Vanish is getting fixed!

[gobtol]

No, really.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/2013...xcuses-gc.html

I imagine the change will be something like a half-second immunity when you vanish. Hopefully the change won't be overpowered and thus end up being not implemented. I'm more concerned about the bug where you cloak right as a spell is cast (like corruption, moonfire) and not only is it not removed, but you miss out on the 90% resist chance.

[Nixia]

We have a change for Vanish in place for 3.3. You will get to try it out soon (tm). As promised, if it proves a significant buff to rogues, we may have to compensate elsewhere. Just because it hasn't worked as intended doesn't mean it will be balanced when it does.

[Cipsy]

Oh wow, *happy*! Just curious on how they will fix it

[Crazhr]

Well im pretty sure the "fix" is just going to be what alot of blues have already talked about 1sec of 100% sure stealth that cant be broken. This is going to fix alot of melee problems like autoattack out of vanish but most of this can already be fixed with the macro.

Well lets just see what they come up with it would not be the first time blizz pull a bunny out of the hat and a useable vanish would be nice.

:S Also I keep getting shocked from the comments people post at mmo, this is maybe abit silly since I have seen the same flamming for the past 2-3 years but it still strikes me as odd that somebody can care so much about the game that they can talk about hating other players for playing a part of the game. Are the average wow player realy that ignorant and self centeret that they can begin to hate another human being and even being smug because other players have to play with a bug. Well I guess im just happy my life is not dependant on the work of a company because then you would realy be a quite sad person.

[gobtol]

People that have never played a rogue have no idea whether vanish works or not. Usually it will work if you time it properly, but it's not uncommon at all to simply break for no reason at all. There won't even be anything in your combat log saying that you vanished, but it will be on CD and you won't be in stealth. That being said, a lot of rogues will try to vanish while on top of a ret pally or warrior, then wonder why they got divine stormed or piercing howled out half a second later. You can definitely increase the effectiveness of vanish by timing it properly, but it's still a broken ability.

Let's see it that way:
Blizzard wanted locks to be clothie tanks in PVP. It's such a fail idea, but blizzard keeps pushing it even now.
Will they ever change it? No. Locks have fallen to the bottom of PVP, being only usefull when spam healed or when a lock's opponent is realy bad, and that after a lot of gear farming. Do you see any lock crying on the forums?
No, we just rerolled another class or dumped our locks completely and stopped the QQ.

Locks cry on the forums all the time, much like you're doing right now. Locks are doing fine in PvP, and they dominate 8 of the 9 other classes. Just because they're not able to drain tank 3 or 4 people like the did in s2, it doesn't mean they're not balanced.

[Woony]

Locks have a lot of problems with their design and mechanics (pets being zerged, locks getting zerged by meeles, not being able to clothtank, even if you are designed for it, dots doing crap damage and being spam dispelled etc., but rogues have, too (vanish being broken, outdated cooldown system, pigeonhold into mut/prep, no surv. when cds are gone etc.) (I play both, warlock and rogue)

But saying, rogues are the only class which Blizzard hates and which gets fucked by blizzard every time is just stupid. Actually they are doing quite well, beside vanish bug, and low surv. after cds.

[Voij]

But saying, rogues are the only class which Blizzard hates and which gets fucked by blizzard every time is just stupid. Actually they are doing quite well, beside vanish bug, and low surv. after cds.

I think that's other classes qqing because they think that Rogues are qqing like that.
No good Rogue actually thinks we're getting nerf after nerf, neither do good Rogues think we're OP/UP. We're actually quite well balanced, now that FoK has been nerfed slightly.

Problem with that is: We're not balanced for 1on1/World-PvP/BGs, we're balanced for 2's and 3's. (A little weak when it comes to 5's)

We die fast outside of CDs, we are hard to kill with our CDs, we can kill others due to our MS-effect, we don't do ridiculous amounts of damage[because we have an MS effect], we can't heal ourselves but can CC someone for some time so we can bandage.
Also, our CCs are strong and weak at the same time, Sap doesn't work if the target is in combat, Blind has a 2min CD and both break on damage.
We also have stuns, no downpoint to this. [Except maybe for the fact that we need CP for KS]


So yeah, Rogues are balanced quite well. Unfortunately, though, that factors in the Vanish-Bugs aswell, so once they're fixxed we might need to be toned down a little again.

[Blueriku]

Nice joke there, next you will say they need buffs.

Do you play a rogue? I don't know about u but i feel as a rogue player that rogue's currently are mostly balanced besides, the fact that the sub tree needs a ass ton of work or a revamp would be nice. that and pvp wise we are pigeon holed in prep/mut spec and pve wise we have decent option to chose from.

The blue pose does seem like blizz said " hey lets fix vanish but, unnecessarily nerf rogues for no reason" but i think rogues are fine and also im quite interested in the new vanish fix, especially if they really do implement the immunity idea. rogues getting nerfed right now is not necessary since we are pretty close to balanced (even though we still need a lot of work) even if the vanish fix goes through.

[Flaw]

Just do to vanish what they recently did to mage invis, problem solved.

[Oystersauce]

I think that's other classes qqing because they think that Rogues are qqing like that.
No good Rogue actually thinks we're getting nerf after nerf, neither do good Rogues think we're OP/UP. We're actually quite well balanced, now that FoK has been nerfed slightly.

Problem with that is: We're not balanced for 1on1/World-PvP/BGs, we're balanced for 2's and 3's. (A little weak when it comes to 5's)

We die fast outside of CDs, we are hard to kill with our CDs, we can kill others due to our MS-effect, we don't do ridiculous amounts of damage[because we have an MS effect], we can't heal ourselves but can CC someone for some time so we can bandage.
Also, our CCs are strong and weak at the same time, Sap doesn't work if the target is in combat, Blind has a 2min CD and both break on damage.
We also have stuns, no downpoint to this. [Except maybe for the fact that we need CP for KS]


So yeah, Rogues are balanced quite well. Unfortunately, though, that factors in the Vanish-Bugs aswell, so once they're fixxed we might need to be toned down a little again.

What does it mean when you say Rogues are balanced quite well? You give a litany of Rogue abilities without any kind of analysis of how they interact with other classes and spec combinations (aside from a brief mention of healing - and I think you'd find some people disagreeing with the idea that Rogue damage is not ridiculous). When you say that Rogues are balanced, what is it that they are balanced against?

I put it to you that when you say "balanced" you mean "powerful". You don't feel unduly underpowered against a wide range of opponents, so the class feels well-rounded in most situations. Most classes are not like this, most of them are not "balanced". And if everything is underpowered compared to Rogues, then Rogues also cannot be "balanced".

I'm very wary of anyone claiming that a favoured class is "balanced". That word only has meaning in relation to other classes / specs - the majority of them have to be balanced relative to each other before you can say that any one of them is balanced.

[Deleted]

To all the rogue haters:
I play a rogue in PvP, yes. It's not my main, no.
I also PvP as DK, Resto Druid, and Enh Shaman.

A rogue is a very cooldown-dependant class in 1v1.
If a rogue pops all his cooldowns in one 1v1 duel, they will almost always win.
If you catch a rogue without cooldowns in a BG, said rogue is dead.
In Arenas, rogues do quite a lot of damage, but once their initial energy pool is dried out, they either do sustained damage (which is definitely lower than the sustained damage of a Mage, 'lock or Elemental Shaman) or wait for their 130 energy to re-pool to release another bursty combination.

Rogues are quite fine right now. What might need a nerf is rogues in PvE gear and with PvE combat specs one-shotting people with 1.2k resilience.

[Plawsky]

People need to learn that PvP is not the same thing as ganking. Rogues are incredibly overpowered when it comes to 1 on 1 world pvp because we can fight on our own terms. If we can catch you while questing and you're a) at low health or mana b) not wearing your trinket c) busy fighting a group of NPCs or d) all of the above, you will die. People get ganked by rogues more than any other class, so they assume rogues are the best at PvP.

However, those people have probably never been into an arena or a good BG to realize what PvP is like when everyone is wearing their PvP gear and ready for a fight. Rogues are not nearly as OP as we used to be, and it's not a bad thing to want one of our key abilities to work properly. When a hunter's pet can continue following you and subsequently break you out of stealth right after a vanish - that's NOT working as intended.

Stop QQing just because we'll be getting a slight buff. In the long run, this isn't really going to make us any OP. If you can't beat a rogue after the vanish fix, you couldn't beat one before it.

[Deleted]

With overkill, 0->130 takes 10 seconds.
Without overkill, 0->130 takes 13 seconds.

With overkill
13 energy per second.
130/13 = 10

Without overkill
10 energy per second.
130/10 = 13

10 seconds are an eternity in PvP.

[Nest]

About a damn time. Gonna migrate my Rogue and start playing on it again.

[Deathflid]

Rogues are fine, survive the first CS-KS without a cooldown, force a vanish, they run out of cooldowns before you after that, simple numbers game, pretty much every class can shut a rogue down for at least 1/2 of a kidney shot in the opening burst, and 1 DPS is easy pie, if you get lucky, the rogue blows its trinket to keep up the burst, you switch the CC to the other DPS and you can force external cooldowns on the rogue the next time he pops up.

rogues are extremely OP for the first 45s-2m of a game that can last much MUCH longer than that, after which they are easyer kills than a 0 res ret with bubble burst.

[Clarkis2001]

People need to learn that PvP is not the same thing as ganking. Rogues are incredibly overpowered when it comes to 1 on 1 world pvp because we can fight on our own terms. If we can catch you while questing and you're a) at low health or mana b) not wearing your trinket c) busy fighting a group of NPCs or d) all of the above, you will die. People get ganked by rogues more than any other class, so they assume rogues are the best at PvP.

However, those people have probably never been into an arena or a good BG to realize what PvP is like when everyone is wearing their PvP gear and ready for a fight. Rogues are not nearly as OP as we used to be, and it's not a bad thing to want one of our key abilities to work properly. When a hunter's pet can continue following you and subsequently break you out of stealth right after a vanish - that's NOT working as intended.

Stop QQing just because we'll be getting a slight buff. In the long run, this isn't really going to make us any OP. If you can't beat a rogue after the vanish fix, you couldn't beat one before it.

I disagree with this. I play a Warlock and the only way I can win against a Rogue is if I can somehow get them out of a badly-timed Vanish (i.e. Seduction/DoT application & tick due to server lag). Even with these abilities it's nearly impossible to down a Rogue. And if it's a well-timed Vanish then I'm just screwed.

Is Blizzard fixing server lag? No. But this "bug fix" will really allow Rogues to dominate more than people are realizing. Yes I understand it's a bug fix rather than a buff but just wait and see what happens. This will have far reaching consequences if it goes live. =/ Blizzard even stated Rogues are doing very well in PvP and PvE with this issue so then how will fixing it not make them over the top?

[K4ge]

@above me
That is entirely your own fault. A good destruction lock (such as zukuu, check his guides) will beat rogues way more than half of duels.

[Nest]

@above me
That is entirely your own fault. A good destruction lock (such as zukuu, check his guides) will beat rogues way more than half of duels.

Good Rogue > Good Warlock tho.

[K4ge]

Good Rogue > Good Warlock tho.

No. The vengeful/brutal/could-have-been-deadly glad rogue from my guild consistently loses to some of our best warlocks.

[Clarkis2001]

@above me
That is entirely your own fault. A good destruction lock (such as zukuu, check his guides) will beat rogues way more than half of duels.

You're an Undead Rogue. I have no pity to you if you lose to Warlocks because that's laughable. You have a Racial and Trinket to get out of our CC abilities so you should never lose save to the most geared and experienced Warlocks in the game.

And it's not my fault. You're built around massive damage and stuns however you also have far too many outs. People say Rogues are easy to kill if you survive their first (and some are forgetting the reset option) and second opening bursts. Well grats to the Warriors, Paladins and DKs who can do that with ease. Most classes are not so fortunate.

Lastly, before someone says it, I don't mind losing to any class if it's there's a fair chance for each player. That's not the case here and Vanish will only exemplify this issue. That's the only real problem I have with the class. That and the fact that Horde racials are far too PvP oriented. WTB Cataclysm racial-redos pronto plz.