1. #1

    So I'm an owl, but is my dps really supposed to be this random? (Yogg10)

    Hello everyone,

    Having been a tanking druid for most of my WoW life, and just only a few months back switched to resto, I have, due to medical issues (nothing grave, just my arm disagreeing with spamming Maul), been unable to tank. As such I decided I should respec moonkin for the first time ever. This was a few weeks back.

    I've read several guides, am very positive I have a good spec because it's the spec most topmoonkins use and is adviced in guides. My gear is severly lacking considering it's Yogg, having 4T7 and some random Ulduar10/ToC10 resto gear. I am hitcapped in a raidenvironment (that is, if I just cast imp FF xD) despite the resto gear, and am somewhat below 2k spellpower.

    So I might kinda have taken it too fast with my owl, but our casual guild's progressing on Yogg required me to go balance for a change, because we needed the buffs an owl brings and one more ranged. Now this pretty much yielded the same crappy results I've had in, for example, heroics: loads of fast dying adds. I do pretty nice damage on other bosses considering my gear and lack of experience (4k I think on average depending on how much Eclipse likes me), but everything dying so fast doesn't allow me proper Eclipse rotations.

    What happens is that when I'm done spamming Wrath, Eclipse will likely proc and will likely wear off by the time I can start nuking the new add. Similarly, on tentacles in phase 2 often when I *finally* get Eclipse to proc the tentacle is as good as dead. When I'm in luck I can switch to any small tentacle nearby, but when I'm out of it, it will have been the Starfire eclipse proccing and its cast time is simply too long to get the most benefit out of eclipse. Might note that we have barely been into phase 3, just brain phase progress atm.


    Now I'm posting this here because in my old, more serious 25 man guild, we had moonkins doing pretty nice damage and not such variable, random dps. On every try their dps was more or less constant. I'm not expecting to do their damage with my gear, but I'm just REALLY struggling with the eclipse procs. Is this really only to do with my gear? Or with me? Or is this the way it is?

    I've tried it both ways - start Wrath, hope for a Eclipse, and continue Starfire, but since Wrath's crits doesn't always proc Eclipse, with some bad luck I'll stand there spamming Wraths forever. That, and when Eclipse does proc Starfire, it has too long a cast time to be beneficial. I've then tried the other way around, but somehow this yielded even worse dps. O.o

    My dps on a Yogg try would be anywhere between 1.8k and 3.9k. The point is not that 3.9 is low for Yogg, the point is that doing dps anywhere between 1.8 and 3.9 seems a bit off. Am I doing something miserably wrong?

    I am using Squawk and Awe, yes. I have 17.75% crit and 420 haste selfbuffed. We were running with 2 mages, 2 protadins, one ret, one dk, one disc priest, one resto druid, and one dpsing warrior (and yes, I have Focus Magic on me). I know the synergy doesn't like me that much and I'm pretty much the buffbot in this setup, but still.

    So basically what would you advice me to do? Is this *normal* on a Yogg fight for moonkins, this variable dps? If it's a l2play issue, please teach me. Or am I a lost cause and should I just bring my properly geared Warlock next time with who I do know how to play? How should I handle fastdying mobs? How should I handle Yogg?

    Thank you for your time and sorry for the wall of text (if it critted you, who knows, might have procced a proper eclipse for a change.. x.x)


    TL;DR: My dps on a Yogg try would be anywhere between 1.8k and 3.9k. The point is not that 3.9 is low for Yogg, the point is that doing dps anywhere between 1.8 and 3.9 seems a bit off. Am I doing something miserably wrong?

  2. #2

    Re: So I'm an owl, but is my dps really supposed to be this random? (Yogg10)

    Well first off without a meter its really hard to tell what your doing. On my guild's yogg 10 kill tonight, I think I averaged about 4kish dps, and was 3rd overall on damage. The crusher tents should last long enough for you to proc a eclipse and use the entire buff, unless you get very unlucky. As far as the little tents, I just dot those up and run around the room til i have them all dotted and burn them down with starfire as its better on mana and they dont last long.

    Keep in mind yogg is a very complex fight. The plague stops you from moving, malady causes temp control loss, and brain link can force you to stop dpsing while you try to find your buddy (who always seems to be on the complete opposite side of the room). As a boomkin a large portion of your dps comes from casting eclipsed nukes, and anytime you have to move during eclipse your going to see a big loss in dps, so becuase of these factors I can see how you have such a large difference in min dps vs max dps (keep in mind due to rng most boomkins do notice a 200-500 dps difference in min dps vs max dps).

    edit: also if diminish power is stacking that can cause a huge loss in dps, in which case you can pop trees on the tent, to get them to stop channeling.

