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  1. #21

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    Div sac can stop a wipe, has stopped wipes and will continue to do so. If you look at a lot of twins strats they involve using div sac + aura mastery to stop a huge (and it is huge) amount of damage. It can make the unhealable, healable and the healable, trivial. At the start of our hard mode attempts, we found the XT's tantrum was causing problems. We had 4 paladins in the raid and we started to experiment with div sac and we've never loked back. It insane, probs boardering on overpowered and mitigates a huge amount of damage.

    Just in case you didn't know, when you bubble, it continues far past the limit of divine sacrifice, ie you don't stop 100 and whatever % of your hp, you in theory stop and infinite amount of damage. Also your example doesn't do that much justice to div sac as at the start Koralon's aoe doesn't tend to kill the raid, but a bile in the melee or if too many people are grouped up at range can be saved by a quick div sac/bubble.

    Honestly I cannot recommend intelligent use of this ability enough. Try it on XT during tantrum and just watch how insanely easy it becomes.

  2. #22

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    as raiss said. 'any toc hard mode..' i did specify i was talking about normal modes. i just dont see any boss doing THAT much damage to everyone, that the healers cant just focus on the raid for a few seconds; the tanks should not die in that time. or as a pally i keep beacon up, etc. i do see the fact that it can save a bit in hard modes, but i honestly cant say either way; i also said i havent done hard modes, so i have no experience/right to talk there. i do understand with bubble, it'll never absorb over 150% of your hp or w.e the % is since it'll do 0 damage to you; i have this for my pvp spec. i guess this does make more sense (+6% healing for all healers) >5 crit if theres no prot pally especially. you convinced me. .

    -slyyce
    Quote Originally Posted by Badpaladin
    South Park's 'Gay Fish' was actually a lot catchier than a lot of Kanye songs.* Yeah.

  3. #23

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    One example of how it can save a raid is if you have a periodic AE that needs to get healed such that raid members have to be topped off sufficiently or they die.

    Mitigating a portion of that raid wide damage with DivSac (or chaining them with multiple paladins across multiple AEs) can significantly reduce the healing burden and turn a wipe into a victory.

    At the very least, it can make for much smoother encounters when used properly.

  4. #24

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    Quote Originally Posted by harrygoboom
    as raiss said. 'any toc hard mode..' i did specify i was talking about normal modes. i just dont see any boss doing THAT much damage to everyone, that the healers cant just focus on the raid for a few seconds; the tanks should not die in that time. or as a pally i keep beacon up, etc. i do see the fact that it can save a bit in hard modes, but i honestly cant say either way; i also said i havent done hard modes, so i have no experience/right to talk there. i do understand with bubble, it'll never absorb over 150% of your hp or w.e the % is since it'll do 0 damage to you; i have this for my pvp spec. i guess this does make more sense (+6% healing for all healers) >5 crit if theres no prot pally especially. you convinced me. .

    -slyyce
    I can solo heal ToC-25man regular, starting each fight with 30% mana. It's not because it works that it makes it right.

    And it's not a holy paladin's job to give a +6% healing aura, resto druids will always have this talent, so prot paladins will.

  5. #25

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    umm

    i have a level 80 paladin.. (ret)

    when i tryied to change to holy.. i dont have any healing gear :-[

    my healing in retri better than holy xD

    so sorry i cant help :-\

  6. #26

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    Quote Originally Posted by reikoku
    Hey guys,

    I have just recently started playing my Holy Paladin again, and I'm not exactly sure what patch 3.2 has done for paladins. What stats should I want most on my gear, what should I gem, and what spec should I have.

    I don't raid hard modes or anything, but I will be raiding 10 and 25 man ToTC just to give you an idea of the content I'm on.

    I also have 4pc of the T7, so I can always interchange that with my current gear if you find that better.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...onar&n=Reikoku

    thanks so much guys
    1- Farm heroics for conquer head and chest;
    2- Farm regular ToC for the 84 int trinket;
    3- You can farm even more heroics for pants/gloves/neck/belt from conquer emblems;
    4- Aim for 28-30k mana on raids (bufffed);
    5- Your weapon/shield and libram are harder to improve and you ll be sticking with it for some time, they are still very good;
    6- Your specc is good, i would only include aura mastering to it, but it isint mandatory;
    7- You crit isint the way to go anymore, so you can change your trinkets for more mana regen or int, i personaly have the ToC with 84 int plus the triumph one with 124 int;
    8- HL is you best healing spell, beacon the MT and spamm it over the raid (since the new beacon).

    All that i can remember for now.

