A somewhat calmer viewpoint on "5 man Arthas"

[Omedon]

I feel the need to address the disapointingly predictable outrage among the raider community over the recent announcement that Arthas will be the final boss in the fourthcoming "frozen halls" 5-man instance, to be implemented with WoW patch 3.3.

The only point of the complaints I can sympathize with are the assumptions that he will now not be in the raid content to be released in the same fashion. Let me say that I would be greatly surprised if there is no raidable Lich King. That would be lame.

The part of the complaining I just shake my head and laugh at would be the sense of superiority and, dare this casual player say, entitlement some raiders are expressing over the very idea of experiencing Arthas, to the exclusion of all who do not raid.

I will always be the first to admit that raiding is a different kind, and a potent form of challenging gaming. As such, if you can maintain the co-ordination of 10 or 25 people long enough to beat down a raid boss of current difficulty, you deserve ( and indeed, require) better loot/gear than me, a lover of 5-man content. The more "tangible" rewards, such as gear and raid-achievement mounts, are there to reward you for your efforts, for which I commend you.

When you gain the audacity to claim exclusive rights to the satisfaction of a well told story, I'm afraid I must step in.

Arthas is heavilly inferred throughout the leveling process as everyone's personal badguy. He is the antagonist for the intended, default experience of levels 68-80. Everyone is encouraged to harbour a grudge of astronomical proportions for the lich king. Arthas is the poster boy, the promise of the story of this expansion itself, not simply the raid content. When developers and storytellers want a controlled, instanced encounter between pretty much everyone and this intimate, personal nemesis, it just makes sense to put him in a 5-man dungeon. Anyone who argues on this axis is playing the wrong game, in my opinion.

"But 10 man raids are so easy and accessible" you say? I can agree for the most part, but it's still raiding, the one polarizing element of the PVE aspect of WoW. Blizzard has told a story that must transcend this polarization, must be told at eye level, not up a flight of stairs to the next floor or player availability and organization.

Yes, they have every right in the world to make the 5-man Arthas the hardest fight of its kind in the history of WoW, you should have to know how to play to defeat the Lich King, but that's where it ends. Every schedule that can level to 80 should be able to work in an ending to that story. If it takes a long emblem grind, if it takes lucky drops in TOC5 as a precursor, so be it, but a 5-man hands the chance to close the book to just about everyone.

If you have a problem with me and my tight, tiny, casual group of friends getting the full story blizzard has intended all along to tell us, I'm afraid I must disagree with you. You are playing the wrong game, and you should probably find another pastime.

Let's try ( dare to dream) to keep it civil, should any discussion come of this.

Thank you for reading, and happy gaming, however you choose to game.

[Omedon]

On the other hand: Didn't stop them to have Anub as some kickass hardmode raidboss in TotC 10 and 25 and somewhat of a joke boss in AN at the same time

this is the precedent that makes 5-man Arthas imaginable as a definitive "ending", as opposed to "Mal'ganising out", but I'd be happy either way.

[ArethSS]

I have to agree with the OP. Although I am a raider. Blizzard decided to tell a story this time with WotLK. Moreso than in BC. Arthas has been there with you the entire way from 70-80. Goading you on with taunts. For Blizz to make him only accessible to 10/25 man raids would be idiotic. Of course 10/25 mans will actually be able to be the ones to completely end the story. Get your panties out of a knot for a min to see this. They just want even the casual player to at least experience their nemesis throughout the game. Hell even in the argent tournament it is stated that (paraphrase) "OMG, Wrath Gate was epic fails...instead of storming the citadel we're sending in a SMALL group to take out the LK. They even told you before they told you. Small force.

[Templar]

Some people seem to have missed the point that Either Jaina or Sylvanas will be in the Dungeon with you. They're pretty powerful themselves if I'm not mistaken. He won't be beaten in the dungeon, just humiliated or wounded.

[Gilian]

You are saying that if you pay 15$ to play this game you should get everything that the game has to offer even if you don't want/can play the whole game (that's, ofcourse, not your problem). And "i am playing the wrong game". Get over yourself. Are you really that selfish that a game has to be adjusted to YOU because YOU payed for it (let's forget about the other millions of people who also payed for it)? You just payed for a game that you don't want to play so it should be changed. Maybe you are playing the wrong game?

I don't care if the lich king dies in a 5 man instance or in a raid or whatever. But your argument is so ridiculous.