  3. #3

    Re: So I'm an owl, but is my dps really supposed to be this random? (Yogg10)

    as shankd said in his last bit, rng can play a huge role. Im gonna take steelbreaker as the example since its a lot of stand still nuking but has a bit of movement for runes and stuffs. On that fight im generally anywhere betweeen 5 and 7k. The window of dps doesnt seem to fall short, sometimes you can just get extremely unlucky with non-crit streaks or wrath crits not proccing eclipse.

    On the main note, you seem to have an understanding of your class, its just the gear holding you back atm. Self buffed the spellpower and crit are very icky, the haste is nice. Since we know you pretty much have all of ulduar and we know you have some toc pieces the gear shouldn't take very long to find you, so just keep a chin up for that =D, and when you happen to get more crit from gear you will notice eclipse proccing more often, and chain proccing sometimes like a madman.

  4. #4

    Re: So I'm an owl, but is my dps really supposed to be this random? (Yogg10)

    That's so true to be said. Rng can be a pain, or not. A lot of movement affects our DPS as well.



    If you could provide an armory link, that would also be appreciated & more helpful !

  5. #5

    Re: So I'm an owl, but is my dps really supposed to be this random? (Yogg10)

    i'm usually topping meters on our guilds yogg +0 tries (first 2 phases only, ofc). dunno what is wrong with you.
    2k sp seems very low.

  6. #6
    Deleted

    Re: So I'm an owl, but is my dps really supposed to be this random? (Yogg10)

    Yogg-Saron is not the fight to really evaluate your damage. You get damage bonuses, but you have to run around. You get time where you stand and nuke, and you have times where you can only put up dots. You have to do a lot of damage, but can't kill adds at random. On top of that, we still have RNG to worry about.

    My workaround on Yogg is as follows:

    Phase 1 is spent mainly using wrath and eclipse. Whether you dance around the clouds or if you are all standing at the door, you should be able to go from one mob to the next fairly evenly. Forget about dots, they are more of an annoyance than a help on phase 1. Simply go through eclipses, using whatever you proc, but try to proc solar eclipse as often as possible, because its fast to proc, and you can get more out of it than if you are trying to use starfires to nuke them down.

    Phase 2 is full out nuke. Dot corruptors up when you run from crusher to crusher, and then put full dots up on the crusher you are attacking - it will take a while for it to go down. When it dies, move on to the next, but run past the most corruptors you can and throw IS and MF on them as you go. That keeps them down, and it does more damage for you.

    Phase 3 usually has ranged on Yogg-Saron. Simply dot him up and try and use your rotations as much as possible - when his gaze is off CD, throw a moonfire, turn around (cause you can't cast moonfire on targets behind you, which you can with-), insect swarm, and as soon as his cast is finished, turn around and keep nuking.

    You might be suffering from RNG if your crit is low - you are in mixed resto gear so it may not be optimal for doing damage. You didn't tell us what your crit and haste was, but i remember that my DPS was very random when i was down at 20% crit - eclipse takes ages to proc. Naturally, tier piece set bonuses help us with that if our stats are low, but you didn't tell us what you are wearing.

    An armory link, or at least a list of your crit and haste, aswell as if you have any moonkin tier gear, is really needed if we have to offer more suggestions

  7. #7

    Re: So I'm an owl, but is my dps really supposed to be this random? (Yogg10)

    Thanks everyone for those amazing replies. <3

    We've downed Yogg yesterday (omg, me, as moonkin, haha). Anyway, I realize that Yogg isn't the best fight to measure DPS, I was wondering whether it's normal my dps is so random on it. Your posts were of great help, it was an amazing kill and was a lot of fun to try the max dotting part.

    Diseases, magic and poison debuffs were hardly an issue, running with a disc priest helped a lot and we kept the tentacle population under very strict control, standing around doing nothing before brain and after brain phases a lot. Despite this, we still entered phase 3 with 2 corruptors up though, which was easily ignored by the occasional dispel.

    The real issue for me was the horrid luck with the RNG, having Eclipse proc right as stuff died.

    On the kill I was third on damage with 3.9k dps (mostly because 2 of the dps who would have outdps'd me were dead x.x). With the emblems I was able to buy T8.5 stuff for my balance spec and am now on 2201 spellpower, 21% crit (low?), and 460 haste.

