View Poll Results: Is a tankadin's extra survivability worth gearing up my pally over my warrior?

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  • Naw, wawrriors rule!

    21 53.85%
  • Yes, the light gives me strength!

    18 46.15%
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  1. #21

    Re: Gear my tankadin or stay with warrior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultralisk
    Due to Real Life I can't commit to a regular raid schedule, so I've been working on MTing my way through pug raids. I'm cleared everything up to Auriya in Uldaman (failed due to dodgy heals and retarded DPS) and with better heals managed to make it through to Twin Valkyries in ToC10. I'm pretty happy with my warrior overall but at the same time, I can see so many times when it wouldn't have been a wipe if I'd had Ardent Defender. The way I see it:

    Warrior:
    -10% Damage Taken (Def. Stance)
    +6% Stamina (Vitality)
    +Shield Wall
    +Last Stand

    Paladin:
    -12% Damage Taken(!) (Imp. Righteous Fury + Shield of the Templar + Sanc.)
    -6% Spell Damage Taken
    +11% Heals Taken (!)
    +14% Stamina (!)
    + Ardent Defender (!) (~+10% effective health plus automatic antiwipe)
    + Divine Sacrifice/Guardian
    + Divine Protection
    + More Threat
    + 30sec 3-target taunt

    Compared to Warrior, Paladin has:
    -2% Damage Taken
    +11% Heals
    +8% Stamina
    +10% Effective Health
    +Get-out-of-slow-heals-free Card

    That all makes me go "wow, why am I tanking on my warrior?". So before starting to invest some time in his gear (3rd 80, currently fresh-80 tank gear but decent ret gear so no problem getting heroics) I'm asking for your input. Is it worth the hassle of re-gearing? My warrior's tank set is OK but nothing out of the ordinary, ~32k health.
    you also forgot to mention critical block, vigilance, warbringer (for getting to mobs easier) an aoe taunt, and trust me, with the improved critcal block being up to 60% instead of the retarded 30% as it was before, you're sure to survive with a decent block value rating (as most are dropped in totc)

  2. #22

    Re: Gear my tankadin or stay with warrior?

    Quote Originally Posted by iglocska
    Warriors:
    + gun slot for extra stats
    + Sunders for extra phys dps for the raid
    +/- Shield wall / last stand / enraged regen / shield block vs bubble wall / lay on hands / ardent defender
    + stuns / interrupts

    I have both a pally and a warr tank and imho both have their pros and cons, if you think that you'd be a better tank when playing the other class compared to your own, it simply means that you fail on whichever you picked or simply don't understand what your tank is good at.
    Inturrupts just means you'll have an extra responsibility.. I'm not sure it should actually be a pro in a raid environment now that the classes with silences now interrupt if the target can't be silenced in 3.3.

    Shield block is used 9 times out of 10 for more damage on slams.. It can barely be called a defensive cooldown when paladins can have 100% block / dodge / parry with a 100% uptime with holy shield.

    Imo go paladin, warriors aren't very fun anyway.

    Edit: to the guy above me vigilance wouldn't be needed if we pulled the threat a paladin did anyway.
    Critical block is just as fail as it was before, our 15% chance to block isn't going to save us because we have a 30% better chance to block double the already mediocre amount we do now.. An AoE taunt is only useful since we don't have ticking AoE threat, so instead of a panic button it becomes something we have to use to gather mobs if Thunderclap and shockwave are on cooldown. Warbringers useful, I'll give you that, albeit it's mostly useful since heroic throw is on a minute second cooldown.
    Brooding.

  3. #23
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Re: Gear my tankadin or stay with warrior?

    Do what you enjoy.

    Keep in mind that you aren't mentioning/noticing a lot of the other advantages to warrioring, such as higher mobility. I don't think I'd be comfortable tanking anymore without Charge in combat.
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  4. #24

    Re: Gear my tankadin or stay with warrior?

    Quote Originally Posted by iglocska
    I have both a pally and a warr tank and imho both have their pros and cons, if you think that you'd be a better tank when playing the other class compared to your own, it simply means that you fail on whichever you picked or simply don't understand what your tank is good at.
    Oh hi I have only been playing my Warrior for hmm going on five years now, I def must fail, since i have less survivability through no fault of my own.


