Swift Retribution

[Xylia]

just felt like saying this,

Swift Retribution Rank 3
Your auras also increase casting, ranged and melee attack speeds by 3%.

http://wowhead.com/?spell=53648

40 point requirement, if you were to compare with other class talents you'll find that they also have an additional effect.

does anyone else agree that it's a big under budgeted for it's placement in the retribution talent tree? it should be merged with another talent or given an additional effect?

[Zikron]

Short answer: no
Long answer: no, since you 1) bring a lot of buffs to a group already so I guess they take that into account
2) Retribution is not a build that is tight on talent points, so you can afford to spend 3 on that. I guess they take that insto account too.

[Spamor]

it´s not a bad talent it could be more but the buff it brings is rar so im ok with it

[zcks]

Compared to other classes yes it is a bit crappy for effects that benefit you, but when you take into account the +3% haste raid wide it becomes very useful.
As far as changes go were not likely to see many before the next expansion. Hopefully then we will see allot of them.
I know many of my fellow ret paladins that do pvp are hoping they give us some offensive tools & from what changes they have shown for the mastery system it should be much easier to balance us and give us more variety in what we can do depending upon how we spent those points.

[Deleted]

Idd, have plenty of talents to spend, so i dont rlly mind spending 3 in that

[Ronark]

just felt like saying this,

Swift Retribution Rank 3
Your auras also increase casting, ranged and melee attack speeds by 3%.

http://wowhead.com/?spell=53648

40 point requirement, if you were to compare with other class talents you'll find that they also have an additional effect.

does anyone else agree that it's a big under budgeted for it's placement in the retribution talent tree? it should be merged with another talent or given an additional effect?

My original 3.2 idea:

Swift Retribution: Moved to tier 7. In addition, this talent will now also reduce the cooldown on your Exorcism and Repentance spells by 11/22/33%

[Lebeau]

They've said repeatedly that the location in a tree doesn't denote a talent's "strength". They place abilities where they do in trees to:

-determine one's strength at various levels in the game. Since you only have X talents points available at any given level, there's only so far you can move down a particular tree.

*and*

-Restrict OP builds from coming into existence. This is often met with them moving talents up and down in trees to make them either more or less accessible to other trees/builds (ie: Infusion of Light, Judgements of the Pure, Judgements of the Wise, and Divine Purpose to name a few).

[Deleted]

Well, you don't have to take it. I didn't, it's only maybe 1% DPS increase for you so not noticeable. There are better things to take than that.

[Adamson]

Well, you don't have to take it. I didn't, it's only maybe 1% DPS increase for you so not noticeable. There are better things to take than that.

Every raiding ret can afford the 3 points. It's not about the ret either, it's a raidwide 3% haste.

[ramboxmb]

lololol Ret is probably the less bloated talent tree in the game so no we dont need to merge it with another talent.

[Deleted]

Every raiding ret can afford the 3 points. It's not about the ret either, it's a raidwide 3% haste.

Arcane Empowerment: This talent now also grants 1/2/3% increased damage done by the mage’s party or raid for 10 seconds after the mage gets a critical strike with Arcane Explosion, Arcane Missiles, Arcane Barrage, or Arcane Blast. This effect is exclusive with Ferocious Inspiration and Sanctified Retribution.

Every arcane mage has it after 3.3 and I'm not sure about ferals but obviously theirs is actually an useful talent too. You don't need to take that for the raid.

[Sartecho]

Arcane Empowerment: This talent now also grants 1/2/3% increased damage done by the mage’s party or raid for 10 seconds after the mage gets a critical strike with Arcane Explosion, Arcane Missiles, Arcane Barrage, or Arcane Blast. This effect is exclusive with Ferocious Inspiration and Sanctified Retribution.

Every arcane mage has it after 3.3 and I'm not sure about ferals but obviously theirs is actually an useful talent too. You don't need to take that for the raid.

That's an entirely different talent. We're talking about the haste talent, not the +dmg talent.

On topic: Blizzard has us balanced where they want us. If they buffed Swift Retribution, they'd likely nerf us somewhere else. What's the point in that?

[Lebeau]

Arcane Empowerment: This talent now also grants 1/2/3% increased damage done by the mage’s party or raid for 10 seconds after the mage gets a critical strike with Arcane Explosion, Arcane Missiles, Arcane Barrage, or Arcane Blast. This effect is exclusive with Ferocious Inspiration and Sanctified Retribution.

Every arcane mage has it after 3.3 and I'm not sure about ferals but obviously theirs is actually an useful talent too. You don't need to take that for the raid.

Swift retribution and Sanctified Retribution are two entirely different talents. Swift is 3% Raidwide haste, Sanct is 3% raidwide damage.

I don't know which is worse: That you think Swift is a bad talent, that you dont have points for it, or that you don't even know the difference between what your own talents do.

No wonder people have such terrible opinions of the people that play our class.

[Deleted]

Swift retribution and Sanctified Retribution are two entirely different talents. Swift is 3% Raidwide haste, Sanct is 3% raidwide damage.

