It’s time to bring an end to the ‘hybrids should do less dps’ myth

[darkriver41]

What is difference between me and rogue? Oh wait yes there is: I'm a plate wearing monstrocity in bladed/spiky armor and I can swing 2 huge 2handers in each hand. And rogue is a.... What? Some sneaky shit in leather with 2 loldaggers. And rogues can poke bosses with their dagger for a much more dmg than fury warriors? OH F**NG realy?

Actually, fury warriors are braindead barbarians who know nothing other than "ME SMASH!". Rogues are calculating fighters who plan out their attacks and use daggers because they are small enough to strike specific vital points precisely in order to inflict tons of damage.

That being said, Blizzard already said hybrids should do like 1% less DPS than pures. Which is cool with me (being a rogue).

[mutantboy]

And seriously... The margin isn't THAT big... a good Hybrid can outdps a bad pure-dps in most cases.

Except for some hybrids that isn't true. Well one anyway.

the real problem here is not about hybrids - it's about S/priests. They have low dps - end of story. The other healer classes have offspecs that offer more dps. Plus the shadow priests need cloth gear which mages and locks need and boomkins can use (minor consideration but if you are trying to gear a raid fastest way is to make sure you have wide range of gear users). When all is said and done there is very little reason to bring a s/priest.

[gunner_recall]

why should dps matter if you get the fight done? as long as you complete it, who cares if your dick is the biggest?

Because none of you have the balls to answer.

Edit: I makes it tiny so no one's eyes will bleed.

[Pascal]

why should dps matter if you get the fight done? as long as you complete it, who cares if your dick is the biggest?

Because none of you have the balls to answer.

The reason people care about their DPS as the class that they like to play is because they fear being considered not worth bringing to a raid. If spriests across the board all do terrible damage and don't provide any necessary buffs, people who enjoy playing an spriest fear they won't get into a guild or into a pug. A guild focusing on progression and efficiency would take a stupider person who plays a class that just does more DPS than even the best spriest. Now, that is obviously only if spriest's damage really was that terrible, but that's the idea.

[gunner_recall]

The reason people care about their DPS as the class that they like to play is because they fear being considered not worth bringing to a raid. If spriests across the board all do terrible damage and don't provide any necessary buffs, people who enjoy playing an spriest fear they won't get into a guild or into a pug. A guild focusing on progression and efficiency would take a stupider person who plays a class that just does more DPS than even the best spriest. Now, that is obviously only if spriest's damage really was that terrible, but that's the idea.

So basically, people are retarded?

[hx9]

Warrior, Paladin, DK tanks... Shaman, Priest, Priest, Paladin, Paladin Healers and...

Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid

BATTLE REZ~!

Speaking from EXP, we have run as many as NINE druids in ToC heroic and are through the twin valks. Druid B-Rez is the single most powerful raid ability in the game. It negates ONE downsyndrome moment reactively.

[Pascal]

So basically, people are retarded?

Obviously. I guess my answer was a bit needlessly wordy.

[Toffeebob]

Last time I checked, A good feral is up at the top of the dps list >_>

[thoukaia]

99% of the posters in this thread are missing the point that the OP was referring to:

why should a raidleader bring a shadowpriest or any other hybrid that does less damage than a pure DPS class in a progression raid? killing the boss is all that matters, and the raidleader expects the shadowpriest to acknlowledge and accept that.

also why should the feral druid, who is a hybrid and brings a very powerful melee buff, do more damage than pure DPS classes, while the shadowpriest whos only raid utility is a measly 3% spellhit does less damage than pure DPS classes?

yes i play a pve shadow priest.

[jontaxe]

I don't want to get personal to you, since this pretty much goes to all shaman out there...

Shaman bitch the most out of any class (and yes, this even includes paladins) I have ever seen in my life. Every single one of the shaman I know bitches about all three of his talent trees, how he is useless to a raid no matter what he does, how people only want him for heroism, and how his DPS sucks nuts compared to the other 9 classes.