    I didn't provide an Armory link because I logged out as resto. I will look it up immediatly and try and remember to log out as moonkin later.

    On a sidenote, I respecced my balance spec into less Olwkin Frenzy and more mana talents, my mana in my old gear in any case was an absolute disaster and Innervate didn't help one bit, I was often finding myself OOM right after Phase 2 had started. So please don't frown upon that. I haven't tested with my new gear, as I've just gotten it one hour ago.

    I did overdo it a bit, because even the poison had loads of difficulties outdraining my regen on Yogg. x.x Bright side, my innervates were for the healers. =)

    What would you suggest is an ideal mana regen situation as a moonkin? One where I have to Innervate myself (or isn't that even needed when you have good gear anymore), or one where you can innervate others? Having mana issues is alien to me as resto druid and warlock. O.o


    Edit: Armorylink http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...nazzar&n=Llynn

    Edit2: Don't lol at the horrible gemming, my moonkinspec and gear started out as something for random fun, I never expected I had to raid with it, it came rather unexpected. I always heal, but getting our new priest forced me into this new role. =) I will regem properly of course.

    Edit3: Seems Armory isn't updating properly, rest assured, everything's enchanted. :/

  8. #8
    Deleted

    Re: So I'm an owl, but is my dps really supposed to be this random? (Yogg10)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque
    Diseases, magic and poison debuffs were hardly an issue, running with a disc priest helped a lot
    This could be a major factor. I never dispel. Ever. I think i can count on one molested hand, how many times i have dispelled in raids in my time as a moonkin. If i see a black magic on myself, i pop an abolish poison on myself, but thats it. Our healers can usually cover everything. If you spend a lot of time dispelling in some fights, that could have a serious impact on your DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque
    The real issue for me was the horrid luck with the RNG, having Eclipse proc right as stuff died.

    On the kill I was third on damage with 3.9k dps (mostly because 2 of the dps who would have outdps'd me were dead x.x). With the emblems I was able to buy T8.5 stuff for my balance spec and am now on 2201 spellpower, 16% crit (low?), and 460 haste.
    Yes, your crit is quite low, but that is to be expected. If you can free up the 60 haste, and get some crit instead, that would help you loads (crit are worth more than haste after 400 haste). Also, see if you can get the emblem idol if possible - thats a steady 4% crit right there. Your armory currently shows a resto idol.

    You can't really claim to be third on DPS, when two others were dead - perhaps they were above you before they died. Ofcourse, dead DPS dont do any damage, but im sure you get my drift

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque
    On a sidenote, I respecced my balance spec into less Olwkin Frenzy and more mana talents, my mana in my old gear in any case was an absolute disaster and Innervate didn't help one bit, I was often finding myself OOM right after Phase 2 had started. So please don't frown upon that. I haven't tested with my new gear, as I've just gotten it one hour ago.

    What would you suggest is an ideal mana regen situation as a moonkin? One where I have to Innervate myself (or isn't that even needed when you have good gear anymore), or one where you can innervate others? Having mana issues is alien to me as resto druid and warlock. O.o
    You have two points in dreamstate - those are largely wasted, because that talent is very, very weak. If you want to have those points in mana regen, then move them to intensity.

    I hardly ever have to innervate myself - usually only if im throwing up a lot of dots. In fact, i end many fights on 80%+ mana, so my innervates are free to go to healers or people that died and got a ress - thats how i like it. When mana is less of a problem for me, i am very happy. I am still running with a single point in intensity, though.

    You have two points in Subtlety - they are a complete waste. The only fight where your dots are getting dispelled are on faction champions, and even then, 20% resist is not going to make a difference. Put those points into furor instead - that gives you some more crit and SP. 4% more int does make a difference, where Subtlety does not.

    As your crit increases, it will be a lot easier to get eclipses up. Fully raid buffed, with all talents included, i have 40-45% chance to crit with starfire and wrath (this is in a 25 man group with every debuff on the target, ofcourse), and eclipse is much less of a headache then.

    If you want to optimize yourself a bit, get the addon Wise Eclipse. It gave me quite a noticable increase in DPS

  9. #9
    Deleted

    Re: So I'm an owl, but is my dps really supposed to be this random? (Yogg10)

    ok first off I apologise for any harshness that I might put out in this post I'm a passionate druid and am only trying to help.