If you have a problem with me and my tight, tiny, casual group of friends getting the full story blizzard has intended all along to tell us, I'm afraid I must disagree with you.

I don't. You just chose to play a game where PvE raiding is a huge part of the game and you can't or don't want to experience.


If you want the story, download a movie of the kill.

[Exera]

You are saying that if you pay 15$ to play this game you should get everything that the game has to offer even if you don't want/can play the whole game (that's, ofcourse, not your problem). And "i am playing the wrong game". Get over yourself. Are you really that selfish that a game has to be adjusted to YOU because YOU payed for it (let's forget about the other millions of people who also payed for it)? You just payed for a game that you don't want to play so it should be changed. Maybe you are playing the wrong game?

I don't care if the lich king dies in a 5 man instance or in a raid or whatever. But your argument is so ridiculous.

I don't. You just chose to play a game where PvE raiding is a huge part of the game and you can't or don't want to experience.


If you want the story, download a movie of the kill.

How do I become a selfish tit like you? Is there a school for it or something?

[Deleted]

Didn't GC say recently that the Lich King is not as important in the grand scheme of things as everyone thinks he is ?

Now they have Cataclysm planned and whatever comes after it to use, why shouldn't the Arthas story have closure for everyone who saw him levelling up in Northrend ?

If there is an ending in the 5 man then I will be grateful on my son's behalf because he dreams of being able to fight him. It won't spoil my enjoyment when I raid Icecrown that's for sure.

[Deathcold]

I would like to see the LK badly injuried for a 5 man group plus the factions leaders.

[Epar]

I imagine that Jaina/Sylvanas will do something to either remove Frostmourne from Arthas or remove his helm, making him much, much weaker. After which we get him to 10% or whatever, he gets ahold of it again and retreats even further back into ICC where we find and finish him off(possibly).

[The_Harvan]

A long shot here, but what if Bolvar and Saurfang Jr. reappear as death knights and save the lich king?

[ikabod00]

Please no 5 or 10 man versions of Arthas. Make him a 25 man only. He is the Lich King for petes sake. He should have only 1 version to kill, the hard 1. Please no easy versions of him to kill.

Seriously? Really? Please get over yourself. Whats your issue with 10 man killing. A 5 man won't kill him. If you read what others posted, most are of the consensus that the 5 man will fight him, and he will have to leave (or we will have to leave, cuz 5 men can't beat him). And then he will be beaten in the raid. Please just get over yourself.

[Lysah]

You are saying that if you pay 15$ to play this game you should get everything that the game has to offer even if you don't want/can play the whole game (that's, ofcourse, not your problem). And "i am playing the wrong game". Get over yourself. Are you really that selfish that a game has to be adjusted to YOU because YOU payed for it (let's forget about the other millions of people who also payed for it)? You just payed for a game that you don't want to play so it should be changed. Maybe you are playing the wrong game?

I don't care if the lich king dies in a 5 man instance or in a raid or whatever. But your argument is so ridiculous.

I don't. You just chose to play a game where PvE raiding is a huge part of the game and you can't or don't want to experience.


If you want the story, download a movie of the kill.

You.

Are.

The.

Minority.

The OP is part of the majority of the players of this game, his opinion, his vote, and his 15 bucks is worth way more than yours. Clearly Blizzard agrees, hence LK 5 man boss.

[Lawci]

Arthas WILL be in the 5 man, Arthas WILL be the final boss of the raid, the raid WILL be 10 AND 25 man, anyone who doesn't like this idea.. tough. I agree wholeheartedly with the OP, even though I raid I don't think people who don't raid/prefer 5 mans should have to miss out on the chance to at least fight Arthas.

Funny thing is though, nobody said he'd be beaten in the 5 man, hell, we don't even know for sure if he's gonna die at all so I don't really see what all the fuss surrounding his appearance as a 5 man boss, in the final, unlocked wing of what is probably gonna be a pretty tough 5 man instance, is about.

[ikabod00]

And not to mention, fighting him in the 5 man makes sense. It does. We are sneaking into HIS citadel. He hears that 5 fighters, and Jaina/Sylvanas, 2 people he would probably love to kill are sneaking in. So he thinks, this will be easy, not to mention, we are taking out parts of his citadel that are important. So he comes down to face us. Because, yes HE IS THE LICH KING and we are just a group of 5. So we can't possibly beat him. And we won't. We will fight him for a short time, and that will be it. We will need to retreat, or something will happen where he needs to leave. And the real epic fight will be left for the raid. The whole reason to fight him in 5 man makes sense.