Go look at the DPS records on wowmeter, there are enhance shaman doing 7-9k, there are elemental shaman doing 7-9k. If you were a serious DPS shaman you'd dual spec enh/ele and have a set for both, and be doing that damage every fight, depending on which spec was better for it. If your rogues and DKs are still beating you by 2-3k DPS after you're doing 8k, I call bullshit.

Maybe one day you shaman will all stop bitching, except that would be the day you have skill, so I know it's just a dream.

No, actually, mages bitch more than any other class. Apparently, asking them to scorch is akin to flaying them on a cross. Shamans bitch about pvp.

The shaman community mostly acknowledge that both enhance and resto are fine. More than fine, actually. Enhance can crank out top notch DPS, and reso can finally cast something aside from chain heal and do roles other than "shamans, you all raid heal".

For that matter, it's not "hybrids" that have a problem DPS'ing. Feral droods, DKs, enhance shaman do excellent DPS, top meters some times DPS. Dunno about boomkins, all ours went feral or resto.

It's elemental shaman and spriests. It isn't "hybrids v pures", it's two specs are woefully behind. The recent buffs certainly helped, but not nearly enough. The recent buffs should also make it obvious that it isn't a matter of all elementals and spriests are whining noobs that need to l2p.

My 1.5 sec LB hits for ~4000. My 1.2 sec LvB hits for ~9500. There are a few other frills (flame shock, lightning overload, chain lightning, etc. etc.) but that is where ~90% of my damage comes from. No amount of skill in the world is going to make that LB cast faster than 1.5 sec., no about of skill in the world is going to lower LvB cooldown, no amount of skill is going to make LO proc more than 33% of the time.

No amount of skill is going to lift me from ~5.5k-6k DPS to the 7.5k-8k DPS that the top DPSers are doing. Doing 5% less damage is fine. Doing 25% less damage is not.

[davesurfer]

im boomkin by trade and if one of our healers go down i can HoT their target, brez the healer in question, and get back to dpsing in very little time

I completely agree. I don't mind the "tax." In fact I push my DPS harder now than when my main was a Mage. Back in T7, I could top the meters as a mage with little effort, but as a Boom I really push myself, as no one wants to be at the bottom, and I am not usually. Plus my Brez is worth more DPS than any pure DPS class. Think about it. Without my BRez, that DPSer is dead and does zero damage. Because I can BRez, I am directly responsible for any Damage done after the death. Or if a tank dies, without a druid, it will most likely be a wipe, but I can Brez, heal, and buff the tank and he is ready to go. Then there is Moonkin aura and 3% hit.

So yes hybrids do put out less DPS, and sure I would prefer they did more, but I am just happy the way it is.

[kailtas]

How is this a myth? Hybrids should do less DPS, blizzard agrees in most cases, end of discussion.

Just because blizzard agrees with u does not make them right.

however, blizzard can and blizzard will.

[Silarn]

In skilled groups, the damage differential is not great enough that it is really a major factor. And pures really should get a SLIGHT damage boost to make up for their lack of options. (Do I want to pew pew with fire or shadow?!) I'm in a fairly high-end guild; at the very least we're the best on our server and have good players (which is admittedly a very low-ranking server).

Thing is, at least as it pertains to melee, while our rogues do top the meters on many fights the difference isn't so great that warriors/dks/paladins are ignored just to bring in as many rogues as possible. Our other melee still do great damage. And every class has at least one fight I can think of where it shines. Warriors just blow away other classes on small-scale aoe encounters. DKs blow away everything on large-scale AoE. Our paladin does amazingly well on Twins (mind you not every time, it's an incredibly situational, RNG fight for DPS). So it's not like pures are better on every fight all the time. Point is, we bring good players, not classes (at least, once raid balance is met). The only fight I can think of in current content where we go our of our way to get a rogue is Anub - for AoE wound poison and interrupting. And that's on a basis of utility, not performance.

