Why

[Prophecy]

Just wondering what do warriors have that other tanks don't have. I don't understand why a warrior is the only class that cannot AOE tank for shit. Tanking Heroic 25 man TOC last night. Paladins where taking 3-4k less damage than me with every melee hit I just don't understand it. After looking through there talent trees I noticed they have like 4 different talents that reduce damage taken by X%. I don't get why one tank should be so much better than another.

[Goatonlb]

I wouldn't say that. A warrior has abilities they need to use on CD to ensure the same dmg reduction (Shield Block etc.). Guilds use every type of tank in the game and are still able to beat hardmodes.

[Gredge]

Just wondering what do warriors have that other tanks don't have. I don't understand why a warrior is the only class that cannot AOE tank for shit. Tanking Heroic 25 man TOC last night. Paladins where taking 3-4k less damage than me with every melee hit I just don't understand it. After looking through there talent trees I noticed they have like 4 different talents that reduce damage taken by X%. I don't get why one tank should be so much better than another.

My main spec is fury and I can aoe tank as prot just fine. Maybe its you?

But I do agree that we take more dmg than pallies overall. Hell we have to Talent and Glyph and NERF our Shieldwall just to get it to 2 mins, Pallies already get a 2 min one : /

[Shelly]

1. If you can't AoE tank well as a warrior then you're probably doing it wrong. Tab, cleave, thunderclap and shockwave are your friends.

2. Armory link, if the other tanks are taking that less damage on every melee hit it would help if you actually posted your armory and theirs so we could compare.

Off the top of my head I can think of several reasons why, but some of those are mechanical but here's what's probably going on.

Increase your shield block rating and keep your block up more often. What's probably happening is that they are blocking almost every hit and you are not. My guess is when you actually have shield block up if you have a reasonable BV (which isn't hard with all the BV on ToC and Ulduar gear) then you actually take far less damage.

The best way you could increase your block value while not giving up dodge and parry would be to increase your defense rating. Go above the 540, you'll get far nicer avoidance and mitigation gains than simply trying to cap your dodge and hitting the DR wall.

You can also have your healadin - or even a good retadin - keep sacred shield up on you as well. That will smooth out more of the damage you take as well.

[bigblack23]

Just wondering what do warriors have that other tanks don't have.

Sunders (the best debuff in the game)

./end thread

[Prophecy]

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...g+Blade&n=Vara --- < me
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...lade&n=Alttair ---- <her

granted her gear is alot better but I don't see how she would take 3-4k less damage than me per hit. Unless it sums up to Protadin > Warrior

And yes I am Always keeping Shield block up. What I don't get is why is a paladins shield block only a 8 second cooldown. Also as far as AOE tanking I am talking about for example the adds on razorscale. A paladin can just stand there aoe and dps can go ape shit. I t-clap cleaving shockwave on CD and mobs are running everywhere. Not saying we can't aoe tank at all, just saying we are far inferior than the other 3 tanks.

[Xenryusho]

"Area-of-Effect Damage Caps: We’ve redesigned the way area damage is capped when hitting many targets. Instead of a hard cap on total damage done, the game now caps the total damage done at a value equal to the damage the spell would do if it hit 10 targets. In other words, if a spell does 1000 damage to each target, it would hit up to 10 targets for 1000 each, but with more than 10 targets, each target would take 1000 damage divided by the number of targets. 20 targets would be hit for 500 damage each in that example."

So now even if TC hits something before going on cooldown, if it hits too our threat on those adds will still suck!

Seriously, warriors don't have great aoe threat. And when we could have good aoe threat, we have to seriously bust our asses for it.

"What I do is I either heroic throw or charge in depending on the situation. I thunder clap and then if there is alot of dps, then I shield block and then slam one target to proc glyph of blocking. Then I span devastate and cleave tabbing between each target to ensure that different ones are hit each time. When shield block wears off I hit shockwave, hitting TC whenever it's up and shield slam only to get back low threat mobs or refresh glyph of blocking. If the dps isn't so great I shockwave first and then shield block and shield slam when shockwave ends doing the same thing with cleave and devastate. I don't bother using a GCD on Demo should I find it's not enough threat unless I'm taking too much damage and need to mitigate more.. " <----How I AoE tank. (incase that may help even in the least bit, I just copy paste it around. In addition you could try to use retaliation when nothings on you before switching back to def stance.)

If you're in a situation like razorscale or Onxyia whelps then I'd just blow one cooldown at a time trying to hold with demo shout for as long as possible and pull back with challenging shout until all the whelps finish coming from the caves or w/e and you know all your skills will hit all of them.

Other then that there's really nothing you could do to come close to other tanks in terms of AoE tanking.