  7. #27

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    Quote Originally Posted by WoRsT
    umm

    i have a level 80 paladin.. (ret)

    when i tryied to change to holy.. i dont have any healing gear :-[

    my healing in retri better than holy xD

    so sorry i cant help :-\
    Then why did you bother posting in the first place?

    To the OP: The people telling you to socket intellect in practically everything are right. Use a Nightmare Tear in one socket to get your meta requirement and socket +20 intellect (Brilliant King's Amber) in everything else.

    The reason for spellpower not being a huge priority is that holy light's spellpower coefficient is fairly low.* Holy light will be your primary spell unless you just plan on just healing heroics.**

    Anyone telling you to gem for spellpower and just use Flash of Light is either an idiot, they have some epic healers in their guild and an interesting healing comp, or they're running content that their group is overgeared for. The vast majority of holy paladins that are on content appropriate for their guild's gear and skill will use Holy Light as their primary heal** (in before flames from people that use Flash of Light).

    If you can pull 6K HPS*** from Flash of Light spamming and keep your tanks alive without overburdening your other healers, feel free to post a parse and prove me wrong...****


    * I believe the coefficient for Holy Light is 75%.
    ** Primary heal in the sense that the majority of their healing comes from this (directly or by way of Beacon of Light). This isn't to say Flash of Light is useless and doesn't have its place during a fight.
    *** In before "6k hps is srs biz" posts and people bragging about their HPS
    **** In before posts "proving" me wrong without parses

  8. #28

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    I guess i've got a question too. Why is everyone using Holy Light? I don't raid hardmodes atm our guild sticks to Uld - 10 and ToC -10 and i PuG Naxx - 10/25 and all stand alone bosses. But i never use Holy Light (unless really needed e.g. Tank on 30% hp) i admit some of my gear is PVP and my spell power is reasonably high along with crit (2k UB SP 22% crit UB) and i can get 7k flashes easy, 10k+ with a wings and 13k with Heroism and Wing (These are crits btw) Any advise... or flames -_-
    The Rules of the Internet:
    If some one uses an item or geninue skill to beat you, they're a noob.
    If you use the same item and beat them, your're pro
    If they create a fair fight of 1v1 all same weps/skills ect and they win, they hacked
    If they have better skill aquired items, they have no life
    If they rage at you, they are 12
    If they troll you, they are homosexual
    If they write something usefull and interesting, doesn't matter TLR

  9. #29

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynx
    I guess i've got a question too. Why is everyone using Holy Light? I don't raid hardmodes atm our guild sticks to Uld - 10 and ToC -10 and i PuG Naxx - 10/25 and all stand alone bosses. But i never use Holy Light (unless really needed e.g. Tank on 30% hp) i admit some of my gear is PVP and my spell power is reasonably high along with crit (2k UB SP 22% crit UB) and i can get 7k flashes easy, 10k+ with a wings and 13k with Heroism and Wing (These are crits btw) Any advise... or flames -_-
    Everyone is using HL because its throughput is better and its the only reliable way to keep the raid going in END GAME content (no that doesnt mean 10m razorscale).

    Heroism has no impact on spell damage.

    wowwiki shows the coef for HL @ 71% of +sp.

    FoL is a bad bad bad spell for anything you dont already over gear.
    I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want.* If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you I don't have money; but what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I've acquired over a very long career, skills that make me a nightmare for people like you.* If you let my daughter go now that will be the end of it.* I will not look for you, i will not pursue you but if you don't;* I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you.

  10. #30

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    Quote Originally Posted by Munk
    Everyone is using HL because its throughput is better and its the only reliable way to keep the raid going in END GAME content (no that doesnt mean 10m razorscale).

    Heroism has no impact on spell damage.

    wowwiki shows the coef for HL @ 71% of +sp.

    FoL is a bad bad bad spell for anything you dont already over gear.
    Ah thank you very much for that And yes i realised Razorscale isn't end game :P He's just a big woss really.
    The Rules of the Internet:
    If some one uses an item or geninue skill to beat you, they're a noob.
    If you use the same item and beat them, your're pro
    If they create a fair fight of 1v1 all same weps/skills ect and they win, they hacked
    If they have better skill aquired items, they have no life
    If they rage at you, they are 12
    If they troll you, they are homosexual
    If they write something usefull and interesting, doesn't matter TLR

  11. #31

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynx
    Ah thank you very much for that And yes i realised Razorscale isn't end game :P He's just a big woss really.
    "She is just a big wuss." Razorscale is female.

  12. #32

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    To address a few different posts in this thread:

    1. Int is the best stat to stack at your gear level. Whether you continue to stack it later on is debatable. The current EJ theorycrafting holds that Int is the best stat to stack until extremely high gear levels (think 3k+ SP unbuffed). More on this later, but for now - stack Int.

