Party Totems and Group Mehanics

[Aleksej89]

My experience about this issue comes primarily from Battlegrounds/Wintergrasp where the Raid's coordination is not all that good, especially when compared to High-End PvE Raids. However, this problem is present in almost every Raid and PvE encounter.

The issue i am referring to is the fact that our "Party Only" totems (non Raid-Wide) are limited to affecting only our 5 Party Members.
Now this sure seems logical and correct at first, but please consider the following:

During the Battleground/WG (and most PvE encounters) members of the same Party usually get too far away from each other, sometimes even to the opposite corners of the battlefield. At such times, our "Party Only" totems become nearly useless since they are only affecting the Shaman (and thus wasting 80% of their potential).

What i propose is not a buff, nor a nerf, but a FIX to this annoying issue.
Make Shaman "Party Only" Totems affect 5 NEAREST Raid Members.
"Party Only" totems would prioritize Party Members over other Raid members, but they would still affect other Raid Members if there are insufficient Party Members in its surroundings.
These Totems would never be able to affect more then 5 targets at any time, which is exactly according to their original design and intended function.

A list of our "Party Only" totems:
- Healing Stream Totem
- Cleansing Totem
- Tremor Totem
- Earthbind Totem (with Earthen Power / Enhancement Talent)
- Mana Tide Totem (5 minute cooldown / Restoration Talent Totem)
- Grounding Totem

As my fellow Shamans can see, there is quite a lot of "Party Only" totems in our arsenal and all of them are very valuable.
By implementing this fix, our Totems would be properly doing their intended function - hence, there would be no balance issues about such a minor change.

Thank you for reading my post.
If you can, please copy this thread to the USA Forums so the Blizzard Staff could take a look at it.

[nwo]

Healing stream would be awesome if it affected the nearest 5 raid members instead of party only.

[shinthar]

- Healing Stream Totem
-> should heal the 5 lowest (via % of total hp) people in range
- Cleansing Totem
-> 5 debuffs despelled (in group)
if there are less debuffs then 5 in group
dispell 5-x other players in range with debuffs (x is the number of people allrdy dispelled)
- Tremor Totem
-> see above
- Earthbind Totem (with Earthen Power / Enhancement Talent)
-> see above
- Mana Tide Totem (5 minute cooldown / Restoration Talent Totem)
-> should be managain for the 5 lowest (via % of total mana) people in range
- Grounding Totem
-> any player in range

[Deleted]

To the OP actually those would all be BUFFS to Shaman, to Shinthar changing Healing Stream to be same as Priest Circle of Healing would be a MASSIVE boost to healing stream totem and isn't going to happen. As would cleansing 5 people who needed cleansing. Having totems that work on your party is currently balanced changing them to be intelligent totems that work on who needs it would be a huge buff.

[Aleksej89]

The totems are designed to Heal/Protect/Cleanse 5 Group Members. With sufficient Raid coordination, all these totems would always provide their buffs to all Party Members.
There would be no "huge buff" about it since it is already very possible that those totems are used in such a way.

My suggestion is that these totems are changed as so they ALWAYS provide 100% of their potential, instead of what they do now.
Blizzard balanced our "party only" totems in regards to them affect 5 people at all times.
This is all about Party/Raid Mechanics working together with Totem System and has nothing to do with balance.
There are examples of other classes having similar problems with Group mechanics, but Blizzard tended to them:
- Circle of Healing
- Wild Growth
These 2 spells, and possibly some more out there, have been fixed to work properly with a Raid Group.
However, they are still just doing their intended job of affecting 5 people. No balance issues, just mechanic fixing.

To sum it up, our "party totems" were made to affect 5 people. They are balanced around the fact of affecting 5 people.
Due to the many changes happening in WoW at all times, this was an oversight by Blizzard where they did not take into consideration that Party Members would be separated.
All i am suggesting is that our Totems that are meant to affect 5 People (and are balanced around it) be allowed to properly affect 5 People in their surroundings.
To help with Raid Group composition, "party only" totems would have a priority on Party Members before affecting other Raid members.

However, they would never affect more then 5 people... and that is exactly what they were made for and balanced for.

[Carambola]

If you see, the 'PVP' Totems are all Party-Wide.

In a BG, they are OP. 'Everyone in 30yards have fear/sheep resist'.

[Wolves]

Get a load of shamans to drop Healing Stream right next to a tank? Sounds a bit like it could be abused.

It's a nice idea and I always hated when my totems are not effective but sometimes groups are composed around the totems of a shaman and I think organising people to stand nearer to the shaman than anyone else would gimp movement and the totem's overall effectiveness more than the current system. Just my 2c.

[Aleksej89]

I am afraid some of you have not properly read my posts.

@Burgatt - These totems are capped at 5 targets maximum, meaning they can never affect more then 5 targets at any given time. I am suggesting is that they are able to affect Raid Members as well, not just party members.

@Wovles - But this can already be done! You just put 4 Resto Shamans in your Tank's party (25man) and he will have a truckload of Healing Streams on him. If anyone wanted, they could abuse this already.

Take a look at Circle of Healing (Priest) and Wild Growth (Druid) spells.
They were first Party Only spells, in that they ignored any Raid Members.
However, they were changed so they can affect both Party and Raid Members, but still only 5 people at a time as their maximum.
This is exactly what i am proposing for our "party only totems". Blizzard should change them to "5 man totems", just like Circle of Healing/Wild Growth are now "5 man spells" instead of "party only spells".

It would be a fast and easy fix that would yield no balance issues.
In fact it is more like a Bug fix then it is a "buff", since the totems are BALANCED around affecting 5 people (just like Circle of Healing and Wild Growth).

