disc haste

[Athelaz]

ive heard people say i have too much some say not enough im at 12.96% unbuffed what do u guys think?

[Menotyou]

It is all about your play style. There are very few concrete rules for disc healing. What it all boils down to is as long as people are alive at the end of the battle, what does it matter if your haste is at 12.96% or 2.96?

Chocolate, vanillia, strawberry... it is all a matter of what you prefer.

[-Ethos-]

ive heard people say i have too much some say not enough im at 12.96% unbuffed what do u guys think?

You're at the perfect level of haste, you dont have too much over the "cap" but you dont have too little. I myself try to keep around/above 400 haste which is where you are.

[Athelaz]

yea i try to keep as close to 35% crit as i can to balance a bit i didnt think needed that much more haste not with borrowed time up all the time.

[Zka]

When PWS spamming in a raid: you barely need any haste, 6-12% depending on support. 400 haste rating was fine for me.

When strictly tank healing (Algalon and maybe some other hard modes): any amount of haste is useful as borrowed time will not be active most of the time.

[Tiggye]

i got 681 hasterating and reach my 1sek flashheal in raids (with owl/shaman) and i have to say that im fine with it =)
I usually play with Greater Heal (Divine Fury and Improved Healing are necessary) and ofc flashs + pw:s in situations i have to heal up raidmembers.
I played with that style lately in Ulduar and through ToC25 - including all hardmodes + anub down and i like it.
Never got any problems with mana and there was often more flexibility with GHs then without haste and only FH + Penance spam.

I think after divine illumination nerf @ paladins we are able to play more with such a powerful ability as GH is.
So you probably have to get more haste, then less if you get along with your mana and love your GHs.

If you like it to play ONLY with PW:s Spam + FHs/PoM then stay at the ~11% "softcap" (with owl/ret + Wrath of Air-Totem in your raid)

[Zeuq]

I just posted this in another thread, but what the hell. I refer to the Haste "soft cap" for Discipline as when you're able to get a fifth GCD in between Penance Cooldowns; this occurs at ~19% Haste. I refer to the Haste "hard cap" as when the Borrowed Time buff and your Haste gets your GCD to 1s which is something you'll encounter when spamming PWS on the raid; this occurs at 25% Haste. I consider this a "hard cap" because you already won't get more tank throughput, and if you are on the raid, you will almost never be casting Flash Heal on them, so while you may occassionally see some benefit beyond 25%, it's so small that it's essentially wasted itemization.

You get 6% Haste from the Enlightenment talent, 3% Haste from a Ret Pally or Moonkin, and 5% Haste from an Elemental Shaman; thus, assuming proper spec and full raid buffs you're aiming for 5% Haste for the "soft cap" and 11% Haste for the "hard cap".

That said, I don't think going a little over is necessarily a bad thing because latency and brain lag will affect your healing to some extent. I will say, however, that at 12.96%, you're almost 2% over which is probably a bit more than you would need to account for reaction time. If you can trade a little bit for Crit without losing Spell Power or Intellect, it will probably be to your benefit, if you can't, I wouldn't worry too much. I would, however, say that you should definitely avoid getting any more.

[Azyoulike]

I just posted this in another thread, but what the hell. I refer to the Haste "soft cap" for Discipline as when you're able to get a fifth GCD in between Penance Cooldowns; this occurs at ~19% Haste. I refer to the Haste "hard cap" as when the Borrowed Time buff and your Haste gets your GCD to 1s which is something you'll encounter when spamming PWS on the raid; this occurs at 25% Haste. I consider this a "hard cap" because you already won't get more tank throughput, and if you are on the raid, you will almost never be casting Flash Heal on them, so while you may occassionally see some benefit beyond 25%, it's so small that it's essentially wasted itemization.

Hmm, 25% haste (meaning 11% from gear) certainly isn't a 'hard cap', in any meaningful way - I would consider it soft-cap or better yet BT-cap. I've always thought as you do that after 11% I should choose crit gear over haste but the more I think about it the more I'm having to reconsider.