I don't know which is worse: That you think Swift is a bad talent, that you dont have points for it, or that you don't even know the difference between what your own talents do.

No wonder people have such terrible opinions of the people that play our class.

Yea, youre right, I must have misread something. It doesn't mean I'm wrong though. 3% haste is much less than 3% DPS increase for 3 points, which is very, very bad. As for the group utility, they sayd they'll get rid of all those talents and add a selfish part to them worth taking as well. They've already done it to most if not all other such talents.

[Ronark]

Yea, youre right, I must have misread something. It doesn't mean I'm wrong though. 3% haste is much less than 3% DPS increase for 3 points, which is very, very bad. As for the group utility, they sayd they'll get rid of all those talents and add a selfish part to them worth taking as well. They've already done it to most if not all other such talents.

The good example is the Moonkin's version of our talent:

Improved Moonkin Form

[belfpala]

Short answer: no
Long answer: no, since you 1) bring a lot of buffs to a group already so I guess they take that into account
2) Retribution is not a build that is tight on talent points, so you can afford to spend 3 on that. I guess they take that insto account too.

Response:

1. Ret paladins provide no buffs that can't be provided by another spec.
2. Regardless of whether they take the "tightness" of our tree into account, it's an underwhelming talent. We take it because there are no other PvE DPS options, not because we like it. There was discussion early in WotLK about whether it was a talent that should be taken at all. The consensus eventually became: take it, because we have nothing else to take.

[Wonderboy]

My original 3.2 idea:

Swift Retribution: Moved to tier 7. In addition, this talent will now also reduce the cooldown on your Exorcism and Repentance spells by 11/22/33%

Only problem with this is that no matter what tier its in we have the points to pick it up, so moving tier doesn't actually accomplish anything and an exorcism CD reduction does little for most pve paladins as its generally left until everything else is on CD anyway. With 3.3 tier set bonus aswell i doubt exorcism will get used much at all as DS effectively becomes a 4s CD if it makes it live. Repentance is ok but again its a pvp utility as theres little to no benefit of the shorter CD in pve.

Saying that i think this is certainly an interesting change for pvp retri's, trying to give something worth spending points on and might make it worth taking points out from another tree. PvE though, this does nothing.

[Ronark]

Only problem with this is that no matter what tier its in we have the points to pick it up, so moving tier doesn't actually accomplish anything and an exorcism CD reduction does little for most pve paladins as its generally left until everything else is on CD anyway. With 3.3 tier set bonus aswell i doubt exorcism will get used much at all as DS effectively becomes a 4s CD if it makes it live. Repentance is ok but again its a pvp utility as theres little to no benefit of the shorter CD in pve.

Saying that i think this is certainly an interesting change for pvp retri's, trying to give something worth spending points on and might make it worth taking points out from another tree. PvE though, this does nothing.

First, this was taken from my re-made talent tree (found here) when 3.2 first came out on the PTRs.

Second: The Exorcism helps for PvE and soloing a bit, but it is still mainly for PvP. The reduced CD would help on some fights where Exorcism has priority over Consecration (This is when it is against UD or Demon mobs, which is mostly all of ICC).

[Zikron]

Response:

1. Ret paladins provide no buffs that can't be provided by another spec.
2. Regardless of whether they take the "tightness" of our tree into account, it's an underwhelming talent. We take it because there are no other PvE DPS options, not because we like it. There was discussion early in WotLK about whether it was a talent that should be taken at all. The consensus eventually became: take it, because we have nothing else to take.

There is no such thing as exclusive buff anymore, with the exception of Kings. Rets however are true buff-utility powerhouses. I won't bother to list all of the stuff we bring to a raid, because they really a lot. Retribution has a lot of juicy talent choices as well, so my point was: it may be below-par, but we have somef above-par choices as well, we have nothing else to take that we skip in order to get that so there is no need to complain about that. Heck, a lot of peopel could complain about their 21-pointer compared to sanctified retribution, but comparing same tier of talents is not really accurate or means anything really.

Bottom line: we scale great, we do solid DPS and we make every raid happy to have a couple of ret's because of the spells we bring along. Why complain?

[Ronark]

There is no such thing as exclusive buff anymore, with the exception of Kings. Rets however are true buff-utility powerhouses. I won't bother to list all of the stuff we bring to a raid, because they really a lot. Retribution has a lot of juicy talent choices as well, so my point was: it may be below-par, but we have somef above-par choices as well, we have nothing else to take that we skip in order to get that so there is no need to complain about that. Heck, a lot of peopel could complain about their 21-pointer compared to sanctified retribution, but comparing same tier of talents is not really accurate or means anything really.

Bottom line: we scale great, we do solid DPS and we make every raid happy to have a couple of ret's because of the spells we bring along. Why complain?

Bloodlust/Heroism, Mark of the Wild, Wrath of Air Totem, PW: Fort, Kings, and JoLight/Wisdom are the only unique buffs/debuffs in game.

As for the last part, its more of a "Class X and Y have a bonus on the talents that does the same thing, so I want one too!" type deal.