    First thing I noticed is green gems ? Seriously !? First thing you should fix , also you're crit is extremely low , you're gear isn't bad per say but it's not that good or optimised for a boomkin either. ( I know you mention don't lol at the gems but it is the first step to increasing DPS).

    I'll link my armory for just so you can take a quick look at what sort of setup I have ( http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...land&n=Poldara ) , yogg is in around 5.5k DPS(around 5k in 10man) depending on what role I have to play during the fight, stand still and nuke fights I can get up and in around 7k (close to the same in 10 man 6.5+) if I'm lucky with procs. Problem is if you want more eclipes you want more crit, (you're crit is lacking quite a bit so aim for upgrades with crit)
    I start off with FF,ISS,MF then wrath till eclipse then SF etc... (I know I'm over hit cap'd at the moment , got a few pieces I need to replace). Being honest you want SF eclipse and you want to get as many SF's in there as you can, so do spam that wrath.

    Basically you need more crit 20% out of moonkin form is what I've found to work. What's funny is you're in a similar situation as me, I've been resto pretty much my full resto druid career but when called on I needed to go moonkin main things I focused on was hit cap haste cap ( which you both have so good start ) SP will give you the biggest DPS increase after that the more the merrier to be honest (which I get the feeling you already know).

    The good news is ur 44 over haste cap with a shammy (I love haste more then anything btw) but you might benefit (If you always have a shammy in your group) by getting rid of your haste ring and replacing it with a ring with a lot of crit. (firestorm / new triumph) .

    Regen shouldn't be a problem at all on any boss fights , I can give my innervate to a healer in every fight .. in fact unless I'm severly put out of my rotation I barely lose mana at all. You're spec is perfect imo (mainly cause it's the spec I use hehe).

    So.. in summary; You'd need more crit , I wouldn't expect a huge DPS increase unless you were fully gem'd (yes it's expensive but get it done) and enchanted. Also alot of your gear (idols and things would need to change). You know most of this though so just keep aiming for upgrades, with your gear at the level it is now I wouldn't be expecting to see huge DPS numbers , to answer ur first post , you're DPS on yogg shouldn't change too much at all and should stable out once you're used to the moving and when to DPS.

    Hope it helped.

  10. #10

    Re: So I'm an owl, but is my dps really supposed to be this random? (Yogg10)

    Thanks for your reply.

    Again, about the gems. My main is a warlock, my druid my alt, feral tanking is my mainspec, resto is my offspec, due to medical issues I can no longer tank, therefore I went moonkin for the heck of it. This means moonkin is my alt's off-off spec. Never having played Balance in my life before and wanting to try it for like one afternoon in a few heroics, it didn't even cross my mind to spend tons on a spec I'd probably not even keep or play seriously. Gems on my realm come either in epics, or in those I bought, the inbetween versions are hard to come by. In any event, I quickly gemmed and enchanted, practiced my rotations, did a few heroics. When I say I have no experience as moonkin, I really mean I have none.

    That is why. There is no need to tell me how important gems and enchants are, because I know, I raid high end, I know the importance of maximizing dps. I KNOW that. This topic was also never about my dps, this topic was about the random dps on a Yogg fight.

    Seeing as Yogg is pretty much the *only* raid boss I have done as moonkin aside from Grobbulus and Gluth - I am NOT kidding you, I have only raided 3 bosses as Balance ever in my life - I was wondering if this is normal as a moonkin. Recalling my past experiences in my high end guilds on my lock, I could not remember our moonkins having such random and variable dps on our numerous progress fights back in Ulduar's early release days. However, our guild was in dire need of a caster and that is how I ended up doing the moonkin thing on Yogg. I was never called upon because I was the one of those leading the raid, so it was all a last minute thing.

    It was never planned. For our second progress night, where we did the kill, I was hoping I'd be resto again, but I was wrong. I was staring at my keyboard a lot wondering what buttons to press next again. On phase 3 I was so excited we finally made it that far and 8 people were alive instead of the usual 2, I completely forgot I had Eclipse to watch out for, instead I spammed Wrath occasionally wondering where the heck my Conflagrate button was for a good amount of time.

    My dps will improve once I have some better gear (thus better crit), and proper gems, and when I know what the heck I'm doing, when I can react without thinking twice on situations. When I know when to moonfire, when not to, when I know what my limits are. The fact of the matter is that in the end I'm a warlock, then a feral, then a resto, and only then an owl, especially experience-wise, so I think I should be forgiven having picked cheap ass gems off AH for one afternoon of dummyfailing.