    2. Divine Sacrifice is *that* good. It is. If you don't think it is... I feel bad for you. The way that DS/DS works, if the damage absorbed goes beyond 150% of the Paladin's HP with simultaneous damage, the DS/DS absorb limit bugs and it absorbs 40% for the full duration. XT tantrum is a good example where DS/DS has shown to absorb up to 150,000 damage on parses. Yes - 150,000 damage. It is *that* good.

    3. Aura Mastery is also *that* good. I'd drop Impr Devo Aura if you're often running with a tree. Once you get to Ulduar 25 hard-modes, it is amazing. Ground Tremor on Freya. Deafening Roar on Yogg. I'd estimate 1 in 3 hard-modes benefit from having silence/interrupt immunity.

    4. Final point is going back to the first point. Again, Int is the best stat to stack until very high gear levels. However, there's a certain point where you have to ask yourself, "Do I need to spam Holy Light the entire fight?" The answer is no, and it never has been. Pre-3.2 it was possible to spam it, so everybody did. But I tell you, I helped 2-heal a 10m OS 3D in January, pre-zerg tactic. I used Flash of Light. Not all the time mind you, but I used it.

    If you use XPerl or something similar, try setting up your UI to show health as a deficit rather than a percentage. You'd be amazed at how often you can use Flash of Light.

    Our job is not to top meters. Overhealing is natural, but we shouldn't aim to overheal with absolutely no concern about it. If somebody is -5k and you can top them with a Flash of Light, there is no point in using Holy Light. If somebody is -15k, then there is no point in using Flash of Light.

    Paladins who use one heal are just bad. We only have three, is it that hard to use two of them?

    And before the "you're bad" posts, I'm 6/9 Ulduar 25 hard-modes, 2/5 ToC heroic, and could go on. Three years experience playing a Holy Paladin. At times I've gemmed pure Int. At times I've gemmed pure SP. I do my homework but, more importantly, try stuff out.

  13. #33

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynx
    I guess i've got a question too. Why is everyone using Holy Light? I don't raid hardmodes atm our guild sticks to Uld - 10 and ToC -10 and i PuG Naxx - 10/25 and all stand alone bosses. But i never use Holy Light (unless really needed e.g. Tank on 30% hp) i admit some of my gear is PVP and my spell power is reasonably high along with crit (2k UB SP 22% crit UB) and i can get 7k flashes easy, 10k+ with a wings and 13k with Heroism and Wing (These are crits btw) Any advise... or flames -_-
    1st- your tank ll be probaly dead if you need to cast a emergency only HL, you need to have the 0.5 sec cast redution buff always up.
    2nd- 7K for crits, your tank wont survive with a bad luck like 3 no crits FL.
    3rd- Gratz to your other healers, they are doing their jobs and yours.

  14. #34

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbobubblin
    However, there's a certain point where you have to ask yourself, "Do I need to spam Holy Light the entire fight?" The answer is no, and it never has been. Pre-3.2 it was possible to spam it, so everybody did. But I tell you, I helped 2-heal a 10m OS 3D in January, pre-zerg tactic. I used Flash of Light. Not all the time mind you, but I used it.
    I was doing H ToC 10 last night and had to Holy Light spam one tank while keeping Beacon of Light up on the other tank just to keep them alive on Gormok. I'm not trying to challenge what you're saying, necessarily, I just want to iterate that the healing composition of one's particular raid as well as the gear and skill level of one's fellow healers plays a large role in how much output a particular healer has to maintain.

    I don't mean to sound argumentative with that, just that your particular experience isn't enough to be talking definitively about every encounter in the game. There's a significant amount of "your mileage my vary" when talking about healing, given the number of variables that could be different between one person and another.

    Saying you used Flash of Light during an OS10 2-man heal doesn't really bring any useful information to your post. I use Flash of Light in every encounter, but that doesn't mean that it's accounting for more than 30% of my overall healing. In any event, OS is a poor example of healing potential. If everyone in your raid is doing their jobs right, 2-manning OS10-3D isn't that difficult (I do not mean this in an elitist "it's so easy" manner) to heal, especially if you're running with players in 226-239 gear [read: Ulduar 25 + hardmode gear].