I just don't understand the issue some people have with this. It really doesn't make sense.

[Lawci]

As I recall GC or some other blue posted on the forums saying something about the Arthas RAID encounter being, and I quote, "Mega" so to anyone getting pissy about this 5 man stuff, please unbunch your panties.

[Deleted]

And not to mention, fighting him in the 5 man makes sense. It does. We are sneaking into HIS citadel. He hears that 5 fighters, and Jaina/Sylvanas, 2 people he would probably love to kill are sneaking in. So he thinks, this will be easy, not to mention, we are taking out parts of his citadel that are important. So he comes down to face us. Because, yes HE IS THE LICH KING and we are just a group of 5. So we can't possibly beat him. And we won't. We will fight him for a short time, and that will be it. We will need to retreat, or something will happen where he needs to leave. And the real epic fight will be left for the raid. The whole reason to fight him in 5 man makes sense.

I just don't understand the issue some people have with this. It really doesn't make sense.

Totally agree.

[Exeeter]

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/20133...-decision.html


serioulsy.... the 5 man arthas will not be the end all be all encounter for the expo..

[Haxxored]

Obviously you have 2 powerfull allies here - and while you get to fight Arthas....does it say you can actually beat him? Maybe he wins, but can't kill you - flees and leaves some loot behind.

Certainly the final defeat (if there is one) happens in 10 and 25 man....and who knows...Blizzard might have a diferent twist ending at the 10 man than at the 25 man?

On the other hand: Didn't stop them to have Anub as some kickass hardmode raidboss in TotC 10 and 25 and somewhat of a joke boss in AN at the same time

You're wrong about the 2 boss thing alliance gets Jana and Horde gets Sylvanas the concept is the same the boss helps you battle Arthas your 5 offers support but basically its a 1v1 fight between lore characters (guessing).s

As for Anub he's an empty boss ToC is a complete fail of an instance from a lore / design stand point and even blizz developers say it's simply a gear up and hold over stage while they work on ToC.

As for the original post, I don't really have a problem with 5 mans beating Arthas but I feel that the lore and the character has been severely damaged by this continual engagement model that blizzard has adopted. Sure people get to see Arthas and there is that initial "Oh shit!" moment but after every encounter so far it has left me with a sense of disappointment.

From the WC III games Arthas was awesome and his power undisputed, since then he's been portrayed as a bumbling, incompetent, idiot who is repeatedly foiled in his schemes by mid range 70s. How is that "adding a sense of apprehension and animosity"? Engagement is good but Arthas needs to be beefed up players need to be afraid of him. If through your encounters with Arthas he had succeeded defeating quest characters, destroying friendly NPCs / villagers, and generally showing off the immense power he supposedly has blizzard's objective may have been completed. But because they settled for the PG approach where every Arthas encounter turns out with rainbows and butterflies you get the general feeling that he's a putz quite the opposite of the stated intent.

Keep Arthas in 5 man but have him put on a show. Let him take out large numbers of Horde / Alliance forces, kill a high power lore char (not going to kill Jana or Sylvanas they have too much story to play but could take down Darion Mograine or Aliocha Segard / Confessor Paletress. Make the 5 man a designed loss maybe even malicious trap that players must escape from. 5 man may not get "closure" on the story but having Arthas defeated by 5 players even assisted by 1 mid range lore character is silly. Save the lore, don't kill the story to pander to players too lazy to do 10 man normal.

[Wintermut3]

Didn't GC say recently that the Lich King is not as important in the grand scheme of things as everyone thinks he is ?

If this statement is true, we might just be "redeeming" Arthas in the 5-man, banishing the Lich King-spirit from him that "mysteriously flees deeper into the Citadel" and in the end of the 10/25 you end up fighting Ner'zhul's Spirit or whatever Frostmourne/Ner'zhul/The Lich King deems fitting to manifest.

Then we'll be the good guys, Arthas might not die (although probably getting executed), we save the bad guy (á la Disney), befriend him and then banish the evil spirit of Frostmourne/Ner'zhul/Lich King forever and ever? End of story?

Just a thought.

[lumnights]

Even as a hardcore raider, I applaud the OP for his well thought-out and eloquent post. I couldn't agree more; let everyone experience the whole story. Hardcore players get the best gear, but everyone should get to experience the content (in some form).

P.S. I love that ToC10/25 is easy enough for casuals to experience, but ToC10/25-Heroic mode is still a challenge for most progression guilds.