---

SPriests are rightfully getting buffed. Blizz tried to deny it but ultimately 1000s of DPS averages don't lie. The only single-target fight I've ever seen a SPriest do good damage on was Hodir, and undoubtedly he got very lucky with buffs.

I've seen ele shaman do great damage, though they are still a little behind. I've actually seen fewer great enh. shaman.

I've seen a ret pally consistently in the top 5 in a very skilled group. (IE. It wasn't a ret pally knowing his shit vs. 16 morons.)

For the most part classes are very even with only a handful of specs that actually need work. SPriests were the big one, and they're getting a significant buff. Shaman dps could use a very slight boost. Boomkin could use a very small buff from what I've seen, but then I haven't seen a ton of boomkin either. Frost mages aren't usually considered, but they may actually become viable in 3.3. Afflic. locks could be a bit behind on most fights, but I think they're getting a small buff in 3.3 also. (Actually, I think ferals may be the only dot-heavy spec in 3.2 that does great damage when played well.)

[Offhand]

99% of the posters in this thread are missing the point that the OP was referring to:

why should a raidleader bring a shadowpriest or any other hybrid that does less damage than a pure DPS class in a progression raid? killing the boss is all that matters, and the raidleader expects the shadowpriest to acknlowledge and accept that.

also why should the feral druid, who is a hybrid and brings a very powerful melee buff, do more damage than pure DPS classes, while the shadowpriest whos only raid utility is a measly 3% spellhit does less damage than pure DPS classes?

yes i play a pve shadow priest.

So, whichever class you play brings "inferior" buffs to the given example. Or are you so oblivious/dumb as to forget every other buff brought by a spriest to a raid situation (VE/replen), to to mention class only buffs.

I can almost guarantee the stats saved by 3% spell hit outweighs 5% melee or caster crit in terms of a dps increase.

As a raid lead, the amount of actual dps player X brings is near the bottom of the priority list. I'm much more inclined to build a group around a missing a buff or two or whether we need more melee/ranged for the fight before I even consider dps. There are no real hard burns in tier 9 content. Even Anub'Arak is more about control/placement then dps.

Your ability to bring key raid buffs, perform the necessary dance for the fight, and stay out of the fucking fire are all way more important to a raid leader then your dps. Looking at recount and whining on forums is what bad players do.

[dazline]

yes and no. some hybrids should do less damage, some shouldnt. I giggle a little reading threw posts. bunch of pure dps butt hurt. must suck having to collect one set of gear

If a pure dps is pissed from being out dps by a hybrid, QQ away! really tho? you enchant once, you loot ur BiS and ur done.

In order for a hybrid to compare to pure dps classes they need decent sets in other specs. So what ever you guilds loot system is hybrids get the short end of the stick in most not all cases(resto/ele, balanc/resto can manage with same gear).

Also if a pure loses to a hybrid bad bad bad. Being a hybrid bring extra responsibility to raiding (brez, innervating healers). if you cant beat someone who under most situations will have an "extra task" then........

Now im not saying hybrids should do equal dps, or less for that matter. all im saying is im reading abunch of butt hurt pure classes, saying "we should do more and you should reroll pure if you want to do the same" now where would that get us -.- . you need hybrids 10x the amount a raid needs ur extra 100 dps. last time i looked a raid had 25 people. keep shitting on the hybrids, watch them get nerfed and then kiss your chance for gear goodbye.

[Silarn]

Very few people try to do two completely different raid roles simultaneously for the very reason you provided. It's ridiculous to expect anyone to gear up two completely different specs -- at least in a hardcore guild doing hard modes.

But if we're to follow along that exact train of thought, then you have to realize that the BiS gear for a fire mage is different from an arcane mage. A destro lock different from an affliction lock. A combat rogue different from a mutilate rogue.

It's a worthless point.