Paladin's shield block originally required them to have a lot more avoidances and block then us to avoid crushing blows, however it also did damage. Now crushing blows are gone blizzard kept the paladins block the same and redesigned ours to give us burst damage on shield slams along with a 100% chance to block. This however gave us the short end of the stick, especially since the nerf to damage on shield slam. I guess 1/100 chance to kill someone with 0 resilience when the stars align meant we were too OP...

^ Anyway, referring back to my last paragraph paladins basically mitigate their block value on every physical hit if they keep their combined avoidances/block at 104% with their holy shield up, while warriors don't (which is why they take 3-4k less damage).

To the guy who said sunders, dps warriors can apply them as well, btw..

[Prophecy]

"Area-of-Effect Damage Caps: We’ve redesigned the way area damage is capped when hitting many targets. Instead of a hard cap on total damage done, the game now caps the total damage done at a value equal to the damage the spell would do if it hit 10 targets. In other words, if a spell does 1000 damage to each target, it would hit up to 10 targets for 1000 each, but with more than 10 targets, each target would take 1000 damage divided by the number of targets. 20 targets would be hit for 500 damage each in that example."

So now even if TC hits something before going on cooldown, if it hits too our threat on those adds will still suck!

Seriously, warriors don't have great aoe threat. And when we could have good aoe threat, we have to seriously bust our asses for it.

"What I do is I either heroic throw or charge in depending on the situation. I thunder clap and then if there is alot of dps, then I shield block and then slam one target to proc glyph of blocking. Then I span devastate and cleave tabbing between each target to ensure that different ones are hit each time. When shield block wears off I hit shockwave, hitting TC whenever it's up and shield slam only to get back low threat mobs or refresh glyph of blocking. If the dps isn't so great I shockwave first and then shield block and shield slam when shockwave ends doing the same thing with cleave and devastate. I don't bother using a GCD on Demo should I find it's not enough threat unless I'm taking too much damage and need to mitigate more.. " <----How I AoE tank. (incase that may help even in the least bit, I just copy paste it around. In addition you could try to use retaliation when nothings on you before switching back to def stance.)

If you're in a situation like razorscale or Onxyia whelps then I'd just blow one cooldown at a time trying to hold with demo shout for as long as possible and pull back with challenging shout until all the whelps finish coming from the caves or w/e and you know all your skills will hit all of them.

Other then that there's really nothing you could do to come close to other tanks in terms of AoE tanking.

Paladin's shield block originally required them to have a lot more avoidances and block then us to avoid crushing blows, however it also did damage. Now crushing blows are gone blizzard kept the paladins block the same and redesigned ours to give us burst damage on shield slams along with a 100% chance to block. This however gave us the short end of the stick, especially since the nerf to damage on shield slam. I guess 1/100 chance to kill someone with 0 resilience when the stars align meant we were too OP...

^ Anyway, referring back to my last paragraph paladins basically mitigate their block value on every physical hit if they keep their combined avoidances/block at 104% with their holy shield up, while warriors don't (which is why they take 3-4k less damage).

To the guy who said sunders, dps warriors can apply them as well, btw..

Finally a real comment thanks so much bro I appreciate all the information :P

[Xenryusho]

Np, sorry if I through too much useless stuff your way. The best thing to do is to keep trucking and hope our AoE is put on the same level as everyone else's.

[treston323]

Blood DKs can't aoe for shit either.

[Shelly]

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...g+Blade&n=Vara --- < me
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...lade&n=Alttair ---- <her

granted her gear is alot better but I don't see how she would take 3-4k less damage than me per hit. Unless it sums up to Protadin > Warrior

And yes I am Always keeping Shield block up. What I don't get is why is a paladins shield block only a 8 second cooldown. Also as far as AOE tanking I am talking about for example the adds on razorscale. A paladin can just stand there aoe and dps can go ape shit. I t-clap cleaving shockwave on CD and mobs are running everywhere. Not saying we can't aoe tank at all, just saying we are far inferior than the other 3 tanks.

Unfortunately they are in their Ret spec so I can't really make the best comparison.

As for your gear and enchants, you are working too hard on stamina and not enough on avoidance. Change out at least one trinket for something with avoidance our mitigation, change your shoulder enchant to the defense rating one for more avoidance, get a 2nd profession for cryin' out loud and in your spec drop booming voice and improved revenge, put 3 into focused rage and your last point to another tick of deep wounds.

For gathering things up, use TC first, then use your block/slam macro, this will get a bunch of mobs on you and will start rolling up aggro from damage shield. Move with the mob while tab cleaving and devastating (put your cleave and heroic strike to keys you can quickly reach to always keep them tabbed up), then hit shockwave at about 4-seconds in, then when the last of the group is showing up TC should be ready again. Don't rely so much on challenging shout or demo-shout to gain AoE aggro. Neither of them are that great.