Suppose you are in a heavy raid healing scenario and are casting PW:S followed by PoH in a cycle. Since you are consuming BT immediately with a long cast time spell every cast is still >1s. So in that scenario your haste scaling is still good at BT-cap but your crit scaling is way down due to all those PW:Ss.

My point here is that theorycrafting crit versus haste after the BT-cap is hard for as it depends not just on spell selection but the precise rotation.

Actually it should be possible to write a combat log parser to determine which stat is scaling better for you from encounter to encounter (or at least approximate it). I may get round to that as a project if I'm bored.

[Liliyah]

Haste is multiplicative, not additive. People need to keep that in mind when doing their math. >.<
25% from BT
6% enlightenment
5% from totem
3% from aura
These do not add up to 39% haste!

The way it works is: 1.25*1.06*1.05*1.03 = 43.3% haste
To find out how much you need from gear to get to 50% haste(PW:S spam cap) 1.5 / 1.433 = 4.7%


To be haste capped for bubble spam, you're looking at something like 4.7% haste assuming all the haste buffs.

[Liliyah]

Hi. Haste is additive for spells. What you said above applies to melee, not casting.

I keep hearing people say haste is additive, and I wasn't buying it. So I decided to do some tests again to make sure things didn't change from the last time I ran an experiment.


The Haste
I have 10.8% on my gear for this test.
I get 6% from Enlightenment.
I get 25% from BT.

Assuming haste is additive, I should have 42% haste total (I rounded up for ease here).
Assuming haste is multiplicative, I should have 46.8% haste total.


Tests
Flash Heal
Base casting time on flash heal is 1.5 seconds.
The formula for spell cast time after haste is base cast time / 1 + haste percentage

Assuming additive: 1.5 / 1.42 = 1.06 seconds
Assuming multiplicative: 1.5 / 1.468 = 1.02 seconds
Right now, if I bubble myself, then try to cast a FH, the casting speed on my tooltip reads 1.02. This agrees with haste being multiplicative.

Resurrection
Longer cast time, bigger difference in casting speed when comparing the two possibilities here.
10 second cast.

Additive: 10 / 1.42 = 7.04 seconds
Multiplicative: 10 / 1.468 = 6.81 seconds
Right now, I bubbled myself, and hovered over my res button. Tooltip says 6.81 second cast. This agrees with haste being multiplicative.

[llDemonll]

14% is the softcap for disc priests as far as haste goes.

14% + 6% from enlightenment = 20% haste and EJ has math for how casting pw:s puts you at 50% haste (1 sec gcd as opposed to 1.5sec)

i am at almost the exact haste as you and wont concern myself much further with the extra 1%, haste has always just been a bonus to me, never a stat i focused on

[Zeuq]

Hmm, 25% haste (meaning 11% from gear) certainly isn't a 'hard cap', in any meaningful way - I would consider it soft-cap or better yet BT-cap. I've always thought as you do that after 11% I should choose crit gear over haste but the more I think about it the more I'm having to reconsider.

Well, you're right in the sense that it's possible that you can still potentially see some benefit beyond what I refered to as the hard cap; however, the vast majority of the time, you will see no benefit because you're either tank healing or pws spamming the raid. So, sure, it's not a hard cap like spell hit, but if you're continuing to stack a stat that's only useful in a small percentage of situations, I think it's about as analagous as you'll get with a hard cap for healing.

Suppose you are in a heavy raid healing scenario and are casting PW:S followed by PoH in a cycle. Since you are consuming BT immediately with a long cast time spell every cast is still >1s. So in that scenario your haste scaling is still good at BT-cap but your crit scaling is way down due to all those PW:Ss.

I could potentially see this happening in, say, Mimi P2 or Twins if for some reason you are lacking raid healers such that PWS spam doesn't make more sense, but this is one of those sorts of exceptions. It's one thing to theorycraft for a specific encounter, and I like to do that and often will have a piece or two of gear to change around as needed. However, I think most raid makeups will consist of enough Holy Priests, Druids, and Shamans such that a PWS>PoH rotation probably be terribly viable and you'll end up just doing PWS spam with Penances, PoMs, and the occasional FH thrown in to save the people who get low and let the raid healers handle the bulk.

