Shadow Priest Buff 3.2.2

[nilmer]

Since it is hard to find, here is the link for the top 20 dps by class for all encounters
(just click on the classes to change class)

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/c.../pri/8/0/3/320

[Rurikar]

I read this thread and you guys are making a bigger deal then this is.

Bottoming out? They are at the bottom of only TWO HARD MODES.

On Anub they are above Warlocks, Hunters and Shaman. They are beating TWO PURE DPS CLASSES.
On Faction Champions they are above Warriors and Shamans.
On Beats they are above Paladins and Shamans.

All three of those fights they are only ahead or behind most classes by less then 300 dps.


So on Twins and Lord Jaraxx, you have priests not doing well but not every fight can be designed so every class has major advantages.



You guys are seriously making a big deal out of this, for progression they are not "Bottoming" out unless you are talking about one or two specifics fights and if thats the case well then I'm with GC on this saying you guys are looking way to much into the numbers. Big boy guilds will always drop the lowest DPS classes in favor for higher ones because thats why they are the big boy guilds, everybody else needs to stop worrying. This is not Shadow Priests being way behind on every single fight. They aren't up at the top but they aren't so far at the bottom that you guys need to make this such a big deal. The way they approached this is smart, a small buff that could grant maybe 100-200 DPS here or there. They don't need to step in and just slap on an extra 1000 dps.



And this crying about scaling? Jesus Christ so many classes are stuck in this position and they aren't going to make drastic changes when the expansion is already completely overhauling all the stats. Calm down.

[adezero]

measuring your dps on faction champs is like measuring your dps in arena. it's stupid.

there's too much going on in that fight that it isn't a tank and spank. you could get focused and have to run around a lot. you should be offensively dispelling the burn target (if you're not, you're a waste of a shadow priest). you should be running to the mobs to blow your aoe fear on cooldown.

you're also probably rating the death knights low dps because they take high damage targets (warrior, ret pally, death knight) and grip and chains them the whole fight.

[sagacity]

So either you are insinuating that the extensive data collection and analysis by blizzard is incorrect or that individuals who usually do far less reliable data analysis know more than blizzard. Did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps Blizzard may know more than the average wow player on occasion?

It's not that Blizzard doesn't know the problem... it's that they don't agree with the problem. It's not so much a factual thing as it is an opinion. Blizzard does read and take into account what's said on the forums, they just don't always agree with the player base. Which is sad in this case, because the player base seems to be more correct, that does happen sometimes.

What I think happened is that Blizzard does think Priests are fine... it's just the other classes that are out of whack and buffed too much. Blizzard talked about how they screwed up itemization, both in TBC and WotLK, and people were approaching limits of having %100 crit in some situations, as an example. The sad part is that this offers a much more complicated solution than just buffing priests.

It essentially boils down to this... all of the scaling issues shadow priest see is because we don't have a spammable, face rolling nuke. This is why haste sucks after a certain point and we fall behind in later content. If you're a shadow priest expect to do shitty dps throughout WotLK. It won't be fixed until we get a nuke that's spammable, and that's not going to happen until Cata.

[Tihr]

Or unless Blizzard somehow make our DoTs scale with haste by ticking faster, or more often, etc.

[Worshaka]

So on Twins and Lord Jaraxx, you have priests not doing well but not every fight can be designed so every class has major advantages.

You guys are seriously making a big deal out of this, for progression they are not "Bottoming" out unless you are talking about one or two specifics fights and if thats the case well then I'm with GC on this saying you guys are looking way to much into the numbers. Big boy guilds will always drop the lowest DPS classes in favor for higher ones because thats why they are the big boy guilds, everybody else needs to stop worrying. This is not Shadow Priests being way behind on every single fight. They aren't up at the top but they aren't so far at the bottom that you guys need to make this such a big deal. The way they approached this is smart, a small buff that could grant maybe 100-200 DPS here or there. They don't need to step in and just slap on an extra 1000 dps.

There is a lot of truth in this, the WoW community define potential dps ability as single target tank n spank yet 99.9% of encounters aren't designed like this. There is a classic miscommunication in that Blizzard are balancing dps around a different set of guidelines to what the community is measuring it on.

In some respects our class is balanced far better than other classes because it's evident that other classes have received changes/talents/abilities that are blantantly OP, I can't recall a priest change/talent/ability that is OP... perhaps the coeffecient on VT is borderline broken.

I posted a WoL of me being consistently in the Top5 for H ToGC25 beasts. I concede we haven't actually killed them but we've had some annoying D/C issues and we only raid at most 2 nights per week. We have come very close a few times and i've actually been in the Top 3 for those particular attempts when we were on track in terms of DPS and just had 1 silly mistake wipe us (ie. let Icehowl charge someone /sigh).