  15. #35

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynx
    I guess i've got a question too. Why is everyone using Holy Light? I don't raid hardmodes atm our guild sticks to Uld - 10 and ToC -10 and i PuG Naxx - 10/25 and all stand alone bosses. But i never use Holy Light (unless really needed e.g. Tank on 30% hp) i admit some of my gear is PVP and my spell power is reasonably high along with crit (2k UB SP 22% crit UB) and i can get 7k flashes easy, 10k+ with a wings and 13k with Heroism and Wing (These are crits btw) Any advise... or flames -_-
    I play a holy pally myself and were workin on anub in ToGC and just got algalon a few days ago i just had to post just to let you know why good pallys use holy light, the reason is it takes 1.2sec to cast and hit from anywhere from 12-14k now that is basicly enough to heal anyone who just took a large amout of damage also it will beacon to the tank. you said u only holy light when the tank is at 30% are u retared dont ever let a tank sit at 30% unless you asking for a whipe becuase bossses tend to hit hard thats the why we use tanks. also 2k ub spellpower is garabge and 22 crit unbuffed is also horrible. i try not to flame people or be mean but when you say shit as stooooopppid as this then i must reply and also how can your FoL be higher with Heroism/bloodlust all it does it make u cast faster not more SP please just go play a DK.

  16. #36

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    Quote Originally Posted by dissilusion
    I play a holy pally myself and were workin on anub in ToGC and just got algalon a few days ago i just had to post just to let you know why good pallys use holy light, the reason is it takes 1.2sec to cast and hit from anywhere from 12-14k now that is basicly enough to heal anyone who just took a large amout of damage also it will beacon to the tank. you said u only holy light when the tank is at 30% are u retared dont ever let a tank sit at 30% unless you asking for a whipe becuase bossses tend to hit hard thats the why we use tanks. also 2k ub spellpower is garabge and 22 crit unbuffed is also horrible. i try not to flame people or be mean but when you say shit as stooooopppid as this then i must reply and also how can your FoL be higher with Heroism/bloodlust all it does it make u cast faster not more SP please just go play a DK.
    "I try not to flame people or be mean", but: http://www.dummies.com/store/product...764553224.html

  17. #37

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbobubblin
    To address a few different posts in this thread:

    1. Int is the best stat to stack at your gear level. Whether you continue to stack it later on is debatable. The current EJ theorycrafting holds that Int is the best stat to stack until extremely high gear levels (think 3k+ SP unbuffed). More on this later, but for now - stack Int.

    2. Divine Sacrifice is *that* good. It is. If you don't think it is... I feel bad for you. The way that DS/DS works, if the damage absorbed goes beyond 150% of the Paladin's HP with simultaneous damage, the DS/DS absorb limit bugs and it absorbs 40% for the full duration. XT tantrum is a good example where DS/DS has shown to absorb up to 150,000 damage on parses. Yes - 150,000 damage. It is *that* good.

    3. Aura Mastery is also *that* good. I'd drop Impr Devo Aura if you're often running with a tree. Once you get to Ulduar 25 hard-modes, it is amazing. Ground Tremor on Freya. Deafening Roar on Yogg. I'd estimate 1 in 3 hard-modes benefit from having silence/interrupt immunity.

    4. Final point is going back to the first point. Again, Int is the best stat to stack until very high gear levels. However, there's a certain point where you have to ask yourself, "Do I need to spam Holy Light the entire fight?" The answer is no, and it never has been. Pre-3.2 it was possible to spam it, so everybody did. But I tell you, I helped 2-heal a 10m OS 3D in January, pre-zerg tactic. I used Flash of Light. Not all the time mind you, but I used it.

    If you use XPerl or something similar, try setting up your UI to show health as a deficit rather than a percentage. You'd be amazed at how often you can use Flash of Light.

    Our job is not to top meters. Overhealing is natural, but we shouldn't aim to overheal with absolutely no concern about it. If somebody is -5k and you can top them with a Flash of Light, there is no point in using Holy Light. If somebody is -15k, then there is no point in using Flash of Light.

    Paladins who use one heal are just bad. We only have three, is it that hard to use two of them?

    And before the "you're bad" posts, I'm 6/9 Ulduar 25 hard-modes, 2/5 ToC heroic, and could go on. Three years experience playing a Holy Paladin. At times I've gemmed pure Int. At times I've gemmed pure SP. I do my homework but, more importantly, try stuff out.
    you just said everything i wanted to say pallys who dont get AurMastery or DS or retared they probley rely on the other healers to make the raid survive and they just sit they and spam flash of light, sigh...... at all these bad holy pallys

  18. #38
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    124

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    Since it was part of the discussion earlier, here's some numbers to help evaluate the difference between Holy/Ret and Holy/Prot for PvE. Only abilities that effect our healing or damage mitigation are being evaluated.

    To keep this short, none of the math behind these numbers is being included. Everything is pretty simple, but if you absolutely can't figure out how I got these numbers send me a PM.

