Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1
    Bloodsail Admiral Sturmbringe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Patras, Achaea, Greece
    Posts
    1,101

    Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s RL POV

    The title means: Naxxramas 25: A pick-up group`s Raid Leader Point-of-View.

    I know that the Devs are sensitive about Naxxramas. When someone is sensitive about a particular piece of one`s work, then it means that one has devoted a lot of time and effort in it. You can also see that in Vanilla Stratholme. It is in my opinion, perhaps the best 5 man dungeon they ever made alongwith Dire Maul.

    When Naxxramas 40 was released, it was actually seen and experienced by only 2% of the playerbase at that time. Hence the decision to add it in in the Wrath of the Lich King.

    At this stage in the game`s evolution, Naxxramas 25 is no longer `guild progression content` for the vast majority of guilds. The `vast majority` could mean something like over 90%.

    Please let me define PUG here. There are two kinds of PUGS:

    1. A PUG consisting of riff-raff picked up by spamming the trade channel.

    2. A PUG consisting exclusively of members of established guilds. These PUGS are used to clear guild progression content, such as (presently) ToC 10 or Onyxia or Ulduar 10 Hard modes. While technically a PUG, this group has very little if anything at all in common with the PUG above.

    For the purposes of this thread, a PUG is considered to be the first variant. Members of the second variant would –presently- never do Naxx 25 anyway.

    I. Naxxramas 25 Difficulty Level:
    --------------------------------------------------

    -A guild consisting of average or new-ish players will find Naxxramas 25 fairly challenging.

    -A pro hardcore guild used to breeze through Naxxramas 25 back when it was relevant content. I was in such a guild with my Alliance alts. By 19:00 everyone whould be inside Naxxramas 25 with full consumables including haste pots. It would take us two hours and something to clear Naxx 25 with no wipes and usually no individual deaths either. Then we would go on and clear OS 3D up, and Malygos 25. If WG was up, we`d also clear that. We usually finished with all relevant content by 24:00 server time in just one day, on Wednesdays.

    -A PUG now, will only complete Arachnid Quarter with ease, it will have some difficulties in the Plague Quarter (2-3 wipes at Heigan`s Dance part), it will never even get past Instructor Razuvious mostly because the RL (i.e. yours truly) is unable to find even so much as TWO priests in the whole server wishing to do Naxx 25, and it will wipe endlessly at Thaddius.

    My own PUG, has been wiping yesterday at Thaddius for 3 hours, i.e. from 22:30 to 01:30.

    II. FORMING A NAXXRAMAS 25 PUG: RL`s STANDPOINT
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1. A RL`s primary headache when trying to form a Naxxramas 25 PUG is the lack of Priests server-wide. As you know guys, I need two priests in order to get two MC`s at Instructor Razuvious, at the very least. For PUGS, three Priests are optimal and the alternate strategy that involves Hunters is out of the question, mainly because of the lack of individual ability of the average PUGGER (i.e. low quality players).

    (For instance, I have had a lot of trouble in convincing PUG Hunters to use Aspect of the Pack and Aspect of the Wild, mainly because these abilities were not even on their bars and/or they had never used them before. Others refused to use Aspect of the Wild as that would reduce their 2.5k DPS).

    Now I understand that the issue with the lack of Priests has gained some publicity at the US DD forums recently which is just as well.

    I use the WoW Census add-on. I have used it on three different EU servers, namely Genjuros, Nordrassil and Darksorrow. These are the servers I played on for an extended perior of time. In every single one, Priests were the least popular/least played class. Priests are dead last in representation of active toons, dead last in number of toons played at level 80, and many guilds only have one Holy Priest and no Shadow Priests at all.

    My raid was supposed to start at 19:00, and I spent one hour and 15 minutes trying to find a second priest either Shadow or Holy or Disc or whatever spec. I waived all gear and achievement requirements, and advertised that Priests had prio irrespective of gear. Still, I could not get one.

    Now for a Naxx 25 PUG, when you don’t have two Priests, you can`t complete the instance. It is that simple. This because of the mechanics of the 25 man fight. There are no orbs, so that means that the MC`s have to come from two Priests by necessity.

    In Naxxramas 25 PUGS, the healers I usually have to work with are:

    -3 Holy Paladins
    -1 Resto Druid
    -1 Resto Shaman

    The reason I don’t include a Priest is because I usually can`t find one.