Now the problem with AoE aggro for warriors is that it's not easy, but neither is it "zomg! This is so hard! Why do we suck so much!" I know it can be frustrating but once you get it down pat it's a hell of a lot more fun than just sitting there with holy shield up and keeping consecrate down while hammering away. It's enjoyable to be the guy in the fight rather than the guy sleep-rolling on the trash.

Also either change out the Glyph of Revenge for the Glyph of Sunder Armor or the Glyph of Cleaving. Either one will increase your AoE threat by quite a bit.

[Ultralisk]

For gathering things up, use TC first, then use your block/slam macro, this will get a bunch of mobs on you and will start rolling up aggro from damage shield. Move with the mob while tab cleaving and devastating (put your cleave and heroic strike to keys you can quickly reach to always keep them tabbed up), then hit shockwave at about 4-seconds in, then when the last of the group is showing up TC should be ready again. Don't rely so much on challenging shout or demo-shout to gain AoE aggro. Neither of them are that great.

Maybe I just don't have as much block value as you but I tend to get better results using Shockwave first. Pull with heroic throw on the furthest caster in the group, then charge the nearest. Thunderclap when they're all in range, then back pedal for a second or so (the only legit. use of back peddling in the game IMO :P ) so that they're in a nice group in front of you, and Shockwave. Count to four, *then* pop Shield Block which will (a) double the damage they get from Damage Shields, and (b) give you a full rage bar in about 3 seconds (5 rage from every swing at you) letting you spam cleave (Glyph of Cleaving ftw) for the duration of the shield block. Thunderclap on cooldown and throw out random devastates / shield slams / whatever. If some AoE class is high enough to pull threat, Vigilance them.

Edit: Forgot to say my main point, which was: very solid advice.

[Shelly]

Maybe I just don't have as much block value as you but I tend to get better results using Shockwave first. Pull with heroic throw on the furthest caster in the group, then charge the nearest. Thunderclap when they're all in range, then back pedal for a second or so (the only legit. use of back peddling in the game IMO :P ) so that they're in a nice group in front of you, and Shockwave. Count to four, *then* pop Shield Block which will (a) double the damage they get from Damage Shields, and (b) give you a full rage bar in about 3 seconds (5 rage from every swing at you) letting you spam cleave (Glyph of Cleaving ftw) for the duration of the shield block. Thunderclap on cooldown and throw out random devastates / shield slams / whatever. If some AoE class is high enough to pull threat, Vigilance them.

Edit: Forgot to say my main point, which was: very solid advice.

Actually you probably have FAR greater BV than I do. I haven't raided in months.

Anyway, the reason I prioritized TC over shockwave right away was that shockwave needs the positioning and TC is just great snap aggro.

And I agree with heroic throw on furthest caster, then charge + shield bash the next caster but you don't really run into groups like that very often. Mostly I spend my time charging from group to group and laughing as my healers scream at me to slow down.

Demo shout is not great snap aggro, maybe the threat coefficient has gone up but last I checked it barely got over healer aggro. I'm just throwing this out there because with glyph of sunder you get better aoe spamming sunder for your GCD while hitting cleave over spamming demo shout.

Oh and Xen, regarding the upcoming rules on how AoE damage will be split I'm not entirely sure that will effect TC, however it will effect glyphed cleave.

Which isn't to say I couldn't be wronger than spiking the punch at your 8-year-old sister's birthday party to make it easier to hook up with her hot 7-year-old friend, it's that TC doesn't split damage over a group (at least not last time I checked) rather it hits everyone for X amount, whereas Cleave splits the amount of damage over however many enemies it hits.

I can't be bothered to check and see if I'm wrong or not on that and don't feel like paying $15 just to test it out. Someone care to spot check me? I'm a little busy, lord knows this porn just doesn't view itself!

[Alianthos]

Maybe I just don't have as much block value as you but I tend to get better results using Shockwave first. Pull with heroic throw on the furthest caster in the group, then charge the nearest. Thunderclap when they're all in range, then back pedal for a second or so (the only legit. use of back peddling in the game IMO :P ) so that they're in a nice group in front of you, and Shockwave. Count to four, *then* pop Shield Block which will (a) double the damage they get from Damage Shields, and (b) give you a full rage bar in about 3 seconds (5 rage from every swing at you) letting you spam cleave (Glyph of Cleaving ftw) for the duration of the shield block. Thunderclap on cooldown and throw out random devastates / shield slams / whatever. If some AoE class is high enough to pull threat, Vigilance them.

Yep. This. I do exactly the same, I think it's the best cycle for multitanking. After the shockwave, i usually fast-Tab and check Omen, focus on the mobs with smallest aggro from me, 1 slam and 1 devastate on them and tab again.