Starfire>Wrath?

[Composure]

I'm about to start raiding(bit late to start), and I'm wondering about fights like Hodir and Vezax where there is +100% haste patches, obviously they are worth using, but..
Considering that +100% haste of a 1 second cast time would still be affected by the global cooldown, is wrath a lower priority than starfire? Or is the global cooldown affected by the haste aura aswell?

[Degrador]

During things like Bloodlust or Hodir's buffs I'd cast just Starfire, and only use Wrath to proc eclipse if lunar eclipse is off CD.

[Deleted]

It really depends on my mood. I still have my T82P bonus (and probably will for a while), so on Hodir, if you have solar eclipse up, its very lucrative to spam wraths - with +45% wrath damage, it crits for insane amounts of damage, even if it clips because of the haste. It really depends on my mood, and most of the time i fall into spamming starfire until i can proc lunar eclipse.

Your signature is 5 times as big as the actual post you made. Thats rather... annoying, mate :P

[Deleo]

During things like Bloodlust or Hodir's buffs I'd cast just Starfire, and only use Wrath to proc eclipse if lunar eclipse is off CD.

[Composure]

Your signature is 5 times as big as the actual post you made. Thats rather... annoying, mate :P

It's my first sig. And yours is pretty big too!

[Deleted]

Mine is pretty well around standard size of signatures as they go. Long, rather than tall aswell.

Silly discussion, but now your signature is just offensive

[FourofaKind]

Cycle through your eclipses, "its the only way to be sure..."

As far as which is higher Priority, as Q said, wrath with 2pc 8 is broken on fights like Hodir (or since you said you were just starting to raid, Thaddius, even without 2pc8)

While the haste/GCD cap limits you to at best 1 wrath per 1 second, odds are you wont be getting star fire down to that cast level (even with BL+Base+Circles remember, haste does not stack sum it stacks multiplicity 20% + 20% =/= 40% it = 36% ) so what it comes down to is...

If Starfire Crits for 18k every 1.7 seconds(always) and wrath crits for 12k every second(during eclipse) you should be wanting to make sure they eclipse is constantly running as Starfire(in this scenario) = 6.6k dps (outside Eclipse) 9.26kdps (inside eclipse) vs wrath 5188 dps (outside eclipse) 7523dps (inside eclipse) on most static fights (assuming a 25% base chance to crit)

Starfire is seemingly "better" for most fights, however (as it is important enought to be repeated) if you ever get something thats like "lol smiley face" (Damage or Crit buff) wrath is the 'better' choice (See: Loatheb, Thaddius, Hodir, Verax, Twins, Howly, etc)

[Deleted]

Starfire is seemingly "better" for most fights, however (as it is important enought to be repeated) if you ever get something thats like "lol smiley face" (Damage or Crit buff) wrath is the 'better' choice (See: Loatheb, Thaddius, Hodir, Verax, Twins, Howly, etc)

Not quite. A spellpower buff (generally it's actually a % of damage done buff) affects all rotations equally and doesn't change the situation from when there's no buff. This is in particular for Twin Valkyrs, Icehowl (though the short timing might make wrath better to fit in a last spell before the stun wears off), and Thaddius.

Encounters that buff your crit do indeed benefit solar more : when you are already at 90% crit on SF during Eclipse on Loatheb, the Eclipse buff basically amounts to 10% crit on SF or 30-45% damage on wrath. The choice is clear.

Encounters that buff your haste are generally better for SF since wrath is already at the GCD cap as is. That being said, the choice between spamming SF or still trying to cast some wraths to proc lunar is a very valid one, and the result depends a lot on luck (ie wether you'll be able to benefit from the full eclipse on Vezax or Hodir or not).

Concerning Hodir, even without the haste buff, a lunar Eclipse is still preferable since the Cloud buff only boosts your crit damage. You want to use the spell with the best crit rate in order to benefit most from it.

[FourofaKind]

(though the short timing might make wrath better to fit in a last spell before the stun wears off)

that. (was what I meant by spellpower = good for wrath, I dont really know of a fight were you will be getting more then 10 seconds of "stand and cast" spell power buff)

[Deleted]

Yes but when you have the storm cloud on you, you will do amazingly high crits. Wrath + 45% damage from T8 + Singed buff + 135% crit damage amounts to a lot of damage. Wrath and starfire will have the same crit chance outside of Lunar Eclipse. If i were to estimate my crit chance in raids (i rarely remember), its probably somewhere along the lines of 40-45% with everything up:

~29% in moonkin form (from memory)
4% from nature's majesty
3% from improved faerie fire
~3,8% crit from Idol of Lunar Fury (assuming it will drop off once in a while - we do try and refresh it when moving on Hodir and Vezax as often as possible).
5% from Scorch and such
= 44,8% chance to crit with wrath and starfire outside of lunar eclipse.