    III. NEGOTIATING NAXXRAMAS 25: ORDER OF COMPLETING QUARTERS
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Many Puggies join a Naxx 25 man just to get badges. The way they would like you to do Naxx 25 is this:

    1. Arachnid Quarter, 2. Plague Quarter

    If you do it that way, you will find yourself with fifteen (15) or so less raid members when you are standing in front of the Construct Quarter. The reason for that is that PUGGIES know that it gets tough in Construct and Military, and so in order to avoid multiple wipes (and repair costs thereof) they leave en-masse when the raid makes it to Construct Quarter.

    `O SORRI GAIZ G2G`

    Therefore, the experienced RL will do Naxx 25 in the following way:

    1. Construct, 2. Military, 3. Plague, 4. Arachnid

    Construct is the most unfriendly quarter to PUGGIES. It is also the quarter that a PUG will spend hours in (even an entire day`s worth of raid time) in order to complete it. I suspect that it was designed to be the most challenging quarter. This quarter is full of time waster features:

    a. The running slimes past Patchy:
    -----------------------------------------

    No matter what you do, 5-6 people will die there. Additional delays because of ressurections and so on.

    b. The pipe tunnel before the Doggie:
    ---------------------------------------------

    You take damage in it even after the doggie dies, so that means that you must stop before it, heal up to full, and then go through it. You must also take into account the fall damage you will take after you exit the pipe and jump below.

    c. The jump before Thaddius:
    ------------------------------------

    After you clear the two zombie mini-bosses (Scalagg and Feugen) you must make the jump to Thaddius` platform. I have seen PUGS wiping because many people failed at the jump and landed on the slime floor below.

    What it`s required there, is Hunters with the intelligence and presence of mind to use Aspect of the Pack to assist others to make the jump, but like said before, in PUGS you usually have to contend with Hunters who haven`t even bought the spell from the trainer.

    /rw One Hunter please switch on Aspect of the Pack



    /rw One Hunter please use Aspect of the Wild



    Raid: I LOOSE [sic] DPS

    /rw kk

    *sigh*

    See?

    IV. ENSURE THAT YOU HAVE TAKEN ALL REASONABLE MEASURES FOR RAID MEMBERS TO UNDERSTAND TACTICS:
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sun Tzu, the great Chinese military theoretician, wrote in his Art of War, the Sun Tzu Ping Fa:

    `Ensure that you have repeated your orders three times and explain them five times`

    /rw Thaddius throws negative and postive charges on players by shifting polarities.

    /rw When you are charged NEGATIVE you go to the LEFT of the Boss.

    /rw When you are charged POSITIVE you go to the RIGHT of the boss.

    /rw Polarities do NOT always change for all players. If you find yourself having maintained the same polarity, stay at the same spot.

    /rw Look at the right side of your screen for the + or – sign to understand what your polarity is.

    /rw Focus on getting the polarities right. Do NOT focus on DPS or healing alone.

    /rw ---------------------------------BOSS+++++++++++++++++++++++++

    /rw Whisper the Raid Assistants if you don’t understand something.

    I come from a Naval background myself, and I understand the importance of orders being explained to the men properly and with detail, if with brevity. This is the kind of explanation I would do prior to a Thaddius fight, discussion on the raid chat notwithstanding.

    Now respectfully, when the orders have been `repeated three times and explained five times` men failing to follow orders is NOT the fault of the Officers. Thaddius has got a very long learning curve. It requires people to have done the fight quite a few times to really get the feel of it.

    Now, while a boss like that would be more than fine for current content (i.e. guild progression content) it is not at all fine for content that is mainly addressed to PUGGIES.

    The complexity of the Thaddius fight is just too much for the average PUGGIE player. Content that is primarily addressed to random PUGGIES should not be a `bang your head on the wall for the whole night` experience.

    V. SUGGESTIONS:
    ----------------------------------

    Having taken the above into account I have got the following suggestions with regard to Naxxramas 25 man:

    1. The Thaddius encounter should be made less complex and more forgiving, considering the quality of players that now primarily seek to do it.

    2. Mind Control Orbs should be added in the 25 man version of the Instructor Razuvious encounter, thus removing the requirement for two Priests to be present in order to successfully complete the said encounter.