    So far for my defense on the matter. I'm a passionate warlock, as well as a passionate feral (and resto) like you are a passionate druid and I too can get over excited about people failing on their gear, so I take no offense. Gold is never an issue for gems or enchants for toons I love to play for me, what is an issue is whether or not I'm going to like playing an owl. I still don't know. If this RNG as described in my OP is considered normal on a lot of fights, I might not like it, because then in the end skill is measured in having loads of luck and that's not really interesting. This is effectively what my post was about.

    About getting new and better gear, I'll pass dps gear for any caster of our guild unless we suddenly are drowning in healers. I know I need better gear, I was lucky to have T7 tokens at all in my bank after badgeruns, but I'd feel horrid for needing off-offspec while our casters need the loot as well. All I can aim for right now is some Naxx25 pug stuff and badge rewards.


    Well, with our spec we're sure to never run out of mana. I'll test some more if I have a chance in raid situations but for that Yogg progress I had so much mana, never looked once to my manabar, it was insane. I think having Owlkin Frenzy in a lot of raid situations can be beneficial to my (our) dps, considering the amount of raiddamage often present. Having no mana sucks for dps, but having too much mana and skipping talents that can be a potential increase to your dps sucks as well. This, however, is a detail I'll need extensive testing on and that's only possible if I'm going to be a fulltime owl.

    In any event, thanks for taking the time to check out my armory and post here.

    Edit: About the idol, I haven't got the badges right now to get them (maybe, maybe, have them tomorrow), which one would you currently suggest, as I have no idea which idol available right now would be the best. The Conquest idol seems nice especially when you have 4T8, but I'm not getting that ever, seeing as my resto and feral spec would get priority. Is it still nice without the bonus, and would getting the Conquest idol influence the way I rotate Insect Swarm (as far as I know from having checked EJ and guides, Insect Swarm is only refreshed between eclipses)?

  11. #11
    Deleted

    Re: So I'm an owl, but is my dps really supposed to be this random? (Yogg10)

    well to answer ur main question , no :P Your DPS should be pretty high and pretty consistant on yogg. At all stages during the fight. :P It's a great fight for ranged , even SPriests gain quite a lot there DPS wise. It's gunna depend on what your doing though . Like sum1 previously mentioned you shouldn't REALLY need to be dispelling / de-poison if you are get better healers :P

  12. #12

    Re: So I'm an owl, but is my dps really supposed to be this random? (Yogg10)

    Well, grats on the kill

  13. #13
    Deleted

    Re: So I'm an owl, but is my dps really supposed to be this random? (Yogg10)

    Did you ever stop to consider if you should move maul to a different key? :P Heck, im usually against macros that automaticly use maul aswell, but in this case i would probably suggest it :P

  14. #14
    Deleted

    Re: So I'm an owl, but is my dps really supposed to be this random? (Yogg10)

    And yeh most of the time u refresh ur dots between eclipses or during moving but it's rare that I actually have downtime between eclipses now so that is starting to become an issue for keeping up dots,

    -I know it's a lil offthread but while I think of it anyone actually have a suggestion for that? I'm pretty much chaining eclipses now to the point where I rarely get downtime between eclipses so I've been refreshing my dots just at the end of my wrath eclipse so I have my MF etc.. up for SF eclipse. Any ideas or anyone else getting this ?

  15. #15
    Deleted

    Re: So I'm an owl, but is my dps really supposed to be this random? (Yogg10)

    Quote Originally Posted by Poldara
    And yeh most of the time u refresh ur dots between eclipses or during moving but it's rare that I actually have downtime between eclipses now so that is starting to become an issue for keeping up dots,

    -I know it's a lil offthread but while I think of it anyone actually have a suggestion for that? I'm pretty much chaining eclipses now to the point where I rarely get downtime between eclipses so I've been refreshing my dots just at the end of my wrath eclipse so I have my MF etc.. up for SF eclipse. Any ideas or anyone else getting this ?
    Im assuming you have 2pt9:

    Forget about IS unless you have to move, refresh MF whenever it falls off, unless you are halfway through a lunar eclipse (ei. refresh whenever you need to during solar eclipse).

  16. #16
    Deleted

    Re: So I'm an owl, but is my dps really supposed to be this random? (Yogg10)

    Yeh that's what I'm doing at the moment pretty much , was just wondering if anyone was dealing with it differently, I don't like wasting eclipse time with refreshing dots (unless I wont make a cast in what time is left).
    /cheers

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