    Holy/Ret
    8% Crit from Talents (5/5 Conviction + 3/3 Sanctity of Battle)
    * This is worth an average of 3.2% increase in total healing
    (For a reasonably geared Pally, not factoring overheals)
    * Worth 60mp5 while casting a HL every 2.5 sec (play style/fight Dependant)

    10% Reduced cost of Instant Spells (5/5 Benediction)
    * This mostly effects Sacred Shield, Beacon of Light, Holy Shock and Cleanse
    * Worth 10mp5 for Sacred Shield (25s between refreshes)
    * Worth 14mp5 for Beacon of light (55s between refreshes)
    * Worth 9mp5 for Beacon of Light + Glyph of BoL (85s between refreshes)
    * Worth 40mp5 for Holy Shock (10s between uses - varies with play style)
    * Worth 4mp5 for Cleanse (30s between uses - varies with fight)


    Holy Prot
    5% Increased Healing Effect (5/5 Divinity)
    * Double effect on self heals

    Raid Wide Damage Reduction (Divine Sacrifice)
    * Combined with Divine Shield there is a huge potential for damage reduction
    * It is possible to leafrog over the 150/160% limit due to server lag not cutting off the effect immediately

    6% Raid Wide Healing Increase (3/3 Improved Devotion Aura)
    * This will very likely already be covered by another spec in a 25m raid
    * A good buff if you're in groups that don't have this covered already

    Increased Duration and Effectiveness of Sacred Shield (2/2 Divine Guardian)
    * Worth 55mp5 from refreshing Sacred Shield every 55s instead of every 25s
    * Roughly 500 additional damage absorbed every 6 seconds

    edit: typos; added sacred shield




  19. #39

    Re: Holy Paladin PvE help please

    For those who haven't mentioned nor considered it, end-game Paladin healing goes beyond JUST spamming Holy Lights on the tanks or raid and refreshing Sacred Shield and Beacon of Light when necessary. If you have the wherewithal and the ability to track several timers at once (helps if you've played a Restoration Druid before), it's EXTREMELY useful to use Flash of Light and Holy Shock for their periodic buffs and heals.

    First, Flash of Light is useful (and even more so once you've acquired 4 pieces of T9.32/45/58 to grant the buff) for keeping the 12 second heal over time on the target with Sacred Shield active. If you've got multiple tanks or targets with Sacred Shield active, and someone may have to correct me or verify this tidbit of information as I haven't explicitly tested it, you can have multiple Sacred Shield-Flash of Light HoTs rolling on targets with Sacred Shield up. Beyond that, I haven't really found extensive uses for Flash of Light other than using Divine Plea and the USE factor of my Meteorite Crystal for a mini-innervate on myself (Meteorite Crystal can be looted from Algalon-10) or perhaps the occasional raid heal/top-off during low points of damage influx in certain encounters (See: Northrend Beasts, Anub'arak burrow phases). Of course the DP/MC combination is likely only to be used during such periods or if I know I can call for a fellow healer to pick up some of my slack while I regenerate a significant portion of my mana pool. If you're feeling extra cocky, throw in a Divine Illumination on top of that and I guarantee you'll find more mana than you know what to do with. If this happens during Heroism, careful not to think you're a druid.

    Regarding Holy Shock, I've recently started experimenting with using Holy Shock on cool-down to grant myself (assuming a critical strike) the 20% critical strike chance to my next Holy Light or an instant Flash of Light if I would like to refresh my aforementioned heal over time on a player with Sacred Shield. Whether or not this is in my best interest to do so, I'm going to see what kind of HPS and efficiency feels I get for the situation. Granted, this is with 3/5 Benediction so I do get a little bit of a bonus mana reduction cost to my Sacred Shields and Beacons as well as Holy Shock. As a side note, I've found using Divine Favor to guarantee the critical Holy Shock to give myself either of these choices, it can be either really useful or really "blah". For instance, the Critical Holy Shock followed with a theoretical Holy Light critical can be upwards of 35,000 healing done in a matter of 2 globals. Of course, this is plus or minus 3,000-5,000 healing done dependent on spell power trinkets or using Avenging Wrath. My personal preference is popping Avenging Wrath, Divine Favor and then following the combination with Holy Shock - Holy Light. Nets you with some pretty nasty heals.

    -TLR-
    There's more to endgame Paladin healing than just spamming our heal with the highest throughput. Hope I didn't make anyone's head hurt. If you'd like to discuss ANY of this with me, feel free either in-game or via PM.

    Tyde
    <Clockwerk>, Executus - US

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...xecutus&n=Tyde
    Cheare - 80 Human Paladin
    <Deus Vox> Laughing Skull - US

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