    Like GC says, bring the player not the class.

    I find the difficulty of the remainder Naxx 25 bosses perfectly fine for the average PUGGIE, thus I really do not have any further suggestions.

    Thanks and best regards

    P.S: The European forums are down, so I though I`d post this here to give it greater visibility. Will post same at the EU raid forums as soon as it is up.
    NINJA TURTLES as the next playable WoW race/class combo. WoW has got Kung Fu Pandas, Pokemon and recently even Transformers in it, so I don't see how Ninja Turtles would be any less pathetic than current "WoW" is.

  2. #2

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    Thanks.
    Herald of the Titans / Dedicated Insanity - 10man Only Guild

    Made by Sokogeka, a Legend.
    Oversized Avatar removed - Cilraaz

  3. #3

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    Very Nice Post, hope you dont get too many tldr's though.

  4. #4

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    Great post. Thanks for the info.
    I have been in a few 'fail' 25 Naxx pug runs and ... skipped. I prefer 10 man runs with my little guild where we all knew what/how/why.

    But, as I said great post.
    Warlock. Unholy beautiful.

  5. #5

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    Nicely written.

    Unfortunately I recognice every point you made :-\

    Especially Thaddius and Heigan are "fun" with a pug..


  6. #6

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmbringe
    Having taken the above into account I have got the following suggestions with regard to Naxxramas 25 man:

    1. The Thaddius encounter should be made less complex and more forgiving, considering the quality of players that now primarily seek to do it.

    2. Mind Control Orbs should be added in the 25 man version of the Instructor Razuvious encounter, thus removing the requirement for two Priests to be present in order to successfully complete the said encounter.
    OK - the stupid priest requirement on Razz could be changed, so annoying when I wanted to run naxx-25 on an alt people would make me bring the priest for Razz - but seriously thaddius?

    There is no need to nerf thadd - it's a perfectly simple encounter that requires you to
    a) make one jump
    b) move occasionally

    The problem with thaddius isn't that it's complex, it's that all the dps actually have to follow the tactics. On most every other encounter in Naxx the dps can get carried along so long as the healers &tanks know what to do.

    The complexity of the Thaddius fight is just too much for the average PUGGIE player. Content that is primarily addressed to random PUGGIES should not be a `bang your head on the wall for the whole night` experience.
    Surely the average puggie needs some content to work on which will challenge them? Apparently in your pugs that's thaddius. Given how quickly they'll gear past Naxx they'll just be wiping somewhere else soon enough.

  7. #7

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    I undertand the Priest deal but why would you continue to nerf something that CAN be pugged. If it can be done by the majority of players, then the small percent that can't will just have to enjoy the rest of the game. I myself am only an average player and am waiting for my last guild memeber to hit 80 before we go into Naxx10. But I have been in there for most of the fights on 10 and 25. It isn't hard. It requires a little bit of focus at times, but just like any game out there, it wouldn't be fun if you just beet it everytime without any effort.

    SO yes... for 25 man bring in the orbs, but please do not nerf the content.
    *
    67 Orc Shaman* ** 40 Undead Warlock
    23 Orc Hunter* * * 19 Tauren Druid
    13 Blood Elf Mage* 08 Undead Rouge**
    DK and Priest ready to start

  8. #8

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike

    a) make one jump
    b) move occasionally
    You overestimate the brain power of some pugs, or just players in this game.

    "Moving will hurt my DPS"
    "What, i need to move"
    "My mods don't let me see my debuffs"
    "What does the debuff look like"
    "But i need to be behind the boss"

    the list goes on......
    Anubbus -- 80 Undead Mage -- US* Bloodscalp
    Lapwnige -- 80 BE Tankadin -- US Bloodscalp

  9. #9
    Bloodsail Admiral Sturmbringe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Patras, Achaea, Greece
    Posts
    1,101

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    Quote Originally Posted by Azyoulike
    OK - the stupid priest requirement on Razz could be changed, so annoying when I wanted to run naxx-25 on an alt people would make me bring the priest for Razz - but seriously thaddius?

    There is no need to nerf thadd - it's a perfectly simple encounter that requires you to
    a) make one jump
    b) move occasionally

    The problem with thaddius isn't that it's complex, it's that all the dps actually have to follow the tactics. On most every other encounter in Naxx the dps can get carried along so long as the healers &tanks know what to do.