Thats pretty damn high.

I can't remember, off the top of my head, what my wraths and eclipses do with no special buffs on them, so i cant continue my theoretical calculations. But i really think its close to favoring wrath *if* you have the storm power buff on.

[FourofaKind]

= 44,8% chance to crit with wrath and starfire outside of lunar eclipse.

Just for good measure

Same damage same average time new crit

Starfire DPS = 8471dps (outside eclipse) 10059k dps (inside eclipse)
Wrath DPS = 6640dps (outside eclipse) 9628kdps (inside eclipse)

Brings the difference to 400 dps(instead of just under 2k) with no special buffs, so any buff other then (additional)haste favors Wrath>Starfire. Hope this helps OP!

(BTW! IF YOU ARE FRESH 80 <NO 2PC T8> STARFIRE IS MUCH BETTER! However you should try to grab that 2 pc bonus as soon as possible)

[Deleted]

But would a freshly dinged 80 do Hodir and Vezax? Realisticly? :P

[Composure]

Not so much freshly dinged, just that I haven't done any serious raiding on this toon.
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...em&n=Composure

[FourofaKind]

But would a freshly dinged 80 do Hodir and Vezax? Realisticly? :P

:-[ Sadly yes, we took a freshly dinged 80 mage into uld 10 a few weeks ago (he dinged on Monday, raid was thursday) and he did allright on Hodir etc...

Your gear reminds me a bit of my own, lots of resto holes + ilol 200 trinkets (same actually) but yeah, based on what you have... Keep up that red moon and wrath-wrath-wrath!

[qft]

i did 15k on hodir recently, was doing 10k wearing full resto gear + some random hit items. gear doesnt really matter on hodir.

[Deleted]

Just for good measure

Same damage same average time new crit

Starfire DPS = 8471dps (outside eclipse) 10059k dps (inside eclipse)
Wrath DPS = 6640dps (outside eclipse) 9628kdps (inside eclipse)

Brings the difference to 400 dps(instead of just under 2k) with no special buffs, so any buff other then (additional)haste favors Wrath>Starfire. Hope this helps OP!

(BTW! IF YOU ARE FRESH 80 <NO 2PC T8> STARFIRE IS MUCH BETTER! However you should try to grab that 2 pc bonus as soon as possible)

Well, i think we end up saying the same thing but differently. There are 2 things to take into account:
- the solar eclipse bonus is better than the lunar one, because the increase in damage you get from 1% of crit is lower the more crit you already have, whereas the benefits to spellpower (or straight damage) just continue to help as much the more you get. So of course, the dps difference between SF and wrath is going to become smaller when you add Eclipse in the mix.
- however when looking at a buff that only increases your crit damage, the main factor will be the crit chance of the spell you'll be using. Supposing i do x dps with wrath (eclipse + non eclipse) and the same x with SF, and that i have a 45% crit chance on wrath overall and 90% on SF. I'm going to get x*0.55 + x*0.45*230 on wrath and x*0.1 + x*0.9*230 on SF. It's quite obvious who wins out here in terms of pure dps.

In Hodir's specific case, you have the problem of flash freeze and avoiding stalagtites which favors wrath, but also the haste buff which favors SF. If stars do align, SF Eclipse is going to crush any other dps you could do into the ground (with a chain of 60k SF crits every 1s).
More realistically, it really depends on wether you/your guild do manage to spread out buffs without you having to move too much and wether you'll be able to set up an eclipse to really benefit from all those buffs or not.

[Deleted]

The question wasn't about starfire during a lunar eclipse - that one is a no brainer. Its about whether or not solar eclipse + T82P bonus + singed + storm power buff warrants casting wrath during solar over continuing casting starfire, dispite the fact that the haste buff from the light pillars is largely wasted.

[FourofaKind]

I did include Starfire having its 90% crit chance (for eclipse DPS)

10 casts of each with and average cast time of 1.7 sec for Starfire 1.0 sec for Wrath.

Also

+50% crit and +50% damage math matically = the same # of damage

5000 damage x 5 casts base 0% crit chance

+20% crit chance
30000
+20% damage
30000

40% crit chance
35000
40% damage
35000

60% crit chance
40000
60% Damage
40000

80% crit chance
45000
80% damage
45000

100% Crit chance
50000
100% Damage
50000

If %>100, then Crit(%>100)<Damage(%>100)

its not so much that the damage you get from crit is automatically < the damage you get from %damage done moreso Crit does have a very real cap of 100% (Maybe in cataclysm they will change this by adding potential for "triple crits" I am pretty surprised that Bliz did not include Vorpal weapons with the amount of influence D&D has over this game.