    To the OP: Stick it out on your Warrior man, or wait until you can be a Tauren Pally.

  5. #25
    I am Murloc! Nienniora's Avatar
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    Re: Gear my tankadin or stay with warrior?

    they will most likely buff/nerf like they did with every tank in the past to make them even
    mark my word

  6. #26
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    Re: Gear my tankadin or stay with warrior?

    I think you could argue that paladins have more constant mitigation, especially when it comes to AOE tanking.

    However, some of your numbers are slightly off.
    -For example, for the mitigation part you left out an additional 3% for paladins from glyph of divine plea, thus bringing the grand total up to 15% with sanct, but you frogot to factor in sact for warriors because they can have it too.
    -As far as the +healing goes, it is only 5% if you WASTE 5 talent points into divinity because improved devotion aura is a raid buff that can be provided by any prot pally or any tree druid.

    Each class has advantages and disadvantages and although I have never played a warrior, I must say that their tank abilities are just fine. They have enough abilities and cooldowns to make them very good at tanking. As far as the threat goes, good warriors can produce just as much TPS as paladins, with the help of vigilance of course. I've always loved playing my prot pally, even back in BC when they were pretty horrible main tanks in most situations a warrior or druid was a much better option.

    If you're looking for a change, go ahead and gear up a prot pally, if not then stick with a warrior because they are fine.
    [23:43:22] [P] [85:Bowsjob]: If its between 2 holy pallys its gonna be a gear fight most likely

  7. #27
    High Overlord Silorn's Avatar
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    Re: Gear my tankadin or stay with warrior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultralisk
    Warrior:
    -10% Damage Taken (Def. Stance)
    +6% Stamina (Vitality)
    +Shield Wall
    +Last Stand

    Paladin:
    - 12% Damage Taken(!) (Imp. Righteous Fury + Shield of the Templar + Sanc.)
    - 6% Spell Damage Taken
    +11% Heals Taken (!)
    + 14% Stamina (!)
    + Ardent Defender (!) (~+10% effective health plus automatic antiwipe)
    + Divine Sacrifice/Guardian
    + Divine Protection
    + More Threat
    + 30sec 3-target taunt

    Compared to Warrior, Paladin has:
    -2% Damage Taken
    +11% Heals
    +8% Stamina
    +10% Effective Health
    +Get-out-of-slow-heals-free Card
    (1) We don't have 11% + Healing taken, 6% is resto druid/prot paladin (and its raidwide), and the other 5% is rarely fully specced into when tanking end game instances

    (2) Sanctuary is a raid-wide buff (which doesnt even stack with the disc priests buff), so that does not count as +damage reduction, although we do have Glyph of Divine Plea which reduces the damage we take by that 3%

    (3) Divine Sacrifice is near worthless, i can't think of any encounter apart from Mimiron hard mode where I would use it as a proper raid wide tank CD (mainly due to the fact that you cant bubble while tanking something) and it doesnt stack with Hand of Sacrifice, which can be used as a CD on other tanks

    (4) Divine Guardian is a negligible amount of damage reduction, Protection paladins run with about 1300 spell power in raids, thats 2k damage reduction per 6 secs, vs 1700 non specced (and its even more useless if you run regularly with holy paladins, which have better damage reduction from it)

    (5) its a 10 Second 3 Target Taunt, which uses terrible mechanics, I would swap this for a proper AoE taunt any day

    (6) If Ardent Defender procs, then someone isn't doing their job right, yes its nice to have as an "oh ****" button, but as others have said it will more than likely get nerfed

    Honestly don't reroll just because you think "this class has better things", find a class that you enjoy playing, and play it, don't just go by whats the best.