    Surely the average puggie needs some content to work on which will challenge them? Apparently in your pugs that's thaddius. Given how quickly they'll gear past Naxx they'll just be wiping somewhere else soon enough.
    You know there is a problem with a middle-of-the-pack Raid Boss (like Thaddius) in any given instance when:

    a. A boss found in the middle of the instance is harder than both of the end bosses, usually the final boss and the one before it, in this case Sapphiron and Kel' Thuzzad.

    This would be something like XT-002 being harder than both Vezax and Yogg.

    b. One of the most significant issues with Thaddius in PUGs is that I tend to lose way too many "puggies" because they are unable to get the polarities right, even after the instructions/orders have been repeated "three times and explained five times".

    c. Puggies feeling that they overcome content with a challenge is fine. What is NOT fine is Puggies feeling that they keep banging their head against a wall with no tangible result. Thaddius goes beyond the "challenge" category.

    d. You appear to think that PUGS wipe on Thaddius due to lack of DPS thus they wipe on Enrage. Perhaps I did not adequately clarify, but actually the reason Puggies wipe on Thaddius is not low sustained DPS but rather loss of way too many people due to failing to get the polarities right.

    The fight is in fact designed in such a manner, that you could actually have say 10 DPS in the neighbourhood of 2.5k sustained, and still complete the encounter if very few people or none at all die.

    I have done Naxxramas 25 way too many times, both from the viewpoint of Ranged and Melee in groups with varied ability, and I can positively state that Thaddius is the one and only boss in the instance that PUGS feel to be a next-to- insurmountable obstacle regardless of the personal ability and communicaion skills of the Raid Leader.

    In any case, content primarily addressed to Puggies, should not require a Raid Leader with a degree in Human Resource Management to beat through. I specialise in Human Resource Management, this is what I have been basically doing in my whole life, both in and out of the Navy and I hope that I will not sound too selfish if I say that I consider myself to be an above-average Raid leader. So forgive me if I sound egoistic, this is not my intention.

    Of course, I have managed to complete the entire instance with Puggies. It took me three nights to do so, but I did do it. It's just that I -and others- find that they waste way too much time on Thaddius, and sometimes Thaddius is an obstacle we just can't get through like yesterday.
    NINJA TURTLES as the next playable WoW race/class combo. WoW has got Kung Fu Pandas, Pokemon and recently even Transformers in it, so I don't see how Ninja Turtles would be any less pathetic than current "WoW" is.

  10. #10

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    too much reading :| just dont pug?

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    1,241

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    Well written post.

    Instructor in Naxx-25 is, IMHO, a stupid fight. You HAVE to bring two of a specific class and they HAVE to know how to use a specific ability (I've seen too many priests utterly fail at mind control there). Worse, at least one of them is usually a healer, meaning you're either a healer down for the fight or someone has to fill in; you can argue that the healing requirements aren't as high as other fights... but it's still an issue. (People who normally tank DPSing is a much smaller problem - small enough to be insignificant in this case.)

    ... and if your guild went from 10-man to 25-man, it's even worse: most 10-man guilds use the tank/off-tank to use the orbs... which means the people who have "trained" that role in the fight CAN'T fulfill it in 25-man.

    As the OP stated multiple times, this isn't an issue for raiding guilds... but for PUGs, it's painful.

  12. #12

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    Maybe, MAYBE I can be convinced to agree with you on the priest thing.

    That being said, there is no way in hell you can rationalize nerfing Thaddius. Naxx is already far too easy compared to its former glory, it's barely challenging enough to be considered legitimate raid content. If people can't handle Thaddius, then why should they get the loot handed to them anyway? There is such a thing as not being good enough, the answer shouldn't always be to lower the bar so retards can squeak through.
    Actually, Mr. Lennon, I CAN imagine a world with no hatred, religion, war, or violence.
    I can also imagine attacking such a world, because they would never see it coming.

    http://mhkeehn.tripod.com/trashcan.jpg
    http://politicalhumor.about.com/libr...s/carville.jpe

    For once, Carville was a man ahead of his time.