What does "In order for a hybrid to compare to pure dps classes they need decent sets in other specs." even mean? You only need ONE SET to do any specific role. I don't wear tank gear on my DPS DK.

And every class now has some kind of raid utility, pure or not. There are several buffs that are wholly unique to hybrids, but not all by a long shot, and almost all of them can be attained through multiple classes. Only pures have aggro redirects. Soul Stones are only marginally worse than Battle Resses, as you must pick your target beforehand. Mages have Focus Magic and Intellect. In fact, many of the pure DPS utilities must be used at the expense of their own DPS (expose armor, deadly poison for a mutilate rogue, curse of the elements for warlocks, ToT/Misdirect), whereas very few hybrid buffs require extra thought or effort during battle.

If some people here are a bit overzealous toward pures, then you are their opposite.

[Voij]

Just because blizzard agrees with u does not make them right.

Well, actually, it's Blizzard's game you're playing, so yes, it does make them right.

if Blizzard decides that the Warrior class is not needed anymore and take it out of the game, then that sucks pretty hard for those who play a Warrior, but it's still their decision and if you want to keep playing, then you have to accept that.

Though, have to say, it usually does make a difference if players voice their opinions, especially when considering PTRs. What's of no use, though, is complaining about something, that Blue's have stated as one of Blizzard's policies for WotLK, and trying to get rid of it before even waiting for Blizz to review everything once again.

TL;DR:
Blizzard's game, they can do what they want.
Ask again when cataclysme is on PTRs.

[Polarthief]

To the OP:

A. You can fucking heal and therefore NEVER need to buy food.
B. You can fucking heal. If One/All of your healers are dead, you can save a fight and avoid a wipe.
C. Be appreciative that Blizzard allowed hybrids to be born. Remember Vanilla? Each class had ONE ROLE.
D. QFT.

I rolled a mage because I wanted the BIG DAMAGE. *And yes, I know that by being a mage, I don't need to buy food either XD nor drinks, but still that's aside from the point* I can ONLY do damage, therefore, I should be good in it.

You can heal OR damage. Since you get versatility, you can't do as MUCH in damage.

Damn, I bet if their next hero class has three healing speccs, I bet he will outheal ANY class with ease. Then you'll be bitching that you can't heal as much as he can.

[Polarthief]

99% of the posters in this thread are missing the point that the OP was referring to:

why should a raidleader bring a shadowpriest or any other hybrid that does less damage than a pure DPS class in a progression raid? killing the boss is all that matters, and the raidleader expects the shadowpriest to acknlowledge and accept that.

also why should the feral druid, who is a hybrid and brings a very powerful melee buff, do more damage than pure DPS classes, while the shadowpriest whos only raid utility is a measly 3% spellhit does less damage than pure DPS classes?

yes i play a pve shadow priest.

Seeing as how SPs and Retadins can bring Replenishment *Sure, Hunters, Warlocks, and Mages can too, but no one ever goes Frost Mage / Gets those horrible pre-reqs and talents for it as a pure dps*; Retadins bring the +3% raid damage *Ferocious inspiration equivalent. BM Hunters do not exist*; Extra paladin = extra raid buff / Salv if needed / DI; Shadow Priests bring slightly extra healing without having to sacrifice dps. Not to mention Mind Sear is fucking amazing; Druids/Warriors bring Mangle/Trauma, which increase bleed damage *Rogues love them *; umm... what else... Dks bring a buttload of buffs dependant on their specc, + take the place of "Strength of Earth totem"; Shamans... Need I say more? If so: Heroism, ASSTON of buffs, As elemental, they have their unique totem of wrath, as enhancement, you bring Windfury *most shamans not enh bring WoA*; ummm...... did I miss a class?

[dazline]

Damn, I bet if their next hero class has three healing speccs, I bet he will outheal ANY class with ease. Then you'll be bitching that you can't heal as much as he can.

dammm 3 healing specs, lvling.... kill me now. for real tho that would blow, could u imagine!!