I still think that the wow community thinks the dps meters measures skill and unless people can top meters to stroke their egos they aren't happy with the class they're playing. The world first kills for the latest content all included spriests, I hardly see how our dps is so bad that we're a liability to the raid. If we were why would these top line guilds take spriests?

[Azyoulike]

Bottoming out? They are at the bottom of only TWO HARD MODES.

On Anub they are above Warlocks, Hunters and Shaman. They are beating TWO PURE DPS CLASSES.

Ok first we need to be very careful with the Anub Hc data, because so few guilds are clearing it. Check the warlock dps for example and almost all the locks are affliction or demo, this is presumably because of the assistance that gives the raid in terms of Demonic Pact and faster application of the 5% crit debuff on adds. Those specs theorycraft out at about 1k dps less than destro though.

Hunters show huge variability on their top 20 - from 4k to 7.9k, potentially because they're often being assigned to Frost Sphere duty - and thus missing out on time AoEing. Given how poor shadow priest burst is we can safely assume that's not the case for the priests.

Druids show similar variability on their top 20 - from 5.6k to 9.2k, the best ferals are comfortably outdpsing the best shadow priests, but possibly there simply aren't enough data-points yet for this to make itself clear in the aggregate.

Shaman are last, fair and square. Not that surprising when you consider their relatively poor AoE. Of course shaman just received a fairly chunky buff, so that may change in a week or two when the data has time to hit.

Priests are mostly tightly bunched between 6k-7.7k - but there's one outlier at 9k. This guy, deztruckt is leading the class by a huge margin, no other class has such a big gap between first and second. It's only a single data point, but it's intriguing.

On Beats they are above Paladins and Shamans.

Check again - they're bottom on both normal and heroic beasts now, though not by much I'll grant.

So on Twins and Lord Jaraxx, you have priests not doing well but not every fight can be designed so every class has major advantages.

True, but when a class is bottom by a large margin on two fights, bottom by a small margin on one fight and in the bottom half on the remaining fights it's time to face the fact that you have a problem

And this crying about scaling? Jesus Christ so many classes are stuck in this position and they aren't going to make drastic changes when the expansion is already completely overhauling all the stats.

Really, name 2 other classes in the same position, since there are so many, note you said classes not specs. Every other class but paladins has at least 2 dps specs, and while sometimes one or two specs scale badly - all have at least one that scales reasonably. Given Retris' relatively poor scaling, paladins may be in a similar boat, but no other class is as screwed on scaling.

[Direshadow]

I'm in a mix of both ToC Badge Gear, ToC Dropped Gear, and High End Uldua 25 gear.

My spell power is over 3K and my crit is at about 25% unbuffed.

I can usually pull around 6K in my raiding group if I push myself.



Over the past few weeks, i've been trying to get into pugs to do the daily heroics, but more and more i'm finding people "don't want a shadow priest"

This fact scares me.

[Worshaka]

I'm in a mix of both ToC Badge Gear, ToC Dropped Gear, and High End Uldua 25 gear.

My spell power is over 3K and my crit is at about 25% unbuffed.

I can usually pull around 6K in my raiding group if I push myself.



Over the past few weeks, i've been trying to get into pugs to do the daily heroics, but more and more i'm finding people "don't want a shadow priest"

This fact scares me.

Because heroics are hard and you need to min max your 5man group to get it done... seriously, if people are boycotting classes or specs for heroics they are pretty much retarded. Generally speaking they won't take a spriest because the game is dominated by melee and they'll want buff synergy from something like a shaman so they can look at their 30sec recount parses and feel good about themselves.

[Sersick]

For the buff to be equal to "1-200 SP" you would need to have 1000-2000 spirit.

If you have that much spirit, you're doing something either horribly wrong, or horribly right.

20% of 1000 is 200, and it wouldn't strike me odd that spirit would be on gear he picks up. My mage has about 900 and I don't aim for spirit.

[fabian]

20% of 1000 is 200, and it wouldn't strike me odd that spirit would be on gear he picks up. My mage has about 900 and I don't aim for spirit.

you're forgetting we already have 10% from talent already. HE is right to say that for the buff to give 200 sp, you would need 2k spirit

[Sersick]

Mmm, good point.

[Devdan]

Be happy you got something though they think you are fine.

[fabian]

Be happy you got something though they think you are fine.

If they thought our dps was not lagging behind, we wouldn't even had got that buff. Getting the buff actually means they know we're starting to lag behind and they want to try and prevent/cushion the problem by the time ICC comes out.