  8. #28

    Re: Gear my tankadin or stay with warrior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silorn
    (1) We don't have 11% + Healing taken, 6% is resto druid/prot paladin (and its raidwide), and the other 5% is rarely fully specced into when tanking end game instances

    (2) Sanctuary is a raid-wide buff (which doesnt even stack with the disc priests buff), so that does not count as +damage reduction, although we do have Glyph of Divine Plea which reduces the damage we take by that 3%

    (3) Divine Sacrifice is near worthless, i can't think of any encounter apart from Mimiron hard mode where I would use it as a proper raid wide tank CD (mainly due to the fact that you cant bubble while tanking something) and it doesnt stack with Hand of Sacrifice, which can be used as a CD on other tanks

    (4) Divine Guardian is a negligible amount of damage reduction, Protection paladins run with about 1300 spell power in raids, thats 2k damage reduction per 6 secs, vs 1700 non specced (and its even more useless if you run regularly with holy paladins, which have better damage reduction from it)

    (5) its a 10 Second 3 Target Taunt, which uses terrible mechanics, I would swap this for a proper AoE taunt any day

    (6) If Ardent Defender procs, then someone isn't doing their job right, yes its nice to have as an "oh ****" button, but as others have said it will more than likely get nerfed

    Honestly don't reroll just because you think "this class has better things", find a class that you enjoy playing, and play it, don't just go by whats the best.
    The only legitimate thing you said was your last sentence.

    1. Those still add up to 11%. He was talking about potential. We have the potential to receive +11% more healing through talents. Whether or not a resto druid is there is not a valid argument when we are isolating the skills and talents of a warrior from a pally.

    2. Told him no it isn't right and then added the 3% Divine Plea glyph, making the 11% exactly the same as before.

    3. There are many instances where Divine Sacrifice is useful. Just because you are awful at bringing utility to your own raid doesn't mean someone else can't actually do a good job. You are speaking from strictly a MT, and single pally tank, type of raid. There are times when there are two pally tanks, as well as time when there is a pally as an OT, and in both cases a pally can find a use for reducing raidwide damage by a talented 40%. More often then not these are OT examples, but assuming you are gonna pallytank Vezax better than a DK or a Druid is a stretch. Auriaya, Freya, Mimiron, XT, Gluth, Grobbulus, Ignus (blow it for someone in the pot, who cares it helps), Onyxia, Vezax. Nearly all fights can benefit in some way from it, its just all about which pally pops it, and that paladin's job in the raid.

    4. 400 less damage is 400 less damage. It's as simple as that. Take that Holy Pally out of the picture (5 or a 10 man is probable), and YOU are the one with an improved Sacred Shield. This is all about bringing utility or surviviability (however small) when someone else can't. Like specing vindication when you regularly run without a feral druid or warrior in the group. Your justification is like saying no one should ever go with Hodir shoulder enchants because it's only 15 dodge. Yes it's "only" 15 dodge, but that is on top of the dodge you already have. It's "only" 400+ damage reduction ever few seconds, but that's on top of other mitigation talents.

    5. While you corrected the CD for this spell, yet again you miss the utility. A "bad" mechanic is broken. This mechanic simply requires a little finesse, which from your descriptions you lack the patience or understanding to use. I would not trade my 3-mob, 40 yard, friendly-targetable taunt for a warrior AoE taunt.

    6. Another gross assumption. The sheer numbers of different reasons why Ardent Defender can proc are way more complicated than you are trying to make it seem. A 2 second silence with a heavy hitting boss could be enough to proc it. Avoiding a class because of a "potential" nerf is just as asinine as rolling a FOTM class because it's OP. Many blue posts state that their opinion on Ardent Defender is that they are happy with it. The players complaining about AD are the same ones complaining about rogues when they got Cheat Death.

    You are talking like you have perfect raids where no one even bothers with talking on vent because everyone is so pr0 that you don't need to, and everyone heals 10k HPS and the DPS does 12k at all time and everything is easy. He already said his gear won't be the greatest, and if his gear isnt the greatest the instances he will be running will probably be with other players whose gear isn't the greatest. Chances are he won't be tagging along in Heroic TotGC being carried by his guild. He will progress through his gear, and while he does that he will progress through raid quality, gear, and composition as well.

    You can NOT say that he will always get a perfect heal, or that no one will ever pull aggro, or disconnect. Stop talking about this subject like there is this singularity where epicness converges, and talk like you shouldn't even have to spec into Ardent Defender at all because if you go under 35% "someone isn't doing their job", and you should never need that extra 20% reduced damage.

    The only someone who isn't doing their job is you. Be a competent and proactive tank.




    The only thing you were right about is that he should play the class he loves, even if another is better for the time being.

