic.

So to know exactly what stat has what importance, we should "sim" our gear. Here's the way I did it : loaded Rawr, latest version, queried my char from Armory. Got into the tool tab, export to Enhsim. Got into Enhsim, latest version, hit the button to load from clipboard. Then, clicked "calculate EP".

Even though both Rawr and Enhsim told me explicitely that I was over cap for Hit, the EP value of hit was the highest.

To test things out, I got back to Rawr, switched pretty much every non-expertise gem to +hit gems. I was WAY over cap. Like hundreds of rating over. Then I resimed the new stats. I saw that the hit% in Enhsim changed.

After recalculating the EP, hit was STILL on top. What's up with that? Is that a bug or something I clearly don't understand?!

[Baabinator]

Sorry to revive a dead thread, but this is on topic.

So to know exactly what stat has what importance, we should "sim" our gear. Here's the way I did it : loaded Rawr, latest version, queried my char from Armory. Got into the tool tab, export to Enhsim. Got into Enhsim, latest version, hit the button to load from clipboard. Then, clicked "calculate EP".

Even though both Rawr and Enhsim told me explicitely that I was over cap for Hit, the EP value of hit was the highest.

To test things out, I got back to Rawr, switched pretty much every non-expertise gem to +hit gems. I was WAY over cap. Like hundreds of rating over. Then I resimed the new stats. I saw that the hit% in Enhsim changed.

After recalculating the EP, hit was STILL on top. What's up with that? Is that a bug or something I clearly don't understand?!

Did you also include the 3% spellhit from faerie fire, and perhaps a 1% from draenei racial into the calculation

If you didn't, it means you're 4% under the spellhit cap which means hit would still value ALOT higher then any other stat.

If you DID include imp FF, and 1% draenei. I Don't know

[Deleted]

Well if you cba to use rawr etc just go exp and hit cap and then go full AP. It´s the best stat most of the time.