So, if you think it's less confusing to call it a BT-cap, okay. I would just advise that, in general, once you reach that point, with perhaps the rare encounter where you're not watching tank burst damage filling with PWS and PoM on the raid, Haste is something that loses almost all of it's value.

My point here is that theorycrafting crit versus haste after the BT-cap is hard for as it depends not just on spell selection but the precise rotation.

This much is true. I think Haste is truly awesome for a Disc Priest at low gear levels because squeezing in that extra GCD for tank healing can make a huge difference in one's tank healing throughput. Beyond that, it's hard to say and that's why I want people to be aware that all of these numbers are based on some pretty heavy generalizations. Obviously, if one is on the tank pretty much full time, getting to the Penance soft-cap is vital, but getting beyond that Haste is very meh and Crit is way better. If you're taking on more raid healing responsibilities, then Haste comes back into play and Crit becomes meh because PWS benefits very little from Crit (only via the glyph heal).

However, I tend to do my theorycrafting in simpler terms because healing is just too complex to handle all situations. Obviously, for a specific encounter, if I need more throughput or more regen, I can handle that on an individual basis, but beyond that, it's hard to know how much Haste one needs in a situation because you need to know about what other classes are present, what their assignments are, how good their gear is, and you also need to know about the tanks and such. So instead I just stick with general ideas like below the extra GCD between Penance CDs, Haste is better than Crit, above that, Crit wins but Haste is still useful unless JUST spamming the tank, and once you can GCD cap with BT, Haste becomes next to worthless except in a rare situation.

Actually it should be possible to write a combat log parser to determine which stat is scaling better for you from encounter to encounter (or at least approximate it). I may get round to that as a project if I'm bored.

I'd actually done that before but, well, it takes so damn long to put that kind of math together that it just didn't seem worth it since right after I finished they completely rehauled the class. I think, though, that with enough understanding figuring out the usefulness of a stat can become intuitive because one should know how much usefulness one is getting out of BT and whether or not they feel like they're waiting around for CDs or always have something available to cast.

[Relina]

It depends on your play style. You don't need much in order to spam shields on the raid. If you do a ton of tank healing like myself, you can never have enough haste since you will never GCD cap your Greater Heals with any amount of haste from gear/gems/enchants.

[Amoenitas]

For shield spamming you only need 4,67% haste (with full support) - see www.elitistjerks.com

For Tank healing you may take more haste, but you don't need to- stacking crit ist the better option.

[Athelaz]

well im almost always strictly tank healing theres another disc priest in my guild that argued that gheal spam was more effective on say HM 25 man beasts tank healing. hes completely wrong and i proved it by out healing him by 2 million on the same tanks all night. for me i keep renews up just for filler. and its penance then flashes till its up again with pws up at all times.

[cruxxy]

well im almost always strictly tank healing theres another disc priest in my guild that argued that gheal spam was more effective on say HM 25 man beasts tank healing. hes completely wrong and i proved it by out healing him by 2 million on the same tanks all night. for me i keep renews up just for filler. and its penance then flashes till its up again with pws up at all times.

Could you post your raidlog? There are so many factors other that pure healing output that support healing efficacy. I'm 53/18, heavy haste (15-16%) and I will never go any lower. I would never advocate for "GH spamming" but a BT-hasted 1.2sec penance + 1.5sec GH is too powerful a tool to lose. I will say that it wasn't until HToCr that I really felt the need for that kind of burst healing (Algalon, perhaps the exception).

I have no doubt you do a fine job keeping your tanks up FH spamming. But I would suggest you try boosting your haste and actually playing with a 1.5sec GH. I didn't even have GH on my bar in Ulduar, but gear is different and encounters are different. Try it out

The key to gearing haste is to select spirit-less items with SP+crit+haste, and there are TONS in ToCr and Ony. I'm raid-buffed over 35% holy crit with 16% haste. I use insightful meta and darkweave, and if a fight is really mana intensive, I swap in a regen trinket. It's working great through HAnub who hopefully will die this week.