  9. #29

    Re: Gear my tankadin or stay with warrior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Parameter
    Oh hi I have only been playing my Warrior for hmm going on five years now, I def must fail, since i have less survivability through no fault of my own.
    Yep. You know what I'm talking about. Watching the pally/dk tank never go below 30% while I'm dropping to 10% on a regular basis, when they have very similar gear to me, makes me sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquid_Beaver
    He already said his gear won't be the greatest, and if his gear isnt the greatest the instances he will be running will probably be with other players whose gear isn't the greatest. Chances are he won't be tagging along in Heroic TotGC being carried by his guild. He will progress through his gear, and while he does that he will progress through raid quality, gear, and composition as well.

    You can NOT say that he will always get a perfect heal, or that no one will ever pull aggro, or disconnect. Stop talking about this subject like there is this singularity where epicness converges, and talk like you shouldn't even have to spec into Ardent Defender at all because if you go under 35% "someone isn't doing their job", and you should never need that extra 20% reduced damage.

    The only someone who isn't doing their job is you. Be a competent and proactive tank.
    Thankyou. This is pretty much what I was trying to say that but I guess it got lost in the noise. I'm not the MT of a raiding guild. I'm not talking about running with the same dedicated raiders every week. I'm running pugs when and if I can, hopefully with a few good players in critical roles but I take what I can get. I rarely run with a paladin OT so I don't get BoSanc, Imp Devotion Aura or any of that good stuff. Resto druid? Maybe once a month. I can't rely on getting any particular raid buff apart from maybe Fort and Kings. And if Ardent Defender gets me through an encounter despite having a sub-par tank healer, I'm all for it. Paladins are more pug friendly than warriors; they can survive with lower quality heals and there's more margin for error. Even in guild progression raids, a pally tank can make the difference if undergeared for the encounter. (And yes, I asked in guild and they wiped for a couple of weeks on Anub 25 Heroic with a warrior tank, swapped in a pally MT and downed it without further fuss. Same players, same skill, same gear. Their comment was "our warrior tank kept going splat, we could do it with him tanking now that we've got more 258 gear but not on progression attempts".)

    Regearing isn't a big issue because this game has gear resets every 3-6 months anyway. When 3.3 hits I'm going to be farming the EoTs for a full set of T9. It'll take the same effort to do it on my pally or on my warrior so no loss there. When Cataclysm hits it will reset gear again and if I miss my warrior (or if they equal out the differences in survivability) I'll swap him back in as my primary tank character.
    Ultralisk-Nagrand / Táne-Nagrand / Wuggles-Nagrand / Koras-Thaurrisan / Dieselsun-Thaurissan / Bezoar-Thaurissan

  10. #30
    High Overlord Silorn's Avatar
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    Re: Gear my tankadin or stay with warrior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquid_Beaver
    1. Those still add up to 11%. He was talking about potential. We have the potential to receive +11% more healing through talents. Whether or not a resto druid is there is not a valid argument when we are isolating the skills and talents of a warrior from a pally.

    2. Told him no it isn't right and then added the 3% Divine Plea glyph, making the 11% exactly the same as before.

    3. There are many instances where Divine Sacrifice is useful. Just because you are awful at bringing utility to your own raid doesn't mean someone else can't actually do a good job. You are speaking from strictly a MT, and single pally tank, type of raid. There are times when there are two pally tanks, as well as time when there is a pally as an OT, and in both cases a pally can find a use for reducing raidwide damage by a talented 40%. More often then not these are OT examples, but assuming you are gonna pallytank Vezax better than a DK or a Druid is a stretch. Auriaya, Freya, Mimiron, XT, Gluth, Grobbulus, Ignus (blow it for someone in the pot, who cares it helps), Onyxia, Vezax. Nearly all fights can benefit in some way from it, its just all about which pally pops it, and that paladin's job in the raid.

    4. 400 less damage is 400 less damage. It's as simple as that. Take that Holy Pally out of the picture (5 or a 10 man is probable), and YOU are the one with an improved Sacred Shield. This is all about bringing utility or surviviability (however small) when someone else can't. Like specing vindication when you regularly run without a feral druid or warrior in the group. Your justification is like saying no one should ever go with Hodir shoulder enchants because it's only 15 dodge. Yes it's "only" 15 dodge, but that is on top of the dodge you already have. It's "only" 400+ damage reduction ever few seconds, but that's on top of other mitigation talents.