[Dreamtail]

problem is still not fixed

[Azyoulike]

Something GC said recently caught my eye:

Sometimes we even agree something is a problem, but A) aren't sure how we want to fix it yet, B) think that an upcoming change will fix the problem, or C) are just focused on other problems at the moment. You can ask why we won't at least acknowledge a problem even if we have no immediate plans to fix it. But ask yourself if you would be one of those people who would post "Why won't you fix it if you know it's a problem?"

I think this is the situation spriests are in. They know there's an issue but they don't have an easy fix and they worry that if they acknowledge the problem they'll get mobbed with complaints.

Personally though I think this is rather dumb. If I tried telling my users that there was no bug when they could see a bug, just because I didn't have a fix ready - I'd get sacked.

[greysin]

Something GC said recently caught my eye:

I think this is the situation spriests are in. They know there's an issue but they don't have an easy fix and they worry that if they acknowledge the problem they'll get mobbed with complaints.

Personally though I think this is rather dumb. If I tried telling my users that there was no bug when they could see a bug, just because I didn't have a fix ready - I'd get sacked.

ghostcrawler has proven to priests that he's a complete idiot. he's proved to us he doesn't know the class (mind control to use the other guy's CDs in pvp? wtf?) and is usually the most vocal of all the blues about priests, but constantly says clueless or infuriating things that a competent priest easily calls BS on

priests are where they were over a year ago. when everything else is on the rise, then that static position just becomes a huge problem

[Azyoulike]

ghostcrawler has proven to priests that he's a complete idiot. he's proved to us he doesn't know the class (mind control to use the other guy's CDs in pvp? wtf?)

This is where we get in trouble, when we call GC an idiot. Afaik he never said that mind control could blow the opponents CDs, he said this about a suggested buff to MC to turn the target into a moveable pet

We might do something like that for pets in general. Mind Control however is a really powerful ability. Not only does it prevent the target from doing anything, it also lets you use their abilities against their allies. It's going to be hard for us to remove too many downsides from the effect.

Interpretation 1: GC is an idiot and thinks you can use opponent players abilities
Interpretation 2: GC is explaining why the suggested change would be OP in PvE

A lot of people in the community chose to interpret it the first way, but I tend to give GC the benefit of the doubt on that one because interpretation 2 is entirely valid - the suggested change would probably have been OP in PvE.

[greysin]

This is where we get in trouble, when we call GC an idiot. Afaik he never said that mind control could blow the opponents CDs, he said this about a suggested buff to MC to turn the target into a moveable pet

Interpretation 1: GC is an idiot and thinks you can use opponent players abilities
Interpretation 2: GC is explaining why the suggested change would be OP in PvE

A lot of people in the community chose to interpret it the first way, but I tend to give GC the benefit of the doubt on that one because interpretation 2 is entirely valid - the suggested change would probably have been OP in PvE.

that's also the revised version that he STILL apologized for and said he was talking about PVE. originally, he said "you can use mind control to blow the opponent's cooldowns"

but even then, it screams "i have no clue how MC works"

we can't use a player's "abilities" against their allies. auto attack isn't an ability, hell, level 5 deer can auto attack you. it's also a 3 second cast, has the highest chance of failure of ANY spell in the game, and has a very limited range

wtf is "very powerful" about a spell that CCs the caster and target, has the highest chance of failure, takes a long time to cast and does zero damage.

if there were cliffs to force people to jump off in arena, where blizz has said IS THE STANDARD FOR WoW PVP then maybe MC would be useful. right now, you're lucky if it's useful and then, it's only useful against baddies

you chose to "not anger the guy that you think is in charge of fixing priests" when in reality, he can't fix something he doesn't understand to start with. he's an idiot when it comes to priests and simply spews garbage whenever he speaks about them

[Azyoulike]

that's also the revised version that he STILL apologized for and said he was talking about PVE

but even then, it screams "i have no clue how MC works"

It's not the revised version - he didn't revise it. It's exactly what he said, and I can tell that because immediately after the original post you get people criticizing it quoting it word for word ( bottom of page 3 of the replies for example).

So it's not necessarily showing he has no clue about how MC works. If he's saying that he can't buff it to be useful in PvP without making it OP in PvE where you CAN use the target's abilities then he's showing no such thing.

Bear in mind the request was to change MC profoundly so that it was no longer channeled. That would have PvE ramifications and it would be OP if you still allowed MC to do what it currently does.

Mostly I think that people who consider this proof that GC is an idiot have only proved that they have poor reading comprehension.