[Carambola]

But Aleksej89, if they change to more than 5 targets, most part of the totems would be OP. A lot.

[Aleksej89]

Mate you either do not understand or are just playing dumb.
Our totems would be CAPPED (maximum number of targets affected) at 5 people.

I am suggesting that they are changed from 5 Party Members to 5 Raid Members (just like CoHealing and Wild Growth).
Our totems would at no point affect more then 5 people.
If its easier for you, they could never affect more then 5 targets at any time (just lke CoHealing and Wild Growth, again).

[Carambola]

Don't judge me! Im without my glasses! :P Now I read *AGAIN* your post, and saw the 5-target thing!

Would be a extreme change.

[Deleted]

Recall though that when Wild Growth was changed to affecting 5 Raid members is was substantially nerfed taking a big hit as it became too over powered. This would need to happen to totems too. There is all the difference in the world between a totem pulsing and healing 5 people some of whom don't need it, to pulsing and affecting the 5 people in range who need it most. One is a top up background heal, the other is a focused intelligent heal that does the maximum possible healing. That is a big change.

BTW it was Prayer of Healing, not Circle of Healing that changed to being castable on raid groups. Circle of Healing was ALWAYS 5 raid members my alt is a priest. The change to CoH was from 5 nearest to the person you cast it on to 5 in range who needed it most. Once they made that change they massively nerfed CoH giving it a cooldown and reducing its co-efficients as it too was way over powered.

So please if you are going to make comparisons then present all the facts. Changing all totems to affecting 5 Raid members, say the 5 that are nearest the totem as that prevents the intelligent totem problem, definitely would require some rebalancing. Although for most minor totems it would be a negligible change and yes should be one that is encouraged.

Just be aware that it is a buff so for the suggestion to be taken seriously, and not thrown out because all the other classes cry about imbalance, the suggestion needs to mentioning rebalancing the effects/co-efficients to compensate.


I would also REALLY approve of a change that allowed one of the totem drop spells to be a drop at range. Perhaps with a CD or a higher mana cost for balance? This would be a real improvement to the playstyle of Resto and Elemental Shamans if they could stand at range and drop their totems up to 30 yards away.

[Aleksej89]

Wild Growth and the Priest's AoE healing spell were nerfed cause they were 90% of their healing.
Druids and priests just spammed that 1 button (i know, i was a resto druid) and were top healers with all the healing coming from WG/Whatever priest spell.
The nerfs they received had nothing to do with Party/Raid targeting, as Blizzard stated the real reason upon nerfing those spells.
To spare you some searching, the reason they were nerfed is cause Blizz "did not want Druids/Priest to just mash 1 button and ignore most of their other spells". Nothing to do with Targeting mechanics..

About your 2nd argument.... so you believe that our Totems were balanced and created in vision of them affecting just the Shaman?
Then why would they not make it a Shaman-only totem, if Blizzard wanted only the Shaman to be affected (as is the situation right now).
Most of the time when i drop Cleansing Totem (BGs) i have to manually remove 90% of the Poisons/Diseases on my surrounding teammates, simply because people around me are not in my party.
That is not an AoE Cleansing totem. That is a Shaman-only Cleansing Totem..... and that was NOT the Blizzard's intention with these Totems.

Our personal opinions do not matter much anyway, since the Totem System obviously has an overlooked bug that needs fixing.
There are a few possible ways to fix it:
- Make "party totems" target UP TO 5 of the surrounding Raid members, with Party members being a priority (same as WG/Priest AoE spell).
- Make "party Totems" affect party members no matter the range/distance. This would be very weird but it would at least allow totems to do their intended job.

If some of our totems would need to be nerfed/balanced after one of these changes, then so be it.
It is much worse to have 80% of our "party totems" WASTED (by not affecting 4 out of 5 members).

This is not really a suggestion for a buff or an innovative change.... its a god damn bug fix.
They did it for many other spells and there were no problems. Shamans, as usual, were forgotten.
I believe that, if we get some Blue to read it (like Ghostcrawler), Shamans would get either a Fix or a Explanation to WHY are these "Party Only" totems inhibited by such clunky and out-dated Group Mechanics that severely prevent them from doing their job.

[Deleted]

Sigh.

They changed the targeting and that resulted in the changed behaviour and the button mashing you describe. This brought in a nerf.

The current behaviour of totems is poor. We agree on that. It could and should have been looked at when they changed the other classes. I DO NOT "believe that our Totems were balanced and created in vision of them affecting just the Shaman". This is a classic mis-direction technique in your argument. You are taking my statements where I said that the change would need to be re-balanced to mean that I think they are currently balance and that they were meant to apply to only the Shaman???? No sorry this is completely and utterly mis-representing my position.

What you are missing is that the change cannot be done in isolation it has to be thought through its NOT simply a bug fix. Any change to totems affecting the whole raid (still only up to 5 people though as you point out and I agree with) would be a mechanic change its effects are DIFFERENT from party only and creates issues about which five people it affects and whether stacking of some totems would change the dynamics of any encounters.

I would like to see this change but you won't get Blizzard to change things if you present it in the way you have, trust me it SOUNDS overpowered and so the professional whiners will come out of the woodwork to cry about it saying it would make shamans overpowered. If you present it as a balanced argument countering the cry-babies before they post you have a dramatically improved chance of success.

It clearly isn't "a god damn bug fix" its a change, your tone sounds like you are just whining and so your proposal is unlikely to get taken seriously if you are perceived as a whiner. You only need to read a couple of posts in the cess pit that is the Blizzard forums to realise that.

I'm perfectly prepared to support this change if its coherently argued, and I could garner the support of other Shamans through the likes of the EJ forums to support it too. Just don't ruin it by coming across as a whiner.