    5. While you corrected the CD for this spell, yet again you miss the utility. A "bad" mechanic is broken. This mechanic simply requires a little finesse, which from your descriptions you lack the patience or understanding to use. I would not trade my 3-mob, 40 yard, friendly-targetable taunt for a warrior AoE taunt.

    6. Another gross assumption. The sheer numbers of different reasons why Ardent Defender can proc are way more complicated than you are trying to make it seem. A 2 second silence with a heavy hitting boss could be enough to proc it. Avoiding a class because of a "potential" nerf is just as asinine as rolling a FOTM class because it's OP. Many blue posts state that their opinion on Ardent Defender is that they are happy with it. The players complaining about AD are the same ones complaining about rogues when they got Cheat Death.

    You are talking like you have perfect raids where no one even bothers with talking on vent because everyone is so pr0 that you don't need to, and everyone heals 10k HPS and the DPS does 12k at all time and everything is easy. He already said his gear won't be the greatest, and if his gear isnt the greatest the instances he will be running will probably be with other players whose gear isn't the greatest. Chances are he won't be tagging along in Heroic TotGC being carried by his guild. He will progress through his gear, and while he does that he will progress through raid quality, gear, and composition as well.

    You can NOT say that he will always get a perfect heal, or that no one will ever pull aggro, or disconnect. Stop talking about this subject like there is this singularity where epicness converges, and talk like you shouldn't even have to spec into Ardent Defender at all because if you go under 35% "someone isn't doing their job", and you should never need that extra 20% reduced damage.

    The only someone who isn't doing their job is you. Be a competent and proactive tank.




    The only thing you were right about is that he should play the class he loves, even if another is better for the time being.
    Okay... first of all, sorry if i sounded harsh or just plain wrong, but I was taking the actual tree into consideration writing it:

    With that 11% "potential" aswell as full Divine Guardian specced into, he can no longer reach everything he said in his original post (yes, he'll get those 2, but by getting those his threat will not be a huge amount better than his warriors without touching crusade)

    I said it's still the same amount of damage reduction, i just corrected where we got it from

    Ok, i'll admit I was a bit harsh about Divine Sacrifice, I was just saying that the few times that its actually worth using, I'm tanking something, I suppose everything helps but as far as using it on things such as Auriaya, I've never needed to, it just wasn't necessary

    That small amount of mitigation helps, but I was just showing how small the actual benefit was, and as far as I'm concerned this doesn't mean enough to actually reroll for the benefit of it

    The 40 yard range on taunt... I don't think theres ever been a situation where I could use it to the max range unless my dps were deciding to run the opposite direction with the mob, and as far as the friendly targetable part goes, if the mob switches target to cast something at the same time as you hit taunt, you don't gain any threat and its wasted, or you may even pull a mob off another tank that your not supposed to

    I didn't say that the 20% damage reduction is useless, i said if it actually procced (ie. absorbed a killing blow on me), its nice to have but it shouldn't be something that you reroll for as far as progression goes, alot of people believe it will get nerfed, only extremely top end guilds (ie. anub hard mode 25) will choose a main tank specifically for one encounter, pretty much every other encounter is fine as far as tank balancing goes.

    OK, he'll never get a perfect setup, he'll never get a perfect heal, he'll never have a guarantee that no-one will disconnect, but as far as I'm concerned thats what every tank has to deal with, but rerolling for 5% guaranteed reduction, 11% healing taken (which most people consider as wasted overhealing), a raid wide damage cooldown (which has been confirmed as to getting nerfed in 3.3), or a talent that most people believe will be getting nerfed soon anyway, is wrong.

    You can try to convince me I'm wrong all you want, but as far as I'm concerned rerolling because of some differences, and not because you want to play a class you enjoy, is wrong, as if people want to reroll from Resto Shaman to Holy paladin because they have better mana/healing capabilities for tank healing.

    If the OP was talking from a strictly off-off-tank point of view I can understand that he thought everything was beneficial, but you will never get an encounter where every one of those bonuses are useful

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