  13. #13
    Dreadlord Aerikaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Surface of the Sun
    Posts
    818

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    Our guild uses PuG Naxx25s to recruit new people and you are spot on about Instructor. We have 4 players with priests, but only 1 is a main so we try to pug them as often as possible. What I don't get is how people can still not grasp the Thaddius concept. The fight does not need nerfed, players just have to pay attention to their surroundings and which buff they have. I see this same mentallity in other fights, such as Razorscale or Hodir, where they stand their and finish casting instead of getting out of the avoidable stuff. Most PuGs think that all fights are the tanks' or healers' responsibility and they just do their thing.
    Only 2 things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe - Albert Einstein

  14. #14

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    TL;RA (Too long, read anyway )

    So right about Construct quarter... although last pug I tried, the puggies couldn't handle "run anticlockwise" on Thaddius so after about 8 wipes, most of which had all the bads die in the first 30 seconds and then the other 14 of us get him to 30% before enrage. So I sighed, we went to spider, and it at least wasn't a total loss for emblems.

    I wish I were on a better server. :/
    Ultralisk-Nagrand / Táne-Nagrand / Wuggles-Nagrand / Koras-Thaurrisan / Dieselsun-Thaurissan / Bezoar-Thaurissan

  15. #15

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    omg i agree 100%


    the last 5 times i've joined a pug for naxx 25 just trying to get a lucky drop at grim toll here is how it goes

    we pull spiders fine with usually a wipe on widow because there is ALWAYS a dps to aoe the adds right off the bat even though we said not to.

    plague will go forth with a wipe or 2 at hiegan

    construct will go this way: trash prior to patchwerk will be good untill the melee decides to aoe the big room of slimes (3rd) and procedes to die while the last 8 people in the raid move through the door of the next room.
    10 mins later they are ready to pull the next group of trash minus the 2 people sitting afk in the "naxx lobby where mr bigglesworth is"

    after half the room is clear they either come back or died, released and ran back to find

    the room of all the slimes have respawned and the room of 4-5 slimes have respawned.

    we come back to clear that room and get multiple more deaths and then eventually all pass through it.

    we continue with the trash and have 1-2 other deaths and must pull the room AGAIN

    we get to patchwerk and 1 shot him.

    we move to frogger and have as you said 5-6 deaths who must be rezzed

    we wipe on grobbulus because people run through the middle of the group.

    we clear him next time and move on to gluth where people fall off the pipe although i've never had someone die in the pipe of death i agree it is annoying


    on gluth we have had the situation on 25 man where the raid leader tries to "do the kiting with 1-2 people"

    and then again they don't aoe the adds so another wipe.



    once we finally get gluth down the big aboms after him kill 90% of the raid because we try to pull during loot.

    we rez then wipe 5-6 times on thaddius because of fail at jumping or fail at moving around.

    without killing thaddius
    we move onto military and sure enough even with 2-3 priests we still try to do it with only 1 priest mind controling.


    we fail and the raid breaks up and i leave after many wipes



    feel free to swap the quarters around in any way you'd like but it still works

  16. #16

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    Great post really enjoyed it.
    "For if men needed speech in order to learn to think, they had a still greater need for knowing how to think in order to discover the art of speaking"

  17. #17

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    25 man Naxx has been replaced by H ToC and badge/crafted gear. For most classes, it's not worth the time/effort to go there and get a couple of pieces of loot that's equal/worse than what you could get by farming heroics. It was still a good post, and I agree that requiring 2 priests to complete the instance is really stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinshiva
    The fact remains that you FUCKING FAIL.

  18. #18

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    Quote Originally Posted by gobtol
    25 man Naxx has been replaced by H ToC and badge/crafted gear. For most classes, it's not worth the time/effort to go there and get a couple of pieces of loot that's equal/worse than what you could get by farming heroics. It was still a good post, and I agree that requiring 2 priests to complete the instance is really stupid.
    umm in most if not all specs grim toll is prolly 5th bis for a physical class

    trinkets ar the reason dude good ones

    And kt drops gear better than HToc anyway

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer Zka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    hungary
    Posts
    3,653

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    I'd rather see all raid content unpuggable. Some people can't even walk properly, they deserve no raiding.

    Khetana of the Four Winds (disc/shadow)
    Pretty much retired now... but coming back for WoD!

  20. #20

    Re: Naxxramas 25: A PUG`s Raid Leader POV

    Good post.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •