1. #1

    How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    With the T9 set bonus upon us I think it is time i better understood this new part of our dps.

    Example Senario:
    A paladin gets 5 stacks of vengeance on the target with not critical hits so far (unlucky I know), then he pops wings and lands a 12k judgement which procs righteous vengeance.

    The next GCD is a critiscal hit Crusader Strike for 5.5k, this refreshes the Righteous Vengeance duration.



    My question is, is the Righteous Vengeance DoT still doing damage based upon the judgment (%30 of 12k over 8 sec) with the crusader strike mearly refreshing the DoT duration (think shadow word pain)?

    Or is the new righteous vengeance DoT applied by the crusader strike doing damage only based upon the 5.5k crit that landed? and would this effect be carried over to ever new crit you get on the boss that procs righteous vengeance?

  2. #2

    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    it will refresh your dot sir, it should take the dmg from judgement and refresh your dot.

  3. #3
    Pit Lord iktankniet's Avatar
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    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    you have to see it as 3 versions of RV.

    judgement crit, CS crit and DS crit.

    these 3 do stack and each overlaps another.

    lets presume you critted with the 3 attacks (judgement, CS, DS)

    each line represents how long the dot is on the target. because each attack has gcd in between, it starts a bit later.

    judgement ----------------------
    CS ----------------------
    DS ----------------------

    this is how it works. you see 3 lines, each separate for an attack. attacks dont refresh, but add on the current dot.

    CS has a 4sec cd. if you crit twice in a row, the dot makes another application of CS. (not 100% sure on this)
    (4 seconds)
    CS ----------|------------
    CS2 ----------------------

    so, when you have all attacks crit, and CS twice, it will look something like this:

    CS---------------------- (0 sec)
    judge ---------------------- (1.5sec)
    DS ---------------------- (3 sec)
    CS2 ---------------------- (4.5sec)

    if any1 knows im wrong, correct me.

  4. #4

    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    See it like this:
    RV increases your Critical Strike damage by 30% and by 30% (1+crit chance) with t9 2p.

    The actual math behind this is a little complicated, but as long as the target lats 8 seconds after the last tick of RV has been applied it works like this.
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  5. #5
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    Quote Originally Posted by iktankniet
    you have to see it as 3 versions of RV.

    judgement crit, CS crit and DS crit.

    these 3 do stack and each overlaps another.

    lets presume you critted with the 3 attacks (judgement, CS, DS)

    each line represents how long the dot is on the target. because each attack has gcd in between, it starts a bit later.

    judgement ----------------------
    CS ----------------------
    DS ----------------------

    this is how it works. you see 3 lines, each separate for an attack. attacks dont refresh, but add on the current dot.

    CS has a 4sec cd. if you crit twice in a row, the dot makes another application of CS. (not 100% sure on this)
    (4 seconds)
    CS ----------|------------
    CS2 ----------------------

    so, when you have all attacks crit, and CS twice, it will look something like this:

    CS---------------------- (0 sec)
    judge ---------------------- (1.5sec)
    DS ---------------------- (3 sec)
    CS2 ---------------------- (4.5sec)

    if any1 knows im wrong, correct me.
    ^^ This is exactly how I understood the workings of this ability. I believe I have seen a nearly identical display of this ability back in early Naxx.

    Nice work, Ik

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  6. #6

    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    Everyone else already nicely explained the duration (better than I could).

    To be clear, it is my understanding that the total damage is based on all of your crits.

    Assuming my understanding here is correct, in your example you crit with Judgement for 12k, followed by a 5.5k crit one global cooldown later. The Judgement would proc 3.6k damage from Righteous Vengeance, while the Crusader Strike crit would proc 1650 damage through righteous vengeance.

    Let's assume that for some reason, your Crusader strike came just over 2 seconds after the judgement.

    -Judgement crits, does 12k damage. Righteous Vengeance procs, 8 sec duration, 4 ticks. Total damage from this proc is 3.6k, so each tick is 900 damage.
    -2 seconds later, first tick of 900 damage happens. The dot has now done 900 damage, of the total 3.6k; that means there is 2700 damage left.
    -Immediately thereafter, Crusader Strike crits for 5.5k. This procs a 1650 damage righteous vengeance. We had 2700 damage left on the old one, so combining those two yields a total value of 4350 damage. The duration is refreshed, so over the next 8 seconds the enemy will take 4350 damage, in 4 ticks of 1087.5.


    In other words, the duration refreshes, but the damage is unchanged; you don't lose damage by refreshing the dot, nor do you gain any; it just might take a while to actually finish the DoT, if you keep critting :-p

    (If I am in error on any of this, feel free to correct me, while using any insults you feel appropriate. "Idiot" would be most appropriate, but "noob" could work, as could many others. Be creative ^_^ )

  7. #7

    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    Your example states you do gain damage, but afterwards you said it doesn't.

    Essentially, the crit damage for the crusader strike is added to whatever is remaining of the DoT.

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Prentice's Avatar
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    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    Its not the easiest thing to understand but darkwarrior42's explanation is correct. RV is a 4 layered DoT. Try not to think about it in its cumulative form. It'd be easier to understand if you separate it out. Assuming that every one of your DoT stacking abilities crit, your line will look something like this.

    (This isn't necessarily your rotation but rather a fragment of your attack sequence during a fight.)

    CS
    --------------
    Judge
    --------------
    DS
    --------------
    CS
    --------------

    Because of the short CD of CS, it can essentially be 2 parts of your RV DoT if two consecutive attacks crit. Judgement and DS each have CDs equal to or greater than the duration of the RV DoT.

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  9. #9

    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptorg
    Your example states you do gain damage, but afterwards you said it doesn't.
    I think that comment was about that one :

    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42
    In other words, the duration refreshes, but the damage is unchanged; you don't lose damage by refreshing the dot, nor do you gain any; it just might take a while to actually finish the DoT, if you keep critting :-p
    So let me try to make it more clear.
    What happens:
    An additional crit will increase the overall damage done by the RV. (from 2700 to 4350 as in the example)
    An additional crit will reset the duration of the RV. (from 3 ticks left to 4 ticks left)
    The damage per tick is recalculated (from 900 to 1087.5 in the example but it might as well go down)

    Following after this:
    you don't lose damage by refreshing the dot
    Means: the damage per tick _can_ decrease but the overall damage will _always_ increase.

    nor do you gain any
    Means: the overall damage will always stay the same no matter how long you keep your stack up .
    And it's not like some believe that refreshing the dot will increase the damage done to oblivion (crit -> 200 tick , next crit -> 400 tick next crit -> 600 tick.....until it drops of and you start with 0)

    it just might take a while to actually finish the DoT, if you keep critting :-p
    This would be an issue if 1 crit per 2 sec would be possible, because then the duration always refreshes before the tick happens it'll never decrease, thus result in an incredibly high tick, that doesn't happen, because it is refreshed before the tick. (see Fury warriors @ Loatheb).
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    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  10. #10
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    It should also be noted that your chance to apply a crit RV on each CS, DS, or Judgement crit, given the following:

    X% Melee Chance to Crit
    Hit capped
    Expertise capped
    Rank 3/3 Fanaticism

    is equal to the following equations:

    For CS/DS: X*(4+X)
    For Judgement: (18+X)*(4+X)

    Finally, it should be noted that even if you crit 100% of the time with CS, DS, and Judgement, the pool damage for RV will eventually stop growing an meet ends at a balancing point equal to 30% of your average crit damage. Malleus from EJ points it in a nice simple context:

    Quote Originally Posted by Malleus
    Quote Originally Posted by zamm
    If RV were to never drop off then the available RV pool would keep increasing, and the ticks would be bigger
    No, it wouldn't. It will cap out at an amount where the amount you can add to it within the duration of a tick is equal to one tick.

    RV ticks 4 times over 8 seconds for 25% of its pool on each tick. For simplicity of maths, let's say that between each tick we always add 4000 to the pool. Here are two sample pools: one where we are establishing the pool, and another where we've built a bigger than normal pool using damage increasing effects that have now worn off:

    S _Pool _Tick | S _Pool _Tick
    02 00000 | 02 20000
    04 04000 0 | 04 19000 5000
    06 07000 1000 | 06 18250 4750
    08 09250 1750 | 08 17688 4563
    10 10938 2313 | 10 17266 4422
    12 12203 2734 | 12 16949 4316
    14 13152 3051 | 14 16712 4237
    16 13864 3288 | 16 16534 4178
    18 14398 3466 | 18 16400 4133
    20 14799 3600 | 20 16300 4100
    22 15099 3700 | 22 16225 4075
    24 15324 3775 | 24 16169 4056
    26 15493 3831 | 26 16127 4042
    28 15620 3873 | 28 16095 4032
    30 15715 3905 | 30 16071 4024
    32 15786 3929 | 32 16053 4018
    34 15840 3947 | 34 16040 4013
    36 15880 3960 | 36 16030 4010
    38 15910 3970 | 38 16023 4008
    40 15932 3977 | 40 16017 4006
    42 15949 3983 | 42 16013 4004
    44 15962 3987 | 44 16010 4003
    46 15971 3990 | 46 16007 4002
    48 15979 3993 | 48 16005 4002
    50 15984 3995 | 50 16004 4001
    52 15988 3996 | 52 16003 4001
    54 15991 3997 | 54 16002 4001
    56 15993 3998 | 56 16002 4001
    58 15995 3998 | 58 16001 4000
    60 15996 3999 | 60 16001 4000



    As you can see, the ticks inevitably rise or fall to the point where RV ticks for the same 4000 we are adding.

    In real situations RV will never tend to a precisely fixed amount of damage due to our crits not being fixed, but over an extended series the average tick of RV will be no higher than 30% of our average crit damage. (The actual point will be a little lower, as we have to build up the pool and the vagaries of luck say we won't always be able to refresh RV between ticks.)

    This is where 2pc T9 comes in. To get the most out of it, we have to stay at the equilibrium point at all times when we are not using CDs to go above it. To continue with the simplified example: if we miss a refresh, the pool will drop to 8000 after the next tick then restore to 12000 with the next crit. That means the tick following will only be for 3000, plus there will be further reductions to following ticks until equilibrium is restored. Each one of those ticks that crits represents a loss of DPS from what we would get if we maintained equilibrium throughout.

  11. #11
    Warchief Eurytos's Avatar
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    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    Simple? Lol. I think I understand it, but I certainly wouldn't call it simple.
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  12. #12

    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    Thank you for the in depth explanations.

    The post from darkwarrior helps explain to me why we can get such large righteous vengeance crits on gimmicky fights as well (which was something that in the past had baffled me).

  13. #13
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurytos
    Simple? Lol. I think I understand it, but I certainly wouldn't call it simple.
    Okay the TLU (don't understand) version-

    RV's damage will almost always be equal to 30% of your average Crit damage regardless of "spikes" caused by mechanics (I.E. trinkets, temporary buffs, etc).

  14. #14
    Warchief Eurytos's Avatar
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    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronark
    Okay the TLU (don't understand) version-

    RV's damage will almost always be equal to 30% of your average Crit damage regardless of "spikes" caused by mechanics (I.E. trinkets, temporary buffs, etc).
    Yep, thats about all I took from all that maths and stuff. Thx man.

    I never thought I'd be doing so much math while playing a video game. Tricky bastards at Blizz, always trying to make us think about stuff. Mario Kart never had this much math. :P
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  15. #15
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurytos
    Yep, thats about all I took from all that maths and stuff. Thx man.

    I never thought I'd be doing so much math while playing a video game. Tricky bastards at Blizz, always trying to make us think about stuff. Mario Kart never had this much math. :P
    I get bored between classes (like now) and do theorycrafting every now and then: In MKR you still had to count points in a tournament branch (I.E. If you came in at least 3rd place, you could win the tournament no matter who got first or second).

  16. #16
    Warchief Eurytos's Avatar
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    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronark
    I get bored between classes (like now) and do theorycrafting every now and then: In MKR you still had to count points in a tournament branch (I.E. If you came in at least 3rd place, you could win the tournament no matter who got first or second).
    Your killing me, Ron. Though, to your point on MKR, I always came in first, even if I didn't have to. Rainbow Road was always a bitch.
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  17. #17
    Immortal Ronark's Avatar
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    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurytos
    Your killing me, Ron. Though, to your point on MKR, I always came in first, even if I didn't have to. Rainbow Road was always a bitch.
    Just use Toad or Yoshi and you are fine :P

  18. #18
    Warchief Eurytos's Avatar
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    Re: How exactly does Righteous Vengeance work?

    Yoshi was the SHIZZZZ!!
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